Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah?

Robban

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For the ancient Egyptians a sheep was a god,
The god Khnum was one of the principal gods of Egypt,

his image is that of a man with a rams head.

They held sheep to be sacred as the image of their deity.


So it was a risky buisness to take a lamb into one,s house for four days,
when an Egyptian passed by asked what they intended to do with their god,

"We are going to slaughter it."

So by saying of a man, he is the lamb of God,

may give certain connections negative or positive or whatever,

Maybe something to take into consderation.
 
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Eliyahu52

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Bs"d

What Christianity and the NT does with Isaiah 53 is what they do with many texts from the Hebrew Bible; they rip it out of context, mistranslate it, and then claim that it is a messianic prophecy.

Many examples of that can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies
 
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ewq1938

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Bs"d

What Christianity and the NT does with Isaiah 53 is what they do with many texts from the Hebrew Bible; they rip it out of context, mistranslate it, and then claim that it is a messianic prophecy.


Nope. They keep it in context (as I did and not a single person disputed my post), the translation is perfectly correct, and it literally describes a man giving his life for Israel and their sins which is literally the description of a Saviour.

Christians have understood the chapter properly, Jews failed to understand it properly and thus did in fact fail to identify the Messiah.
 
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Eliyahu52

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Nope. They keep it in context (as I did and not a single person disputed my post), the translation is perfectly correct, and it literally describes a man giving his life for Israel and their sins which is literally the description of a Saviour.

Christians have understood the chapter properly, Jews failed to understand it properly and thus did in fact fail to identify the Messiah.
Bs"d

In the Hebrew Bible is no concept of a messiah or a savior who is going to die for the sins of all mankind and so remove all the sins of mankind.

Just doesn't exist.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."

Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible
 
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ewq1938

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Bs"d

In the Hebrew Bible is no concept of a messiah or a savior who is going to die for the sins of all mankind and so remove all the sins of mankind.

Just doesn't exist.


Except in the very passage we are discussing...a man does die for the sins of others and those others are Israel. I understand you were taught differently but it's literally right there is black and white. Defend tradition or move forward much as the kids say?
 
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Eliyahu52

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Except in the very passage we are discussing...a man does die for the sins of others and those others are Israel. I understand you were taught differently but it's literally right there is black and white. Defend tradition or move forward much as the kids say?
Bs"d

In Isaiah a man, the servant of God, is dying for the sins of Israel.

So who is that servant?

NOWHERE in Isaiah, and NOWHERE in the whole Tanach is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God".

So who is that servant of God of Isaiah?

We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:

Isaiah 41:8: “But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”

Isaiah 44:1-2; “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.”


Isaiah 44:21; “Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me


Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”


Isaiah 48:20; “The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.”


Isaiah 49:3; “And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”


The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.
 
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DennisTate

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Just a caution....... teaching dogmatically that Israel is Messiah the Passover Lamb........
can cause this to tend to come to pass!

Having an open mind toward the idea that a human may perhaps have became Messiah the Passover Lamb two thousand years ago...... could take the nation of Israel off the hook for that much less than fun role in prophecy??????

We should be careful what we teach ....... because there is power in our words!

Former Atheist and near death experiencer Howard Storm Ph. D. asked about the Holocaust during his NDE:

Howard Storm Ph. D:
"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."

I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart. The anguish that Jesus was suffering at the slaughter of his people was too much for me to bear and I begged that we leave this place. I will never forget this: his anguish at this horror and what it represents. This was one of the low points in human history."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)





This is a spin off from the ongoing 'I have a question directed towards Muslims' thread.
I want to thank LoAmmi for providing this link to a certain exposition of Isaiah chapters 52-54 to which I want to respond.

http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf

Going through this study it's often felt like entering someone's living room for the first time, sitting down and looking around. I've been allowed to see into a world view and a theology which was previously unknown to me.

The writer's thesis is that the “My Servant” of Isaiah 53:13, and all references concerning this servant throughout Isaiah 52-54, speak only of the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Straight away I'm wondering if the writer believes there are mentions of the Messiah in other parts of Isaiah? For I assume that he believes that a Messiah is to come as foretold in his Bible.
The writer uses two principle lines of argument to establish his understanding of the text.

1- a contextual argument - that chapters 52 and 54 are all about the people of Israel, that Isaiah elsewhere clearly speaks of the people of Israel as being God's servant, so ipso facto everything between, referring to God's servant, is speaking only of the people of Israel as a collective.


2- linguistic arguments - principally that in Hebrew masculine singular pronouns, verbal forms and suffixes can quite properly be used to refer to a collective.


The contextual argument
On his first page the writer says of Isaiah 52:13-53:12, “When placed within its proper context, however, it is clear that this passage is not talking about events that took place around the year 30 of the Common Era. It is rather, a prophecy of the end of the age and of the coming redemption of the Jewish people from their exile in the world.”
To the writer, “it is clear” but I find nothing in the context or the text or his explaining of it that makes it clear that this passage is only about, “the coming redemption of the Jewish people”. Throughout Isaiah and all the other prophets God gives many prophecies. Some are clearer than others, some are so unclear that probably we will only properly understand them when 'all is revealed' and to God will be the glory. Sometimes The Lord gives more than one prophecy in a portion and sometimes one prophecy may have shadow fulfillments over the course of His Story before the complete fulfillment. Consider Jacob's words to his sons in Genesis 49. Here in the context of many different prophecies, mainly concerning the different tribes of Israel (collectives personified), are found at least two that can be taken to speak of an individual person that could be The Messiah (verses 10 and 24).

Although the prophecies in chapter 54 easily read as a natural progression from 52 and 53 there is nothing in them that would dictate that the previous prophecies could not be about an individual. Only in the last verse of 54 are servants, plural, mentioned. The logic of the contextual argument would be for this last verse to speak of servant in the singular. It is of interest to note that in Isaiah after 53:11 servant is never used again in the singular.

Chapter 52 is certainly part of the context of the disputed passage. Not least because the passage begins in this chapter. Also there is the first use (in 52 and 53) of singular, third person, masculine in verses 6 and 7. In verse 6 God speaks of Himself. In verse 7 a messenger bringing good news is spoken of.
The writer on page 5 of his exposition says of verse 7,
“Here the pronoun forms are unimportant in our investigation.”
How so, unimportant? His argument is that in the text being considered “the messenger” should always be understood as the people Israel. The mention of “a messenger” in Isaiah chapter 41:27 using the same third person, masculine, singular, construed word is clearly speaking of an individual person. The beginning of chapter 52 starts out addressing Zion, Jerusalem, My people but then awkwardly, according to the writers understanding, in verse 7 those being spoken to, the collective, are also the messenger who comes to them bringing good news.

The writer wants to use Isaiah 40:9 to support this interpretation of 52:7.
In Isaiah 40:9 there is no awkwardness or uncertainty. In the confines of one verse Zion and Jerusalem are told by God to be messengers to the cities of Judah and are given the message to give, “Your God reigns”.
In 52:7 the messenger is unnamed but is said to be the one giving this same message to Zion. Linking the messenger of verse 7 to Zion and Jerusalem in verse 1 in the context of this whole passage is strained and awkward.
There is a link between the 40:9, 41:27 and 52:7 on which it is very profitable to meditate but the link is not that Israel, the messenger people are the same as Israel (a Prince with God), the messenger sent by God to His people and from there to all the people of this world.

To close our examination of the contextual argument let us look at the occurrences of “My servant” in the whole book of Isaiah, which is the context for chapters 52-54. The first three occurrences of “My servant” refer to individuals; Isaiah in 20:3, Eliakim son of Hilkiah in 22:20, David in 37:35. Then in 41:8,9 “My servant” is - Israel, Jacob, descendants of Abraham. The meaning of all these names and how they link together helps illuminate our understanding of Isaiah's prophecies.

In chapters 43 to 48 all mentions of “My servant” clearly refer to the collective of Israel, Jacob.
But in chapter 42 (verses 1 and 9) no collective is specified and, as with 52:13, the exclamation, “Behold! My Servant” starts a descriptive passage which is much more easily read as referring to an individual than to a collective. Verses 18-20 is a wonderful portion, difficult to grasp, but seeming to be a meeting of, and an interplay between, the two Messenger Servants, The Messiah and his people.

Again the first seven verses of chapter 49 read much more naturally as speaking of an individual, an individual sent to bring back Jacob and Israel to God (verse5). The awkwardness of verse 3 referring to The Servant as Israel disappears if the name Israel is read in that verse as referring to The Messiah (a prince with God). We know that a play with names is often used throughout the holy scriptures.

The last use of 'servant' in the singular before the the passage under discussion is in chapter 50:10. In the majority of this chapter it is The Servant who speaks in the first person singular. Again, the natural reading of this is that an individual is speaking not a collective.

There is nothing in the context of Isaiah to establish that all mentions of “My Servant” refer only to the people of Israel. However there is much in the context that would support that “My Servant” refers to both the people of Israel and The Messiah.

I conclude this post here.
God willing, I intend to do a second post on the linked exposition of Isaiah 52-54, addressing the writer's linguistic justifications of his argument and what seems to be his theology concerning suffering, sacrifice and redemption.

I would ask that any responses to this thread keep as close as possible to the topic and that we avoid sidetracking.

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