Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I said to which you're replying the above...

As long as we have, abide in, believe, follow, THE SON, we have eternal life.
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However, the eternal life goes into effect at our death. If we had it now, we'd never die.
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Right now we have an ABUNDANT LIFE. Which is what YOU always talk about.
John 10:10

Regarding your 1st statement above: there are no verses that say this. There are plenty of verses that say whoever believes HAS eternal life.

Regarding your 2nd statement above: Jesus said eternal life is a present tense possession for whoever believes.

Regarding your 3rd statement above: having a more abundant life is realized only when the believer lives by means of the Spirit from the new nature. Otherwise, they are living by their own will power, or power of the flesh, from their sin nature.

So, my question is, and I do ask it A LOT and never get a good reply...
What's wrong with good works/deeds?
Are they a bad thing?

There is nothing wrong with good works and deeds. Every believer will be judged according to what they've done, per 2 Cor 5:10.

They are a "bad thing" IF they are done in the energy of the flesh (will power) in the hope that they will earn the doer salvation.

That's what Matt 7:23 is about.

Acts 10:37-38
Are we imitators of Christ?

Only when we are filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the Spirit (Gal 5:16).

Galatians 6:9-10
Paul agrees with Jesus.

Yes, in everything. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never die, and Paul said the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

They sure did.

But so many people don't believe either of them.

Instead, they believe the opposite of what Jesus and Paul taught.

 

[Doug Melven]

As long as we have, abide in, believe, follow, THE SON, we have eternal life.
↑
However, the eternal life goes into effect at our death. If we had it now, we'd never die.
↑
Right now we have an ABUNDANT LIFE. Which is what YOU always talk about.
John 10:10

So, my question is, and I do ask it A LOT and never get a good reply...
What's wrong with good works/deeds?
Are they a bad thing?

The eternal life we have is not in our bodies or souls.
It is in our spirit, which is what God made alive in Ephesians 2.
Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.
We need to work this out into our souls and bodies. Philippians 2:12 does not mean we are to work for our salvation, it means to work it out like you have something inside of something else and you work it out.
We can't work something out that we don't possess.
That abundant life we have is called in the Greek zoe

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This abundant life is only possible if Jesus gave us the zoe life first.
Good works are profitable, we should do them. Nobody is saying there is anything wrong with good works.
We were created to do good works Ephesians 2:10
The problem I have is people depend on good works for salvation.
Some people will say a believer knows he's saved because he does good works. This is one form of depending on good works. But I say just because someone does good works does not mean they are saved.
Because Jesus said, Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those that do the will of the Father.
Others will say if I don't do good works God will take away the gift of salvation that God gave freely to all who believe. This is being dependent on works for salvation..
Others say that we can become good enough to earn ultimate salvation. This is the worst kind of dependence on good works.

Galatians 6:9-10
Paul agrees with Jesus.

So do I.
Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
If somebody sows to the Spirit, God has obligated Himself give everlasting life.
And the context of the verse is blessings and curses in this life.
If a husband/wife starts cheating, why would they be surprised when the partner asks for a divorce?
If a person starts blessing others, he will be blessed.
If a person starts cursing others, why would he be surprised when bad things happen to him?

 

[zoidar]

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never die, and Paul said the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

The promise of eternal life is irrevocable (God doesn't regret it). What He gives He gives. If we turn away from him it's not He who has taken back his promise, it's us turning away from it.

 

[EmSw]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Quicken means to be made alive
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, butalive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Can a dead person be alive unto God? That would be NO.
Do you see that word "manifest"? Do you know what it means?

Do you see why you were dead in trespasses and sins? Because, in times past, you walked according to the world, in the lusts of your flesh, fulfilling its desires. You are made alive when you avoid, quit, and have no desire, for them any longer.

Matthew 7
13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Christ quickens us when we listen to Him; He tells us how to have life. It is a narrow gate and a difficult way which leads to life. There is no easy 'grace'. Jesus said the way to life is difficult.

Many don't understand that repenting and sinning no more is not an easy road. It's a battle in which we are to overcome, to be victors. We must lose our life, that is, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and start eating of the tree of Life.

To enter the narrow gate is to enter life itself, for life resides at the end of the way, once we are inside the narrow gate. Many are outside the gate on the way to destruction. To enter is to do something; it is not just believing. It is actually taking steps toward eternal life.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

There is no one Good but God. Therefore, we can't sit back in our old sinful ways, and expect to have life. We must do something to overcome our lack of good. Jesus said if we want to enter life, then we must do something, that is, keep the commandments.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

What makes losing our life difficult is the fact everyone is entrenched in his own desires and pleasures. It is not easy to give up what brings us happiness and delight. We must fight against it. However, there is no battle when we do not want to lose our life, and find a new one in Jesus.

Jesus said if there is something which is hindering our losing our life, cut it off. If a sin is keeping us in bondage, we must resist and root out sin in our hearts.

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

If something is causing us to sin, we are to get rid of it. If not, we will keep that culprit which is causing us to sin, we will be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 23
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

We are to clean the inside, that is, our hearts. For every sin and evil proceed from our hearts. We can look good on the outside, but God looks upon the heart, to see if it has been cleansed. And it's the word of God which cleanses us.

Once we are on the path to life, we must stay on the path, and not put our hands to the plow and look back. For the person looking back is not fit for the Kingdom of God. Eternal life is an inheritance

Luke 9:62
But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

If one is saved by grace, then he must also live by grace. And what does grace teach us?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Why some do not know, nor obey what grace teaches, I can only surmise. It could be they are only looking for an easy way to salvation, or they couldn't care less what grace teaches, or just maybe, they haven't entered the narrow gate.

But, if grace is your teacher, and you are faithful to its teachings, then you will deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, live soberly, righteously, and godly now. As I stated before, this is not an easy task. The way to life is difficult.

 

[Doug Melven]

Do you see why you were dead in trespasses and sins? Because, in times past, you walked according to the world, in the lusts of your flesh, fulfilling its desires. You are made alive when you avoid, quit, and have no desire, for them any longer.

Walking according to the course of this world is what killed me.
Sin is the killer.
That is why we were dead in trespasses and sin.
But God who is rich in mercy for His great love with which He loved, made us alive.
My actions could never make me alive, if they could then there was no need for jesus Christ to die on the cross.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I quoted holy scripture and you said,

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

How about this? Those who profess to be believers in Christ, but in their words they DENY what He says, being abominable and DISOBEDIENT.

So, now you just make up what ever you want to fit your doctrine? Just change words to suit you?

this is not right read the verse in 2 Peter about such things.

 

[EmSw]

Walking according to the course of this world is what killed me.
Sin is the killer.
That is why we were dead in trespasses and sin.
But God who is rich in mercy for His great love with which He loved, made us alive.
My actions could never make me alive, if they could then there was no need for jesus Christ to die on the cross.

What you actually mean is there is no need for the words of Jesus.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #1784:

[Jn. 3:] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The translation "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1784:

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1784:

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Resurrection in itself does not assure a resurrection to eternal life. For people can be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29). This applies even to elect people. For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus Christ will not physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at His future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8). Also, at the subsequent resurrection, at the Great White Throne Judgment, those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be physically resurrected only to be judged and cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1784:

Why on earth would a professing Christian deny what Jesus clearly taught?

NOSAS doesn't deny anything that Jesus taught, but includes everything that He taught, including conditions for us not ultimately perishing (e.g. Luke 13:3).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1785:

What you fail to prove is that we can leave our salvation . . .

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But note that the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1787:

How many opportunities do you think God gives? Or is it unlimited?

It is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1789:

If there were any conditions, Jesus was REMISS to leave any out in John 10:28.

No, for He expects us to know more than one verse (Isaiah 28:9-10, Matthew 4:4). Compare how He added a condition to the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1789:

I see nothing here about losing salvation.

Matthew 24:51 is the same as Luke 13:28.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1789:

[Re: Heb. 5:9] The Greek word for "obey" includes believing.

The obedience required for the ultimate salvation of Christians (Hebrews 5:9) includes both their good works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21), and their repenting from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Verses such as Romans 6:12,16 and Ephesians 6:5-8 show that the concept of obedience (Greek: hupakouo: G5219) in Hebrews 5:9 is tied to actions.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1789:

[Re: Jn. 6:40] How 'bout that! Nothing about obedience.

The obedience is referred to elsewhere (e.g. Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1789:

That's why Jesus called them workers of iniquity.

Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1797:

What Paul said: the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This means that God does not repent from His election of people to initial salvation, that is, their election (their choosing) by God to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Romans 11:26-28, Acts 13:48b). But Christians still have to diligently do the right things in order to make their calling and election sure, to their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1797:

Peter said believers are born again with imerishable seed. 1 Pet 1:23

But they themselves are not imperishable (Luke 13:3). They must actually do the will of God in order to abide forever (1 John 2:17).

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #1798:

The way you use obedience implies works/deeds, not belief.

Both (Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

Doug Melven said in post #1798:

If you had read Isaiah 54 you would see that there can be no conditions.

There can (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1798:

Basically you are saying it is possible for God to make a promise and default on that promise.

His promises are conditional (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Doug Melven said in post #1798:

So we can murder and commit adultery as long as we repent afterwards?

There is no assurance that we will repent (Hebrews 12:17, Revelation 2:21-23).

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Doug Melven said in post #1802:

The problem I have is people depend on good works for salvation.

For ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

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Doug Melven said in post #1805:

My actions could never make me alive, if they could then there was no need for jesus Christ to die on the cross.

That's right.

For all non-Christians, whether elect or nonelect, are like people who do not even know that they are blind in both eyes. They can neither see any need to believe in Jesus Christ, nor see any need to repent from their sins. But when God miraculously grants elect people His gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2), and His miraculous gift of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), it is like these people can suddenly see with both eyes.

Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ initially do not involve the will or any works, just as if a blind man who did not even know that he was blind were miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes would miraculously see without his will or his works having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also does not take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his free will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are miraculously received by an elect person, he still has the same free will which he had before he got saved. And so he can ultimately lose his salvation if he, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, wrongly employs his free will to return to doing something like committing a sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[FreeGrace2]

The promise of eternal life is irrevocable (God doesn't regret it). What He gives He gives.

Correct, so far.

If we turn away from him it's not He who has taken back his promise, it's us turning away from it.

Nope. There are no verses about giving back, returning, losing, or anything else that results in no longer having eternal life. That is a very foreign concept in Scripture.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That refutes your ideas.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I quoted holy scripture and you said,

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."


So, now you just make up what ever you want to fit your doctrine?

I find your claim to be empty of substance? What did I "make up" in what I said?

Just change words to suit you?

OK, show me how the message was changed. I believe Titus 1:16 applies to everyone who refuses to believe what Jesus said.

this is not right read the verse in 2 Peter about such things.

Please just explain how I changed the meaning of Titus 1:16 which it seems is your claim.

And please remember to include substance when you throw claims around.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The translation "whoever believes in Him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish".

Do you understand the subjunctive mood yourself? It seems your claim here is that even if one does believe in Jesus Christ, they MAY NOT perish. That would be quite foolish, if that's your idea of the subjunctive mood.

What that mood conveys is this: IF the condition IS met, then the result is GUARANTEED.

Just the opposite of what it seems you've proposed here.

What is "subjunctive" here is whether or not one will believe in Christ. But, IF they do, they shall never perish. Period.

You've confused the action with the result. Please don't make that mistake again.

It's the action that is subjunctive. Not the result.

Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

None of this is true. Because Jesus, IN ONE BREATH, said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That refutes your erroneous beliefs.

The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified verse says to Christians

Are you really claiming that what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 is "an unqualified verse"??? Really??

but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

Each and every verse is in harmony with every other verse in the Bible. So, because of John 10:28, plus many others, the claim that other verses teach loss of salvation is FALSE on its face.

A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

No, John 10:28 REFUTES the claim of OSNAS completely.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25).

This is very mistaken. In this one verse, Jesus states 3 tenses of results from believing now.

1. "has eternal life". Present tense as a result of believing now.
2. "shall not come into condemnation". Future tense as a result of believing now.
3. "has passed from spiritual death to spiritual life". Past tense as a result of believing now.

John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe

I just explained the 3 tenses involved. So your claim is false.

Your claim is basically that any result of a present tense action only occurs as long as the "present tense" action continues.

Well, I CHALLENGE you to quote from any Greek text book on grammar and prove your erroneous claim. Because it is erroneous and no Greek grammar text supports your claim.

Resurrection in itself does not assure a resurrection to eternal life.

Only those given eternal life during their lifetime are assured a resurrection to eternal life.

John 5:24, 10:28, Rev 20:15.

For people can be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29).

This applies only to people who never received eternal life. John 10:28

This applies even to elect people.

Nonsense. Jesus said otherwise. I believe Jesus. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus Christ will not physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at His future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8). Also, at the subsequent resurrection, at the Great White Throne Judgment, those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be physically resurrected only to be judged and cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15).

Your claims are just stunning. And in error.

NOSAS doesn't deny anything that Jesus taught, but includes everything that He taught, including conditions for us not ultimately perishing (e.g. Luke 13:3).

Do you not understand that when Jesus said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" was in ONE BREATH?? All one sentence. If there were conditions for recipients to meet, He would have been NEGLIGENT to leave any out in that singular sentence.

So, I conclude that you are charging the Lord Jesus Christ with NEGLIGENCE.

Unbelievable.

I believe this would qualify as either grieving the Spirit (Eph 5:18) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Either one, that puts you in quite a lot of hot water.

No, for He expects us to know more than one verse (Isaiah 28:9-10, Matthew 4:4).

Yeah, right. If Jesus said something only once, we can just ignore it as if He never really said it.

Pure nonsense. Everything Jesus said is TRUTH. Including the FACT that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This means that God does not repent from His election of people to initial salvation, that is, their election (their choosing) by God to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Romans 11:26-28, Acts 13:48b). But Christians still have to diligently do the right things in order to make their calling and election sure, to their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

I will remind you once again that there is NO SUCH THING as an "initial" vs an "ultimate" salvation. That is a fabricated notion that has no support from Scripture.

But they themselves are not imperishable (Luke 13:3).

I don't know how Luke 13:3 relates to 1 Pet 1:23, but the FACT is that those born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED makes them IMPERISHABLE.

To even assume otherwise is foolish.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I find your claim to be empty of substance? What did I "make up" in what I said?

OK, show me how the message was changed. .

I didn't say you changed meanings etc. I said you changed words

Here is the scripture according to you, You own version, You said

"How about this? Those who profess to be believers in Christ, but in their words they DENY what He says, being abominable and DISOBEDIENT."

But the actual scripture verse says

"Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.""

Is it any clearer that you just added word to the text. Even from your own words. You must be able to admit even one error. If you could that would be a start.

Many try to do this with the OSAS heresy. Thy will say Judas was "ALWAYS" a thief. But scripture does not say that and they say similar things in other places adding their own words.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What that mood conveys is this: IF the condition IS met, then the result is GUARANTEED.

The conditions are belief and continual faith, abiding in him, following him, steadfast unto the end, continuing in his word in the new man through faith and yielding to the Spirit allowing God to work in believers. And holding the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. To overcome to the end through the grace of God through faith.

then we continue in the Son and in the father. Then we continue in eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say you changed meanings etc. I said you changed words

Here is the scripture according to you, You own version, You said

"How about this? Those who profess to be believers in Christ, but in their words they DENY what He says, being abominable and DISOBEDIENT."

But the actual scripture verse says

"Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.""

Is it any clearer that you just added word to the text. Even from your own words. You must be able to admit even one error. If you could that would be a start.

So, somehow, words that deny what Jesus said is not even close to works that deny Him?

Is that really your issue here? In fact, the message is the SAME whether one denies Jesus by their works or whether they just flat out deny what He says by what they claim.

Many try to do this with the OSAS heresy. Thy will say Judas was "ALWAYS" a thief. But scripture does not say that and they say similar things in other places adding their own words.

If OSAS is heresy, then Jesus was a heretic, because He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Which you do not believe.

So, please explain what He said about recipients of eternal life then.

Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"What that mood conveys is this: IF the condition IS met, then the result is GUARANTEED."

The conditions are belief and continual faith, abiding in him, following him, steadfast unto the end, continuing in his word in the new man through faith and yielding to the Spirit allowing God to work in believers.

If true, then Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28, which is a single statement in ONE BREATH. Either Jesus was wrong, or you are. I am sticking with Jesus and what He said.

then we continue in the Son and in the father. Then we continue in eternal life.

Nope. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jesus said that.

You're adding conditions in a single sentence where Jesus didn't.

You are out of line with what Jesus said.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That refutes your ideas.

Jesus is talking about receiving eternal life. Eternal means changeless. Life that doesn't change into death. If your life is changing into death, you haven't received eternal life yet.

 

[Doug Melven]

What you actually mean is there is no need for the words of Jesus.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Do you not understand what Jesus was doing here?
Jesus was using the law for it's intended purpose, to show this man that he was a sinner.
Because jesus listed some of those commandments. And the man replied that he had kept them all. Which was a lie.
So Jesus gave him the last commandment paraphrased. And the young man went away sorrowful because he had great possessions and was unwilling to let them go.
Remember, no one is justified by keeping the law. Because we are born with a sin nature. In order to be justified by the law, you would have to keep the whole law. Because if you break it in one point, you are guilty of all.

There is no assurance that we will repent (Hebrews 12:17, Revelation 2:21-23).

That is not a response.
Because I said if you sin, and then you repent, that means you can sin as long as you repent.
How silly is that?

For ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

We are saved as soon as we are born-again. Our free will cannot affect our born-again state.
Just as if a person commits a crime and goes to prison, he is now a prisoner, he still has freewill but that freewill will not allow him to go beyond the fences.
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Philemon 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.

"How about this? Those who profess to be believers in Christ, but in their words they DENY what He says, being abominable and DISOBEDIENT."

But the actual scripture verse says

"Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.""

Is it any clearer that you just added word to the text. Even from your own words. You must be able to admit even one error. If you could that would be a start.

Changing the "works" to "words" does not affect the meaning in any tangible way.
Some say they know God, but it is manifest that they are not that they do not know God because there works deny Him.
James is saying the same thing.
2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If you go around telling people you are saved, but your works say otherwise, I seriously doubt you had a true conversion.
Jesus said that those who know they are forgiven much, love much. Luke 7:40-50

 

[Eloy Craft]

Because jesus listed some of those commandments. And the man replied that he had kept them all. Which was a lie.

Where in scripture does it reveal the young man lied? I would suggest that to look Jesus in the face and be able to say " I have kept the commandments" is not easy to do when telling the truth and impossible if it's a lie. One of you will betray me He said to the twelve. surely not I, they said. They knew Jesus knew them better than they knew themselves. Jesus knew what was in a man's heart.

Matt. 19

The young man said to him, “I have kept all these; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Jesus doesn't tell him he lied. He tells him how to become perfect right here on earth. How to put treasure in heaven. No doubt he was in a state to go for Jesus to show him how to have treasure there too.

 

[Doug Melven]

Where in scripture does it reveal the young man lied? I would suggest that to look Jesus in the face and be able to say " i have done that" is not easy to do when telling the truth and impossible if it's a lie. One of you will betray me He said to the twelve. surely not I, they said. They knew Jesus knew them better than they knew themselves. Jesus knew what was in a man's heart.

There is none righteous, no not one.
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Are you going to tell me these Scriptures are not true?
This young man did not know anything about Jesus and Jesus knew it.
That is why Jesus said, "Why do you call me good".
Or do you not think Jesus was good?
This young was in self deception, he did not keep all of the commandments. He may have thought he did, but he did not.
For him to say he did keep the commandments was a lie.

Jesus doesn't tell him he lied. He tells him how to become perfect right here on earth. How to put treasure in heaven. No doubt he was in a state to go for Jesus to show him how to have treasure there too.

This statement doesn't match up with the Scripture, for he liked his possessions better than eternal life.