Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[FreeGrace2]

Nope! You have failed to give us ONE OT passage...ZERO!!!

Blatant lie.

I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what the OT is.

Sure. Genesis to Malachi.

I've told you before, I DON'T WANT ANY REFERENCES to the OT.

Of course you don't. They REFUTE your false claims.

I want actual OT passages. You know what? I will give you one which shows how they receive life.

Deuteronomy 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

See how easy that was FG2? I had no problem at all finding these passages. I have no idea what your problem is.

Those familiar with and understand the OT know that this passage is speaking of physical life and physical death.

But, if they turned their hearts away, and not hear, they will be drawn away and worship and serve other gods, God says He denounces them and they SHALL PERISH. You heard the word PERISH before, haven't you, FG2?

Of course, you've never heard of capital punishment in the OT.

I told you this would bury your theology, and God even gives you the shovel. Start digging, FG2.

What has already been buried is your unchristian theology.

Tomorrow, I will give another OT passage on how they received life. Wow, this is so easy!

So, it seems you're going to avoid answering my questions, huh.

Well, that makes sense, since it would reveal your UNbiblical and UNChristian beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There have been many people shot in the heart and lived to tell about it.

Seems you just love to make up stuff.

And yes, the result of that action does go away. You have to get better scenarios; you've failed in the ones you have presented so far.

Wrong again.

Here, I'll give you one. You put a down payment on a house and make the first month's mortgage payment. This is the action. What is the result? You get to live in your house. Now suppose you quit making your mortgage payments (quit the action). Do you think you can continually live in the house (the result of the action) on just that first month's payment?

OK, now try to equate this sloopy analogy with the present tense action of believing in Christ for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Very good analogy.

I seriously doubt that he will explain how his analogy fits with believing for salvation.

Maybe you could try?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Two comments...

The Holy Spirit is a seal, or earnest or down payment for eternal life.

Uh, no. That Bible does NOT say that anywhere.

This is what the Bible does say about this:
Eph 1:13,14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It's not for eternal life. It's a guarantee of our inheritance. Eternal security.

We receive eternal life when we die and not before.

So this means MORE statements of Jesus that you do not believe. Wow.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Why on earth would a professing Christian deny what Jesus clearly taught?

And, from someone who makes such a point about the present tense.

And these verses are clearly in the present tense. If your claim was true, Jesus would have had to use the future tense. Which He never did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

no, the salvation is in Him not in our belief in him.

To be clear, we must believe in Him. Now, explain what saving faith looks like. What's involved for it to be saving faith.

By us believing and continuing in that faith he abides in us also and we continue in the Son and in the father.

When are you going to provide any verse that says what you keep claiming?

We are not in Charge of Jesus (who is eternal life). But we have a choice to come unto him and believe and abide, or to withdraw from him and deny him and abide not, we are not robots

What you fail to prove is that we can leave our salvation, which means we would be giving up or giving away our gift of eternal life.

Except, you have no verses to that effect. It's all just made up stuff.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Give me just one verses that flat out states in plain language (no metaphors or figures of speech) that we can lose salvation or that a believer can perish."

I gave many but you don't see them

I don't see what's not there. You have NOT provide any verses that plainly state that salvation can be lost, that a believer can perish, etc.

here is a section that uses the word "perished" in context of believing and falling away. I added a few more verses to show the context

"4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day....11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."(Jude 1:4-6,11 KJV)

See? Just another example of a failed attempt at a verse that states plainly that salvation can be lost.

Just because you found a passage with "perish" and "believed" in it. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the history of the Exodus generation. But Paul provides us an explanation in 1 Cor 10. In your so-called proof-text passage here, "perish" occurs in a different context than the Exodus generation. So v.4-6 isn't connected to v.11 at all.

But slick attempt at deception. The context of v.11 begins in v.8, and refers back to v.4.

And v.5,6 are examples of God's divine discipline, whereby the Exodus generation were punished for their lack of faith in God's provisions by being denied entrance into the promised land. That's why the 40 year death march. They were all killed off, except Joshua and Calef, the only 2 from the first generation to enter the land. But all the children did enter.

also

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,..."

Showing that a person has to continue in the faith grounded and settled or else they have no root and can Fall away ( Luke 8)

Why does your conclusion include Luke 8 when that parable isn't connected to what Paul wrote in Col in any way? All you're doing is cutting and pasting in a desperate way to try to support your claims.

How come you left v.22 out, which EXPLAINS what the "if" refers to in v.23? That is key, and you left it out. You can't make any conclusions without v.22.

22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So, I'll mansplain it to you.

The condition in blue in v.23 is contingent upon the red words in v.22, obviously.

iow, the ONLY WAY for God to "present you (believers) holy, w/o blemish" is IF IF IF you (believers) continue in your faith.

How can God present any believer holy and blameless UNLESS they continue in the faith?

1 Thessalonians 3:8
For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.''
If you don't stand fast do you live?

Is this the best you've got?

You got nothing.

How do you even know if Paul was referring to physical life as opposed to dying from failure to stand fast?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think I did answer your question. My answer was: No, it's not like a yo-yo!

You get it right with God again by repentance and grace.

So, it still seems like a yo-yo. Sin and you're out. Repent and you're back in.

How many opportunities do you think God gives? Or is it unlimited?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I seriously doubt that he will explain how his analogy fits with believing for salvation.

Maybe you could try?

He doesn't have to explain it.
I understand it.
Just some don't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said in post #1711:

The issue of this verse [John 10:28] is that all who receive the gift of eternal life shall never perish.

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

If there were any conditions, Jesus was REMISS to leave any out in John 10:28.

How come you don't understand this? What He said included NO CONDITIONS.

What you're doing is FORCING conditions into a statement by Jesus. You do not have the right, authority or power to CHANGE what Jesus said.

What I believe is what Jesus said. What i REJECT is what anyone FORCES into a verse that isn't there.

It can be lost (Matthew 24:48-51).

48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’
49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I see nothing here about losing salvation. I do see punishment for wicked servants. Very severe punishment.

Where else does the Bible describe going to hell as including being "cut to pieces"?

Your attempt fails. Miserably.

But ultimate salvation requires belief unto the end (Hebrews 3:14, Hebrews 6:4-8).

None of the verses you abuse support your claims.

Obedience to God is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21).

Heb 5:9 - and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

The Greek word for "obey" includes believing.

Matt 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I have to include the REST of the CONTEXT, to show your error.

From v.21, the question is: what IS the will of the Father regarding entrance in heaven?

OK, Jesus answered that question in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

How 'bout that! Nothing about obedience. Looking and believing were mentioned.

Also, note what was the basis for this crowd's appeal on entering heaven: their works.

They were works based. They thought they could earn their way in by what they did.

Even obedience.

But their appeal failed. They did NOT comply with the Father's will, which was to "look and believe" in His Son, and receive eternal life.

That's why Jesus called them workers of iniquity.

Those who believe that their deeds will either get them in heaven, or help them get in heaven, or help keep them saved, are workers of iniquity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I seriously doubt that he will explain how his analogy fits with believing for salvation.

Maybe you could try?"

He doesn't have to explain it.

Yes, he does. But he can't, because it's a lousy analogy.

I understand it.

Good for you.

Just some don't.

I asked if you could try? Are you going to, or just obstruct?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Uh, no. That Bible does NOT say that anywhere.

This is what the Bible does say about this:
Eph 1:13,14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It's not for eternal life. It's a guarantee of our inheritance. Eternal security.
IF you're God's possession.



So this means MORE statements of Jesus that you do not believe. Wow.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Why on earth would a professing Christian deny what Jesus clearly taught?

And, from someone who makes such a point about the present tense.

And these verses are clearly in the present tense. If your claim was true, Jesus would have had to use the future tense. Which He never did.

You're verses are correct, of course.
They just need to be understood.

Click to open.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're verses are correct, of course.
They just need to be understood.

Of course. Every verse needs to be. And I find an appalling failure among the Arminians regarding eternal security.

It's all over the Bible and very clearly stated in John 10:28, so what do Arminians do? They FORCE conditions into a verse that has none.

That's the worst kind of eisegesis out there.

Click to open.

The original post doesn't have these words. Wonder where they came from?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I said:
"I seriously doubt that he will explain how his analogy fits with believing for salvation.

Maybe you could try?"

Yes, he does. But he can't, because it's a lousy analogy.


Good for you.


I asked if you could try? Are you going to, or just obstruct?

I said... There's nothing to explain/it's self-explanatory.
It was a great analogy.

 

[LoveofTruth]

See? Just another example of a failed attempt at a verse that states plainly that salvation can be lost.

No, I quoted

"turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ"

Remember, this is written to believers as a warning. It is possible to TURN the grace of God into lasciviousness. How can this be done? Well, if a person says they can sin and willfully sin and still be in grace and saved, this may be one way. It seems that the OSAS do this and this very verses would be a warning to such an idea. hey can also deny the Lord. They can do this by turning the grace of God that bringeth salvation into lasciviousness. We see some were warned of sinning wilfully and doing despite the Spirit of grace.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

And others went against the grace of Christ unto another gospel,adding works of the law and the flesh to the gospel and they were removed from the grace,

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"(Galatians 1:6 KJV)

and they were told that a believer can fall from grace, (and by grace we are saved so they fall from salvation)

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

The grace of God teaches us,

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

So when a person does not walk in the grace of God they do not do these things and can try to justify themselves in their sin and make excuses and so continue in darkness and say they are in the light and by doing so they can turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and deny the Lord. They profess that they know Him but in works they deny him,

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

I also quoted from that section,

"how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Here we see this is written to believers as a warning of the danger of unbelief. He even says God saved people and later destroyed them. Yes the OT saints are a type of God's work among believers and our deliverance from Satan and the dark land (Egypt or the world). But still he uses these words saved , then destroyed those who believed not. This is a warning to believers also.

If a believer is saved by grace through faith and then believes not are they still saved? No. They can believe only for a while (Luke 8) and then fall away from that belief (which shows they were saved Luke 8).

We also see a similar example of this story and the warnings for believers in Hebrews 3 and 4

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
...
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."(Hebrews 3:12-14,7,18)

and this is with,

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,"(Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV)

And then in the quote I gave we read of the angels, who are eternal beings and they were perfect and pure and with God and in the truth and yet they sinned and fell and are headed for the lake of fire. This again is a warning for believers, as it is written to believers,

"6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

We can see that the lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, but also for those who have unbelief, idolatry, fornication, etc etc. Notice also that the angels LEFT their habitation or dwelling with God. This shows that believers can also leave their habitation or dwelling with God if they dwell not (or abide and remain) with him. This warning to believers about the angels that sinned is also spoken of in other places to believers,

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

The implication is that f God spared not even the angels that sinned take heed lest he spare not you either.

Then I quoted this part,

...11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."(Jude 1:4-6,11 KJV)

These three men are warnings of any who might follow after such men and their sins.

So you can see how the entire section I quoted was in a right context to our discussion and how it can be used rightly.

Why does your conclusion include Luke 8 when that parable isn't connected to what Paul wrote in Col in any way? All you're doing is cutting and pasting in a desperate way to try to support your claims.

Paul said

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,..."

I was showing that a person has to continue in the faith grounded and settled or else they have no root and can Fall away ( Luke 8). I used Luke 8 because in Luke 8 we read of some who did not continue in the faith and only for believed (and were saved) for a while, I was referring to them not having a root or grounded as Paul put it.

"...lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."(Luke 8:12,13 KJV)

Paul also refers to this root or grounding and settling here,

Ephesians 3:17
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"

Colossians 2:7
"Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving."

So some will not be rooted and grounded and can easily be tossed about by every wind of doctrine and can give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils as Paul warned and depart from the faith.
So again, I used this verse rightly and its connection to Luke 8.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you even know if Paul was referring to physical life as opposed to dying from failure to stand fast?

because he uses the expression "in the Lord"

1 Thessalonians 3:8
For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.''

the life he speaks of is "in the Lord". He is talking about their faith in the Lord. This is to be saved, he is not referring to physical life. So we only live in Christ IF we stand fast. We see many examples of this "if" expression connected to our salvation and continuing in Christ.

also in the same chapter and context Paul said to them

"5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain."(1 Thessalonians 3:5 KJV)

This shows that such a thing is possible.

and Paul said

"10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?"

If a person has some things lacking in their faith they can be more easily tempted and not as firmly rooted in Christ, Or they can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men etc (Ephesians 4). They needed to be established and have hearts unblameable in holiness before God. This is the walk for all believers to seek.

"13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."(1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV)

How do we have a heart unblameable? This is only as we abide in Christ ( 1John 3:6) and as we walk in the light we have in a clean conscience. Then we shall assure our hearts before him. This is all done as God works in us through our continual faith.

This shows that such a thing is possible.

iow, the ONLY WAY for God to "present you (believers) holy, w/o blemish" is IF IF IF you (believers) continue in your faith.
How can God present any believer holy and blameless UNLESS they continue in the faith?

This is my point only as we continue in the faith does Christ abide with us and he makes us holy and works in us . Without such holiness no man shall see the Lord. So if we are told to continue in the faith, then holiness will be seen in our lives . If it is not are we abiding in Christ? No.

Is this the best you've got?

I have given you many scriptures all over the bible for what I teach. I only need to stick with the story of Judas and the angels who fell, that should be enough to prove that a sheep can fall away and be lost and that an eternal being as the angels are can not abide in the truth and go to the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I quoted

"turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ"

Remember, this is written to believers as a warning.

Correct.

So where's the verse about losing salvation? It itsn't there.

It is possible to TURN the grace of God into lasciviousness. How can this be done? Well, if a person says they can sin and willfully sin and still be in grace and saved, this may be one way.

The passage itself indicates how God's grace is turned into lasciviousness.

It seems that the

OSAS do this and this very verses would be a warning to such an idea. hey can also deny the Lord.

Of course the Bible would warn against this.

They can do this by turning the grace of God that bringeth salvation into lasciviousness. We see some were warned of sinning wilfully and doing despite the Spirit of grace.

But none of this is loss of salvation.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Still nothing here about losing or having lost salvation. Where is your support?

And others went against the grace of Christ unto another gospel,adding works of the law and the flesh to the gospel and they were removed from the grace,

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"(Galatians 1:6 KJV)

and they were told that a believer can fall from grace, (and by grace we are saved so they fall from salvation)

It is nothing more than a huge leap to equate falling from grace with losing salvation.

Why can't you realize that if that were true, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true? And what Jesus SAID in that verse is FAR MORE CLEAR than anything you can share.

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

The grace of God teaches us,

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

So when a person does not walk in the grace of God they do not do these things and can try to justify themselves in their sin and make excuses and so continue in darkness and say they are in the light and by doing so they can turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and deny the Lord. They profess that they know Him but in works they deny him

Still nothing about losing salvation here. Just a lot of very bad behavior by God's children. You're not making your point.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

How about this? Those who profess to be believers in Christ, but in their words they DENY what He says, being abominable and DISOBEDIENT.

That's directed to those who deny what Jesus very plainly in John 10:28.

I stay with that verse because it is the single most clear verse on the subject of eternal security.

I also quoted from that section,

"how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Here we see this is written to believers as a warning of the danger of unbelief. He even says God saved people and later destroyed them.

The context is very clear; what got destroyed was their physical lives. You need to read with a lot more care.

If a believer is saved by grace through faith and then believes not are they still saved? No.[/QOUTE]

Why do you continue to DISbelieve what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life??

They can believe only for a while (Luke 8) and then fall away from that belief (which shows they were saved Luke 8).

What makes you think Jesus was contradicting Himself between Luke 8:13 and John 10:28?

Luke 8:13 is a parable. John 10:28 is plain language.

Paul said

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,..."

I was showing that a person has to continue in the faith grounded and settled or else they have no root and can Fall away ( Luke 8).

Apparently you either misread my response and refutation of your comments on this verse, or you just failed to read it at all.

I'm getting tired of having to keep repeating myself. Col 1:23 needs the previous verse to make any sense and have context. And the context isn't Luke 8, as you presume.

But, since you bring up what "Paul said...", let's see what else he said about the subject.

Paul listed 3 of the gifts of God in Romans:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:14 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

Then he wrote this, in 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

So there you go. You don't even believe what Paul wrote.

So don't tell me what "Paul said". You reject what he said, just as you reject what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
How do you even know if Paul was referring to physical life as opposed to dying from failure to stand fast?

because he uses the expression "in the Lord"

1 Thessalonians 3:8
For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.''

the life he speaks of is "in the Lord".

To carry your presumption to its conclusion then, if a believer does NOT "stand fast in the Lord, they shall not live. Is that your position?

also in the same chapter and context Paul said to them

Right. What Paul said: the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

How come you don't believe those words of Paul?

and Paul said

Sure. The one who doesn't believe what Paul said.

I have given you many scriptures all over the bible for what I teach.

I feel sorry for your students. They are being deceived and let astray.

I only need to stick with the story of Judas and the angels who fell, that should be enough to prove that a sheep can fall away and be lost and that an eternal being as the angels are can not abide in the truth and go to the lake of fire.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
Paul said the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Rom 6:23, 11:29
Peter said believers are born again with imerishable seed. 1 Pet 1:23

All this proves eternal security.

 

[Doug Melven]

Well, you haven't passed from death to life for starters; you still abide in death.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Quicken means to be made alive
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, butalive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Can a dead person be alive unto God? That would be NO.

Now John says this is how a child of the devil is manifested - he does not practice righteousness, AND he does not LOVE his brother. Do you now see what happens?

Do you see that word "manifest"? Do you know what it means?

Actually the word in John 3:36 that is translated "not obey" is not pisteuō, but apeithéō which means:

"believe not, do not obey, obey not, unbelieving, disbelieved, obey, disobedient" (Search for 'obey' - Bible Lexicon: FREE Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicons)

As long as we have, abide in, believe, follow, THE SON, we have eternal life.

However, the eternal life goes into effect at our death. If we had it now, we'd never die.

Right now we have an ABUNDANT LIFE. Which is what YOU always talk about.
John 10:10

That doesn't change anything. The way you use obedience implies works/deeds, not belief.

Just adding to what you said. To love your enemies doesn't mean you have to have warm feelings, it's about treating them with love.

What do you think it means to love someone?
Does it not mean to have there best interests at heart?

Only so long as we don't commit unrepentant sin (Revelation 3:19).

If you had read Isaiah 54 you would see that there can be no conditions.
Because God said when they couldn't meet His expectations/conditions He bacame angry with them for a moment.
But He says now the hills can be moved out of there place before He will take the Covenant of peace away.
And how could He say this? Read Isaiah 53 for the answer.

It is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

I pray for the sake of those people dealing with such issues that you avoid those threads so as not to add to there fear, because you have nothing positive to offer.

Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

You do realize that the only reason a down payment on a house is not absolutely certain is that the possible owner may default on future payments.
Basically you are saying it is possible for God to make a promise and default on that promise.

By repenting (Psalms 51; 1 John 1:9). But he still lost a child due to his sin (2 Samuel 12:14). Compare Revelation 2:23.

So we can murder and commit adultery as long as we repent afterwards?

 

[zoidar]

What do you think it means to love someone?
Does it not mean to have there best interests at heart?

Exactly!

 

[GodsGrace101]

That doesn't change anything. The way you use obedience implies works/deeds, not belief.

This is what I said to which you're replying the above...


As long as we have, abide in, believe, follow, THE SON, we have eternal life.
↑
However, the eternal life goes into effect at our death. If we had it now, we'd never die.
↑
Right now we have an ABUNDANT LIFE. Which is what YOU always talk about.
John 10:10

So, my question is, and I do ask it A LOT and never get a good reply...
What's wrong with good works/deeds?
Are they a bad thing?

Acts 10:37-38
Are we imitators of Christ?

Galatians 6:9-10
Paul agrees with Jesus.