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Featured Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by EternallyKeptByJesus, Apr 26, 2018.

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  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said:
    "Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That refutes your ideas."
    Correct. My comment was directed at thosewho believe salvation can be lost.
     
  2. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Yes, I understand what Jesus was doing. He was answering the man's question. Pretty simple, actually.

    Jesus did not use the law to show the man he was a sinner. Why must you insert your own ideas into what Jesus said? Look, I will show you the question the man asked, and the answer Jesus gave.

    Matthew 19
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (the question he asked)
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (the answer Jesus gave)
    18 He saith unto him, Which? (the second question asked). Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (the answer to the second question).
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (the third question asked by the man).
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me (the third question answered by Jesus).
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


    All the questions were asked, and were answered. Do you disagree with this? Now that Jesus settled the first question, the man asks another question, which was 'which commandments?' He wanted to know which commandments should he keep to have eternal life. Simple, very simple.

    Jesus then listed the commandments. He didn't list all 600 plus commandments, laws, and statutes. The man then stated he kept those from his youth up, and Jesus did not correct him, nor tell him he is lying, but most want to insert that Jesus disagreed with him, as you have done. Why? Because it fits your own beliefs.

    Then he asks another question. So far, the first two questions were answered by Jesus. Now Jesus proceeds to answer the third question the man asked. The man wanted to know what he still lacked.

    So far, we know how to have eternal life, and which commandments to keep for eternal life. Now Jesus answers the third question with, 'if you wilt be perfect'. This is the context for the third question. If the man was to be perfect, he was to go sell what he had and give to the poor. Then his treasure would be in Heaven. Then Jesus then added another thing to what the man lacked. He said, 'come follow Me'.

    The man didn't go away sorrowful because Jesus told him to keep the commandments, nor which ones to keep. He went away sorrowful hearing to sell what he had and give to the poor.

    So Doug, if I asked you what I must to have eternal life, would your answer be what Jesus said? Or would do reject what Jesus said and tell me something else? Do you have a better way than what Jesus said?

    Why must you insert, 'which was a lie?' That is not what it says. Selling what he had and give to the poor is not a commandment, nor is it a paraphrase. Perhaps you can find this so-called commandment of your imagination in the Old Testament and show us. It is your insertion into the text.

    Luke 1
    5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


    Well well, look who we have in Luke 1, Zacharias and Elisabeth. They both were righteous before God, AND they both walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS. Do you see they were RIGHTEOUS before God? Is this what you believe, or do you believe there are none righteous? Do you believe they walked in all the commandments, or do you believe they were guilty?
     
  3. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Luke 1
    5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


    I believe there were some righteous, more than one. What do you say? Do you believe Zacharias and Elisabeth were righteous before God?
     
  4. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Maybe you are projecting your own inability to keep the commandments on others. If you can't, then do not say others can't. One day, you may get to that point of being able to keep His commandments, but until then, don't say others can't because you can't.
     
  5. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    First off, the question he asked Jesus, what good thing? This young man was self-righteous. He thought he kept all of the commandments.
    He was excusing his sin.
    Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    The law points out sin.
    I would say, "Repent and believe the Gospel"

    Deuteronomy 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

    Just like Noah, Daniel and Job.
    They were all given mercy and God did not hold there sins against them.
    Psalms 130:3 If you LORD should mark iniquity who could stand?

    Do you think you could answer questions?
    How was David saved?
    Why did Jesus have to die?
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    It is not a question of what I say or don't say. What does the Scripture say?
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
     
  7. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Don't try to pull the wool over my eyes. It was not that he said 'what good thing', but rather, 'Good Master'.

    Matthew 19
    15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


    If you can't get this right, how am I able to trust you in other passages?

    Jesus preached the Gospel, and yet you do not believe it. Why should I believe it to have eternal life?

    And just where do you see, 'sell ALL that you have'?

    So, even you think there were righteous ones in the OT. I thought you believed there are none righteous, not even one.

    I've already told you David was sorrowful and repented of his sins, but you did not believe me.

    Why Jesus died is for another thread.
     
  8. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Then let me ask, which of the Lord's commandments do you have a problem with? Which one(s) are you unable to keep? Do you hide from others the way you behave in not keeping His commandments?

    We aren't talking about sin, we are talking about keeping His commandments.

    Have you gone to the Lord and asked Him to help you keep His commandments? If so, what did He say to you? Are you not able to do ALL things through Christ which strengthens you?
     
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Don't trust anything anyone says about Scripture. You must verify it for yourself.
    Because if you don't believe the Gospel you will not have eternal life.
    I Corinthians 15:1-4 defines the Gospel.
    God said they were righteous, so He must have had mercy on them.
    Noah needed grace.
    Job confessed he unrighteous before God.
    Daniel admitted he was a sinner..
    So we can commit murder and adultery and as long we are sorrowful and repent we can have eternal life?
    iow you don't know.
    I let God worry about keeping the commandments through me. Galatians 2:20, Romans 8:4
    The 10 commandments are a ministry of death and condemnation. I do not focus on them.
    See Romans 8:4
     
  10. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Precisely.

    Show me the Gospel Jesus preached.

    Having mercy on someone does not make them righteous.

    Anyway, don't you believe there was/is no one righteous? I showed you Zacharias and Elisabeth were righteous before God. Why don't you believe that?

    If not, Paul isn't in Heaven. Remember, if you don't repent, you will perish.

    I said that's for another thread. This thread isn't about why Jesus died.

    You let God worry about keeping the commandments through you? Really? If you believe no one can keep the commandments, it sounds like God isn't doing a very good job through you.

    It takes your part in order to keep the commandments. I'm surprised you don't know that. God gave us the commandments, it's up to us to keep them. Anyone who has no desire to keep them, will not keep them, no matter how much you think God keeps the commandments through them. Unless of course, you believe God forces and coerces people to keep them.

    Jesus said keeping the commandments brought eternal life, not death. And you should focus on the commandments. If you don't, you will give in to lust, theft, lying, murder, and hate.
     
  11. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
    Who said I didn't believe that? I am the one who showed Noah, Daniel and Job were declared righteous by God.
    And Abraham too. He believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
    Nobody is justified by keeping the law.
    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    I am beginning to think you don't believe what Paul wrote.
    If God says someone is righteous, that is mercy.
    After God anointed David, then he committed murder and adultery.
    So, if he had salvation before that, he must have lost it according to your doctrine. And according to Hebrews 6:4-6 it is impossible to get it back.
    So how could David have been saved?

    What makes you think God doesn't keep the commandments through me?
    Who are you to judge me?
    God is the only one who can judge me and you are not Him.

    My part is to follow.

    The Holy Spirit will not lead me to do such things.
    Psalms 139:23-24, Isaiah 30:20-21
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    There are (e.g. 2 Peter 2:20-22).

    With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

    *******

    Rather, refuses to do what He said (Luke 6:46, James 2:24).

    *******

    That's right. For believers will not perish only if they do certain things (2 Peter 1:10-11).

    Yes, in the sense that even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

    An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

    Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is that we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Also, compare how Jesus Christ qualified the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16). When Jesus said: "It is written again" (Matthew 4:7), He was referring to the principle of Isaiah 28:9-10. For in Matthew 4:7, the original Greek word (G3825) translated as "again" can mean "furthermore" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

    There is no assurance.

    For some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

    For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

    No, it doesn't. For even born-again people can ultimately perish if they don't repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), or if they commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30).
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right, insofar as by the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law shall no flesh be justified (Galatians 2:16).

    But Christians will be ultimately justified by their works of faith (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9).

    Also, it is sometimes asked: "So are we now under a stricter law?"

    The answer is Yes. For Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

    Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

    So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

    But there is no assurance of repentance (Hebrews 12:17, Revelation 2:21-23).

    But it can affect our ultimate salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Ephesians 3:1 doesn't mean that Jesus takes away our free will to any extent at all, but means that Paul had been arrested and literally imprisoned by men for preaching Jesus.

    Compare 2 Timothy 1:15, which was written at the time of Paul the literal prisoner's (2 Timothy 1:8) first testimony at his trial (2 Timothy 4:16-17) before Caesar (Acts 25:12) in Rome (2 Timothy 1:16-18). Those who rejected the apostle Paul at that time (in the first century AD) could have done so because they, unlike Onesiphorus, were ashamed of Paul's chain (2 Timothy 1:16), ashamed of Paul as a prisoner (2 Timothy 1:8), because they had the spirit of fear that they would become partakers of the afflictions of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:7-8), that they would suffer imprisonment and martyrdom for Jesus and His Gospel along with Paul if they publicly supported him. They could have publicly rejected Paul temporarily because at that time they, like Demas, still "loved this present world" (2 Timothy 4:10).

    Also, read Mark 13:9-13 as possibly applicable to you as a Biblical Christian. For in our future, "political correctness" could make even Biblical Christianity "hate speech", because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christianity is the only way to be saved from hell (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Be prepared to be arrested and tried before courts of law for the violation of "hate speech" laws which could be instituted in our future (by the Supreme Court, without any approval from the People in Congress). If you are brought to trial, remember Mark 13:9-13, and testify as God's Holy Spirit gives you at that time. But do not expect to be set free after your testimony. You (just as I) must be willing to face imprisonment and even execution for the truths of Jesus Christ and His Word the Holy Bible (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 8:34-38, John 8:31b).
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The Bible says that everyone is a sinner. Were you excluded from what the Bible says?

    Do you realize that if even 1 commandment is broken, the whole thing falls?

    So, either you've kept every commandment consistently, or you are a fraud to insinuate that you have.

    Everyone reading this knows the truth.
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    .
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said in post #1810:

    There are no verses about giving back, returning, losing, or anything else that results in no longer having eternal life.
    You've got to be kidding! Here's the passage:

    2 Peter 2:20-22
    20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    This is just another example of your false claims. There is nothing here about giving back, returning, losing salvation or eternal life.

    There is no reason to deal with any of the other verses in your post. This one example is enough to show that your claims are wrong.

    Yet in ONE breath, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

    This one statement refutes your failed understanding of Heb 10:26-29.
     
  17. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    If one makes the claim that they have a gift from Christ that doesn't require faith, that claim should be rejected. That gift requires visibility to be believed.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  18. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Nope, I wasn't excluded, such a silly question.

    You and your one-time doings. Breaking a commandment one time does not constitute the whole thing falling. So, do you think a commandment broken 10 years ago still constitute breaking them all today? If you knew the power of God and His forgiveness through repentance, you wouldn't even bring this up.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  19. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Who has escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus? Believers or unbelievers?

    Can unbelievers escape the corruption of the world?

    Let's see what Peter also has to say about escaping the corruption of the world.

    2 Peter 1
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us (believers) all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4 Whereby are given unto us (believers) exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye (believers) might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


    According to Peter, it is believers who have escaped the corruption that is in the world, not unbelievers.

    Now we will know to whom Peter is speaking in chapter 2, verse 20; it is believers. And Peter says, 'it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them'.

    So, not knowing the way of righteousness is better than knowing it and turning their backs on the sacred command. Not knowing the way of righteousness is speaking of unbelievers, which do not possess eternal life. It is better to be an unbeliever than to have known and then turn their backs. What's worse than being an unbeliever without eternal life?

    Peter also says, 'knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ'. Can unbelievers know Jesus?

    What does Paul say in 2 Corinthians 4 -

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


    How can an unbeliever know Jesus, if the gospel is hidden to them? Aren't their minds blinded?

    And in the same chapter, Paul says -

    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Do you see to whom the light shines to give the light of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus?

    What did Peter say in John 6:69 -

    Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.


    Knowing comes after believing as mentioned above. So we know Peter was speaking of believers in 2 Peter 2.

    So, yes FG2, a believer can turn his back and be worse off than an unbeliever. And they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. In other words, they no longer are saved, nor have eternal life.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    How does one make visible the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) that Jesus gives (John 10:28) on the basis of believing in Him (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47) for it?
     
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