Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

Excuse me, but this verse says he abode not 'from the beginning'. His creation is not in view here.

You often seem to just mix up what the point was and try to build a straw man or use some other distraction from what I am actually showing.

I showed how the devil did not abide in the truth as Jesus said "he abode not in the truth". We know that when he was created he was created perfect in all his ways and a covering cherub beautiful and in the light and an eternal being. Then iniquity was found in him and he fell. So whenever that iniquity was found in him was most likely when he abode not in the truth. And since the the beginning of man and the temptation in the garden, the devil has been a murderer and liar.

So my point still stands strong. He was an angelic being who abode not in the truth. he did not continue in it.

I am not speaking about him being saved and loosing salvation. I am showing that he was in a glorious perfect state and not fallen at one point then he fell and abode not in the truth. He did not remain where he was and will end up in the lake of fire. This is a warning for all. If God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell, take heed lest he spare not you is the implication in the text. Or what would be the purpose of using high angelic beings who sinned and fell away from God and were cast into hell?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

The exhortation to lay hold of eternal life would make no sense if we could do nothing but lay hold or if we were forced by God to be in that condition without abiding in Christ.

I have no idea what your point is here.

I was showing that believers need to lay hold of eternal life, or it can be lost. If they do not continue in the faith and sow to the spirit and abide in Christ through the power of the Spirit they can loose hold of eternal life. It is a fight of faith. If they do not fight they can loose and be overcome and fall away from salvation.

They must keep the gospel by which they are saved in memory "if" the keep it in memory (1 Cor 15:2 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

If someone who believes and then later has an evil heart of unbelief then they are not saved anymore or with God, they have departed and they abide in darkness and death and withered and can be cast into the fire if they die in that state. They are in an evil heart of unbelief.

I am still waiting for any clear verse that actually says that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. Where is it?

I'll not be tricked into making wild assumptions.

If a man believes and has faith then Christ dwells in their heart. If they receive him. to them he gave the power to be called the sons of God .

And this is what Jesus said about such people: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish". John 10:28 Jesus gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, eternal security is based solely on receiving eternal life.

And, no one has proven that Jesus meant something else.

I had said this to your admission about being bothered by believers who rebel and leave the faith:
"I know all this bothers you enough to want to see them all burn in hell. No grace there, brother."

This is an absolute lie and you need to repent.

Maybe it was jbf who made that admission. So I do change my mind. But it is quite obvious that many many OSNAS campers are very bothered by the thought that a believer can leave the faith and then add some horrible scenario like satan worship/etc, yet still go to heaven. Maybe you're not all that bothered. But most sure are.

I do not want to see any burn in the lake of fire or hell.

Then you'll need to close your eyes when you get to Rev 20:15.

Some turn the grace of God into lisciviousness and some do despite the Spirit of grace.

OK.

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world, looking for the coming of our Lord.

Yes, and not everyone learns the lessons.

[/QUOTE]Some can even be removed from God and the grace of Christ and fall from grace.Which is to fall from salvation, for by grace are we saved.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to introduce you to the verses that teaches that those who HAVE BELIEVED (notice the aorist (past) tense) are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, no one who has been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit can be removed from God or
Christ.

Also, Paul said neither the present, nor th future can separate us from the love of God.

Rom 8:38,39

The problem you and others still have is that your theology cannot get past what Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life from Jn 10:28.

Therefore, recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So taught Jesus.

All believers should believe this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Where is it so "clear" that one is only "saved for a while". You seem to really like ADDING words to the Bible, in order to prop up your opinion."

I have showed you this exact thing a few times but for some reason you cannot see it.I marvel

I marveled first. Luke 8:13 does NOT SAY "saved for a while". That is an added assumption.

We saw in Luke 8:12 that if a person believed they are saved

"lest they should believe and be saved". And in Luke 8:13 we read "which for a while believe".So the second heart heard, received, for a while believed and so was saved, then fell away. Fell from that belief that they had for a while so they fell from salvaton. It is so obvious to the unbiased reader.

Those who read Luke 8:13 carefully realize that the words "fell away" refers back to their belief. What they "fell away" from was their faith, not their salvation.

Because of Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30, believers are sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption, and the Holy Spirit is the guarantee for the day of redemption.

All language of eternal security.

This is just like jesus said about being saved and having eternal life

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,[which the second heart in the parable did] and believeth [which the second heart did] on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,[which the second heart did have for a while] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Thanks for bringing up another verse that also teaches eternal security.

Notice the 3 things that are true for "whoever believes":
1. POSSESS eternal life
2. SHALL NOT come into condemnation this is no different than "shall never perish"
3. HAS PASSED from death to life

These are permanent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So my point still stands strong. He was an angelic being who abode not in the truth. he did not continue in it.

So? What does that mean? What's the significance of it?

I am not speaking about him being saved and loosing salvation. I am showing that he was in a glorious perfect state and not fallen at one point then he fell and abode not in the truth.

So, what is your point in all this?

He did not remain where he was and will end up in the lake of fire.

So? What is your point?

This is a warning for all.

Quite a twist to make this apply to believers. There is NO equality between angels and humans.

If God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell, take heed lest he spare not you is the implication in the text. Or what would be the purpose of using high angelic beings who sinned and fell away from God and were cast into hell?

To show that God judges behavior. But there is nothing in this that speaks of losing salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

The exhortation to lay hold of eternal life would make no sense if we could do nothing but lay hold or if we were forced by God to be in that condition without abiding in Christ.

OK, let's examine that phrase.

To begin with, all believers already have eternal life as a present possession, per John 5:24, 6:47, 11:26. Paul is therefore meaning that beievers ay in the life to come have a fuller experience, a more abundant experience, of eternal life. To do that, one must lay hold on that future fullness of life now.

iow, one must seek that abundant life now to get it later.

I was showing that believers need to lay hold of eternal life, or it can be lost.

Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost.

On the contrary, John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Therefore, eternal life CANNOT be lost. Or Jesus lied.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
"Where is it so "clear" that one is only "saved for a while". You seem to really like ADDING words to the Bible, in order to prop up your opinion."

I marveled first. Luke 8:13 does NOT SAY "saved for a while". That is an added assumption.

?

It says for "a while believe...fall away". The key part of the verse is for a while, this is a temporary thing they had. But notice carefully they heard the word received the word with joy and for a while believed. This is similar to what Jesus said brings eternal life. You seem to miss the previous verse that says "lest they should believe and be SAVED. To believe means to be saved. No way out of it even though you seem to try hard to make it say something different. You run to John 10:28 as if it somehow contradicts Jesus words there in Luke 8 and John 15 Matthew 10 (about Judas being one of Jesus sheep and belonging to him) and many other places. They do not contradict you must take all scripture as a whole.

I showed clearly that only if a person continues to believe and have faith they then abide in eternal life (which is to abide in Jesus)

We already saw, beyond a shadow of a doubt for the unbiased reader that Judas was called as a sheep with the other 11 and sent to the lost sheep and so he had eternal life as Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep. Then Judas fell by transgression and was lost. And that he had his name written in heaven and was blotted out of the book and no longer written with the righteous.

I already showed you that a person can be a believer and then have an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12) this is clear again that a believer is warned. We also saw that if a believer does not let the word abide in him and remain, then he will not continue in the Son and in the father and will not have the promise of eternal life applied to him. If he then as a believer walks in darkness and hates his brother he does not have eternal life abiding in him, or remaining in him or continuing with him. He also doe not have the love of God in him anymore.

But you seem to just run from these text or try to twist them to fit your doctrine. It won't work. The text are very clear to the unbiased reader.

I still marvel at how you cannot see it. i think you see with a certain view so anything that i show from scripture you cannot see it.

But I clearly showed that to believe is to be saved and to fall from that belief is to fall from salvation. To say they fell away. It not to say they are in salvation still.

Those who read Luke 8:13 carefully realize that the words "fell away" refers back to their belief. What they "fell away" from was their faith, not their salvation.

The word "believe and be saved is the word used, not faith (even though this is the same but just to be clear to the text ) You seem to accuse me of taking such liberty so lets make you stick to the text also. it says to the first hardened heart lest they should believe and be saved. Now, you can clearly see that if the first heart had believed the word in their heart they would have been saved. This is obvious from Jesus simple words. Then the next heart they heard the word and for a while believed ( and so were saved for a while) then in the time of temptation they fell away. Every man is tempted when he is draw away of his own lust and enticed and lust brings forth sin and sin death as James said.

Because of Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30, believers are sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption, and the Holy Spirit is the guarantee for the day of redemption.

All language of eternal security.

Yes all believers who abide in Christ and continue in the faith and who let the word of god remain in them are impressed with the Spirit and have the measure of the Spirit and they are truly KEPT by the power of God. But they are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. If they deny him he will deny them. God is with believers as they be with him. But if they dent him he will deny them, if they forsake him he will forsake them . As scripture clearly says.

There is a confidence in our hearts if our heart does not condemn us. This can only happen as we walk in the light and in a clean conscience, where we abide in Christ and he abides in us.

This is the true language of the believers security. It is found only as we abide ( remain, continue, dwell0 with Jesus and he with us. if we abide not we can be cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire and burned.

Thanks for bringing up another verse that also teaches eternal security.

Notice the 3 things that are true for "whoever believes":
1. POSSESS eternal life
2. SHALL NOT come into condemnation this is no different than "shall never perish"
3. HAS PASSED from death to life

These are permanent.

No ,again this is a conditional verse based upon "believing"

and you ripped it out of the use i was showing in my post. i was showing that in Luke 8 they heard the word and believed and according to jJesus they had salvation ( eternal life in them) for a while

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,[which the second heart in the parable did in Luke 8] and believeth [which the second heart did in LUke 8] on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,[which the second heart did have for a while in Luke 8] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The verse says as much and is connected to John 10:28 as well.But here Jesus clarifies and defines what he is saying in other places such as John 10. That to those who believe they have everlasting life . If a man believes not he is condemned and the wrath of God abides on him. John says similar if a person "Whosoever" including all believers as well, hates his brother he abides in darkness and death. and no longer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15 KJV)

You think this passage is confirming what you say. No it shows that a person who hears and believes is saved as the second heart did in Luke 8. But Jesus tells us that there will come a time of temptation and test etc and these ones fall away. They are similar to Judas perhaps who "fell by transgression" Or he may be similar to the third heart.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

consider this discussion I had recently with FreeGrace2

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.
Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

I said

Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children. You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

John says CLEARLY to the unbiased reader

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

. He did not say "whosever sinneth is acting like he has not seen God or is acting like he has not known him"


John clearly says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."( 1 John 3:7 KJV)

He does not say "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that acts like he doeth righteousness is acting righteous, even as he [God] is acting righteous righteous."


John Clearly says that whosever sinneth is of the devil, not acting like he is of the devil. You should seriously reconsider your words here.

" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

Do you notice how it does not say

" 8 He that committeth sin is acting like he is of the devil; for the devil was acting like he sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

John clearly says that those who do not righteousness are NOT OF GOD, not those that love not their brother. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Nowhere here does he say as you imply

10 In this the ones acting like children of God are manifest, and the ones acting like children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is acting like he is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Such a distortion of scripture!!!

It says clearly the difference from the children of God and the children of the devil. And again this is the danger in what you teach. Those believers who are tempted and drawn away and who walk in darkness and hate their brother you say are simply acting like they are not of God and yet they still are of God. You are not saying they are of the devil as John clearly says. This causes those who are of the devil to be deceived and think all is well with them and such a wrong doctrine strengthens the hands of evil doers and does not warn them of the real danger and exhortation to holiness.

This reminds me of an OT passage about false prophets which we read

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14-17 KJV)

They tell those who are of the devil and walk in sin that they are still ok, and still saved and they shall have peace. But God rebuked them for such a thing.

and to say any are simply "acting" as children of God or "acting " as children of the devil is error. It does not say that in the text. They are either one or the other.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.

Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

You still need to answer this one as I said



Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children. You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

John says CLEARLY to the unbiased reader

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

. He did not say "whosever sinneth is acting like he has not seen God or is acting like he has not known him"


John clearly says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."( 1 John 3:7 KJV)

He does not say "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that acts like he doeth righteousness is acting righteous, even as he [God] is acting righteous righteous."


John Clearly says that whosever sinneth is of the devil, not acting like he is of the devil. You should seriously reconsider your words here.

" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

Do you notice how it does not say

" 8 He that committeth sin is acting like he is of the devil; for the devil was acting like he sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

John clearly says that those who do not righteousness are NOT OF GOD, not those that love not their brother. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Nowhere here does he say as you imply

10 In this the ones acting like children of God are manifest, and the ones acting like children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is acting like he is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Such a distortion of scripture!!!

It says clearly the difference from the children of God and the children of the devil. And again this is the danger in what you teach. Those believers who are tempted and drawn away and who walk in darkness and hate their brother you say are simply acting like they are not of God and yet they still are of God. You are not saying they are of the devil as John clearly says. This causes those who are of the devil to be deceived and think all is well with them and such a wrong doctrine strengthens the hands of evil doers and does not warn them of the real danger and exhortation to holiness.

This reminds me of an OT passage about false prophets which we read

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14-17 KJV)

They tell those who are of the devil and walk in sin that they are still ok, and still saved and they shall have peace. But God rebuked them for such a thing.

and to say any are simply "acting" as children of God or "acting " as children of the devil is error. It does not say that in the text. They are either one or the other.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To show that God judges behavior. But there is nothing in this that speaks of losing salvation.

I did not say the angels lost their salvation, for they were already abiding in the life and light in the glory of God. You try to build a straw man against me here and tear it down.

I refer to a being who can be with God and abiding with him and perfect in all his ways and then they can fall and have iniquity found in them and they abide ( remain, or continue ) not in the light and will end up in the lake of fire.

The similarity and the way it is used in scripture when referring to angels is a warning for believers read the context of the sections.

Jesus even calls those who do not believe children of their father the devil. This shows the direct connection. To a fallen angel.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost.

Yes i can and i have many of them. And from page 1 I showed the clarity that jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve disciples and gave them power...and ordained and sent all twelve forth to the lost sheep as sheep. This is undeniable to the unbiased reader.

What do you think it means if jesus calls unto him "HIS" twelve disciples and gave them power to cast out devils and over the power of the enemy and to heal etc? If a believer is "HIS" does that not clearly say they were all "HIS" twelve Judas included.
? How do you get around this word "his twelve". If the text said "his eleven and one devil" that would have been different. And you cannot run to a later part of the story and say Judas was ALWAYS a devil. or that Jesus knew the end from the beginning, for Judas was not always a devil, we cannot add the words "always" Jesus also was speaking prophetically of a time when Judas "SHOULD" betray him. To betray someone you have to have once had their trust. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted. Does Jesus trust a devil ever? No.

On the contrary, John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Therefore, eternal life CANNOT be lost. Or Jesus lied.

This is the best you can come up with and you eliminate all Jesus other words that clarify this text in John. He shows the condition of believing and continue to abide in him through faith. But you take those words out of Jesus mouth and make him seem to be lying by implying that we cannot stop believing when Jesus says we can in Luke 8 and John 15 and other places. And by saying we do not have to abide to be saved, when Jesus says if we do not abide we can do nothing with out Jesus and wither up and can be cast into the fire and burned. This is a salvation issue.

And Jesus did not lie.

His words in John 10 are true, but they are after John 3 and 5 etc where Jesus talks about believing. To believe is not a one time act. We must daily believe and live by faith daily. It is not a one time act or even in the meaning of the word.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost.

PART 1.....

Yes I have and can

Here is just a small sample of the many verses including the Judas discussion on page one and all through this post...

ADAM and EVE

"27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them....(Genesis 1:27 KJV)

with...

"16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

with...

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.Genesis 2:6,7 KJV)

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;..."(Romans 5:18 KJV)

Adam and Eve were in the eternal life and would not have died . But when they ate the fruit they died spiritually and physically eventually. And needed to be born again to be saved.

next

Ananias and Sapphira

"33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,"(Acts 4:33,34)

with

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."(Acts 5;1-5 KJV)

They had salvation and had great grace upon them and Satan filled their heart and they lied to the Holy Ghost and died. All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. this caused great fear upon them all.

next

Those who had sinned under Moses

"32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."( Exodus 32:32,33 KJV)

They were in the book that Moses was in and God said he would blot them out who had sinned. So they had salvation and were blotted out of the book. Remember Moses also was willing to be blotted out of this book, and he had salvation.

next

DAVID

"2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest....9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."(Psalms 51:2-4,9-13 KJV)

David was saved and a man after God's own heart and chosen. Then he sinned and had to repent and be forgiven or else as he said there was a danger of being cast away from God's presence and having God's holy spirit taken away from him. He asked to have the new birth again, and said "create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me". The new creation needed to be formed in him again ( similar to the Galatians who had to be born again , again.) He asked to restore unto him the joy of his salvation that he had before.

next

SOLOMON

1 Chr. 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever."

"9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."(1 Chronicles 28:9 KJV)

"But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: 2 Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the Lord commanded.
11 Wherefore the Lord said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant."(1 Kings 11:1-11 KJV)

1 King. 11:40 Solomon sought therefore to kill Jeroboam. And Jeroboam arose, and fled into Egypt, unto Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.


Here we see that Solomon was saved once and God said "and he shall be my son, and I will be his father;" and we read that it was told that "if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." But Solomons heart was turned away from God and many sins are recorded about him. We do not have a record that he clearly repented he even sought to kill others. He seemed to go from righteousness in faith to unrighteous.

next

SAUL

"6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee...9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day."( 1 Samuel 10:6,7, 9 KJV)

"1 Sam. 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night."

"1 Sam. 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him."

"1 Sam. 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?"

We see that Saul had anther heart and the Spirit of God was with him and upon him. God was with him. then he had the Spirit depart from him and he sought to kill David and he killed the priest etc and died by an amalakite who took his crown

continued in part two..........

 

[LoveofTruth]

On the contrary, John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Part 2 continued....

PETER

"Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.—38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Matt. 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

Luke 22:32
"But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

Later Peter was converted back again after repenting and was restored. Jesus said when you are converted to help his brothers. But Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ the Son of God and had salvation then and was born again. But he sinned and had to come back.

THE PRODIGAL SON

as I showed already was lost and then found was dead and then alive again.

YOUNG WIDOWS

"1 Tim 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith....15 For some are already turned aside after Satan."

This shows they had salvation and then waxed against Christ and had damnation, not salvation, and cast off their first faith. This shows that to cast off your faith is to have damnation. Some believers were even turning aside after Satan.

In the last days many shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits, ( spoken of believers who go away from the faith).

BELIEVERS WHO HATE THEIR BRETHREN

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."


Actually there are too many examples and examples of the warnings and danger of believers falling away from salvation and loosing eternal life. It would take all night

I hope to cover more of them as we go along

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Where is it so "clear" that one is only "saved for a while". You seem to really like ADDING words to the Bible, in order to prop up your opinion."

I marveled first. Luke 8:13 does NOT SAY "saved for a while". That is an added assumption.

?

It says for "a while believe...fall away". The key part of the verse is for a while, this is a temporary thing they had.

Hold on. Your claim that I wa responding to was that the verse said "saved for a while". The red words that you've bolded are clear: they believed for a while and then quit believing.

One HAS TO ASSUME that they were saved only while they believed. So, where ELSE does the Bible teach this notion? No where is where.

But notice carefully they heard the word received the word with joy and for a while believed.

And the result is they were saved. They were given eternal life.

This is similar to what Jesus said brings eternal life. You seem to miss the previous verse that says "lest they should believe and be SAVED. To believe means to be saved.

Dang right it means that. And along with being saved, the believer is given eternal life.

No way out of it even though you seem to try hard to make it say something different.

I'm not at all. Your claim is empty of evidence.

You run to John 10:28 as if it somehow contradicts Jesus words there in Luke 8 and John 15 Matthew 10 (about Judas being one of Jesus sheep and belonging to him) and many other places.

Actually, Jesus said NOTHING about losing salvation in any of these passages, as much as you'd like it to be so. He just didn't.

They do not contradict you must take all scripture as a whole.

Are you NOT aware that IF Luke 8, John 15 and Matt 10 were teachings about losing salvation, then they DO CONTRADICT John 10:28.

How can you not realize this??? Jesus never spoke "out of both sides of His mouth", as you seem to be suggesting.

What you cannot disprove is that John 10:28 DOES teach eternal security.

It's YOU that must "run" to other verses and make the assumed claim that Jesus taught loss of salvation.

I showed clearly that only if a person continues to believe and have faith they then abide in eternal life (which is to abide in Jesus)

No. I've shown that you have NO verses that tell us that one must continue to believe in order to not perish.

But you seem to just run from these text or try to twist them to fit your doctrine. It won't work. The text are very clear to the unbiased reader.

Ha. Jesus directly refutes OSNAS in John 10:28. He gave NO CONDITIONS for not perishing, but you continue to ADD conditions.

I still marvel at how you cannot see it. i think you see with a certain view so anything that i show from scripture you cannot see it.

What I see in Scripture is a very clear statement from Jesus about eternal security, which refutes ALL of the verses that you assume mean loss of salvation.

But I clearly showed that to believe is to be saved and to fall from that belief is to fall from salvation.

No, you only made the claim. Repeatedly. With NO evidence from Scripture.

Where ELSE is there a verse that says what you keep claiming?

To say they fell away. It not to say they are in salvation still.

Your opinion doesn't count. Without verses that say what you assume, you've got no point. What they fell away from was their believing. Not their salvation.

But with your rose colored glasses on, you erroneously see salvation "as long as" one continues to believe. If that was really the gospel, how come there are NO SUCH VERSES anywhere in the Bible????

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,[which the second heart in the parable did in Luke 8] and believeth [which the second heart did in LUke 8] on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,[which the second heart did have for a while in Luke 8] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The verse says as much and is connected to John 10:28 as well.But here Jesus clarifies and defines what he is saying in other places such as John 10.

This is correct, that John 5:24 is connected to Jn 10:28. Both say that those who have eternal life shall never perish.

Both are clear about those who have eternal life will not perish or come into condemnation. Why can't you understand that?

And, neither verse says anything about any conditions in order to not perish or come into condemnation. Why can't you understand that either?

That to those who believe they have everlasting life .

Why stop here? In both verses, those who have eternal life will not perish. With no other conditions mentioned.

Now, if you could provide any verse that tells us plainly that eternal life can be revoked or removed or taken away, you'd have something.

But wait! We do have this verse:
Rom 11;29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

And since Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God, we actually have a verse that states the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you need in order to support your theories.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To all:

consider this discussion I had recently with FreeGrace2

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.
Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

I said

Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children. You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

John says CLEARLY to the unbiased reader

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

. He did not say "whosever sinneth is acting like he has not seen God or is acting like he has not known him"


John clearly says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."( 1 John 3:7 KJV)

He does not say "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that acts like he doeth righteousness is acting righteous, even as he [God] is acting righteous righteous."


John Clearly says that whosever sinneth is of the devil, not acting like he is of the devil. You should seriously reconsider your words here.

" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

Do you notice how it does not say

" 8 He that committeth sin is acting like he is of the devil; for the devil was acting like he sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

John clearly says that those who do not righteousness are NOT OF GOD, not those that love not their brother. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Nowhere here does he say as you imply

10 In this the ones acting like children of God are manifest, and the ones acting like children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is acting like he is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Such a distortion of scripture!!!

It says clearly the difference from the children of God and the children of the devil. And again this is the danger in what you teach. Those believers who are tempted and drawn away and who walk in darkness and hate their brother you say are simply acting like they are not of God and yet they still are of God. You are not saying they are of the devil as John clearly says. This causes those who are of the devil to be deceived and think all is well with them and such a wrong doctrine strengthens the hands of evil doers and does not warn them of the real danger and exhortation to holiness.

This reminds me of an OT passage about false prophets which we read

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14-17 KJV)

They tell those who are of the devil and walk in sin that they are still ok, and still saved and they shall have peace. But God rebuked them for such a thing.

and to say any are simply "acting" as children of God or "acting " as children of the devil is error. It does not say that in the text. They are either one or the other.

Everything you claim and assume is refuted directly and clearly in John 10:28, where Jesus taught that He is the CAUSE of anyone having eternal life, and never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.

Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?"

You still need to answer this one as I said

First, let's just note that you failed to answer or even address my question.

Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children.

Just answer my question. That'll help you understand. When any believer sins, they ARE acting, not like God's children, but like the devil's children.

It seems that's why you won't answer my question. It blows your claims away.

You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

False. The NT is full of commands to believers to be holy and blameless. Your assumptions remove any need for such commands.

And you never addressed the 4 commands specifically related to the Holy Spirit, which shows our spiritual condition, whether we're filled with and walking by the Spirit, or we're grieving/quenching the Spirit. These 2 opposite conditions are possible for EVERY believer. The first speaks of being IN fellowship with the Lord. The second speaks of being OUT of fellowship with the Lord.

The OSNAS crowd seems totally unaware of these spiritual principles.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost."

Yes i can and i have many of them.

Wrong. If that were true, you'd be "running" to those verses as often as I "run" to John 10:28 to prove eternal security.

And from page 1 I showed the clarity that jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve disciples and gave them power...and ordained and sent all twelve forth to the lost sheep as sheep. This is undeniable to the unbiased reader.

All proving...nothing. I showed proof from Scripture that when Jesus chose Judas to be one of His 12 disciples, He considered him a devil. John 6:64, 68,69,70,71.

And Jesus did not lie.

Then you are quite conflicted. Because He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, without mentioning ANY conditions. You, otoh, ADD conditions where Jesus didn't.

Just trying to "help Him out" some? huh?

His words in John 10 are true, but they are after John 3 and 5 etc where Jesus talks about believing.

What does this mean? So what that they are "after" earlier verses? Are you actually suggesting, or worse, claiming that somehow what came before 10:28 changes the obvious meaning of the words in 10:28? That would be absurd to the max.

What you cannot get around is the FACT that Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, without ADDING any conditions to recipients, as you do repeatedly.

To believe is not a one time act.

For salvation, it is. There are many verses that speak to believing for salvation using the aorist tense, which is a point in time completed action (past tense).

And when Jesus used metaphors about drinking the "water" He gives (John 4) and drinking His blood and eating His flesh (John 6), He used the aorist tense.

We must daily believe and live by faith daily. It is not a one time act or even in the meaning of the word.

You, sir, have no idea what the Scripture says or means. You haven't done your studying, as believers are commanded in 2 Tim 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way to be an approved workman is to study to present yourself approved to God.

But not to worry. Even unapproved workman who have received eternal life shall never perish. But I know you don't believe that.

So maybe you should worry, given your own views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost."

PART 1.....

Yes I have and can

No, you have not, and you cannot.

Here is just a small sample of the many verses including the Judas discussion on page one and all through this post...

ADAM and EVE

"27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them....(Genesis 1:27 KJV)

with...

"16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

with...

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.Genesis 2:6,7 KJV)

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;..."(Romans 5:18 KJV)

Adam and Eve were in the eternal life and would not have died .

Again, evidence that you've NOT studied to approve yourself to God. They DIDN'T have eternal life. That's WHY God provided the "tree of life" in the garden, that they ate from in order to continue living.

Your assumptions are just out of control.

But when they ate the fruit they died spiritually and physically eventually. And needed to be born again to be saved.

This is true but has no relevance to the discussion of losing salvation. Adam and Eve weren't created in a "saved state" as you continue to assume.

next

Ananias and Sapphira

"33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,"(Acts 4:33,34)

with

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."(Acts 5;1-5 KJV)

They had salvation and had great grace upon them and Satan filled their heart and they lied to the Holy Ghost and died. All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. this caused great fear upon them all.

Where does the text say ANYTHING about losing salvation, eternal life, or that they went to hell? It doesn't. Again, you've failed to do your studies, in order to approve yourself to God.

next

Those who had sinned under Moses

"32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."( Exodus 32:32,33 KJV)

They were in the book that Moses was in and God said he would blot them out who had sinned. So they had salvation and were blotted out of the book. Remember Moses also was willing to be blotted out of this book, and he had salvation.

Again, failure to study to show yourself approved to God. This book isn't described as the book of life. So you just go ahead and ASSUME that it is. Moses is speaking of physical death here. Which is crystal clear where Paul described that Exodus generation of idiots in 1 Cor 10. In v.1-5 Paul makes clear all of them were saved, and what he then describes is their PHYSICAL DEATH during the 40 year march because God wouldn't let them enter the land.

next

DAVID

"2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest....9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."(Psalms 51:2-4,9-13 KJV)

David was saved and a man after God's own heart and chosen.[/QOUTE]
So far, so good.!

Then he sinned and had to repent and be forgiven or else as he said there was a danger of being cast away from God's presence and having God's holy spirit taken away from him. He asked to have the new birth again

Ahh, now you've messed up again.

The Holy Spirit wasn't given to all believers UNTIL after Jesus died and rose again. That's what He promised. So in the OT, very few believers were given the Holy Spirit, and only for special purposes, like the builders and craftsmen who built the Tabernacle and Temple. And some of the leaders of the Jews. So you didn't do your homework here. Yes, he was in danger of losing the Holy Spirit. But he said NOTHING about losing salvation, as you erroneously claimed.

What he did say was to "restore in me the JOY of MY salvation". This isn't asking for salvation to be returned. But the JOY of it.

How can you not see fellowship here? That is JOY. His sin broke fellowship with the Lord, and he was asking for it back again.

and said "create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me". The new creation needed to be formed in him again ( similar to the Galatians who had to be born again , again.)

Nope again. To ask God to "create in me a CLEAN heart and RENEW a RIGHT spirit within me" is a direct request for forgiveness and restoration of fellowship with the Lord.

We know from 1 Johh 1:9 we are forgiven and cleansed (purified) only by confession of sin, which is exactly what David was doing.

He asked to restore unto him the joy of his salvation that he had before.

Yes, that's what I said. But not what you just said before this comment.

to be continued.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Continued...
from jbf's post: next

SOLOMON
1 Chr. 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever."

"9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."(1 Chronicles 28:9 KJV)

"But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: 2 Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the Lord commanded.
11 Wherefore the Lord said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant."(1 Kings 11:1-11 KJV)

1 King. 11:40 Solomon sought therefore to kill Jeroboam. And Jeroboam arose, and fled into Egypt, unto Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.


Here we see that Solomon was saved once"

My response:
Uh, nothing about being "saved once".

and God said "and he shall be my son, and I will be his father;" and we read that it was told that "if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." But Solomons heart was turned away from God and many sins are recorded about him. We do not have a record that he clearly repented he even sought to kill others. He seemed to go from righteousness in faith to unrighteous.

Let's actually examine what was said:
v.4 his heart was "not perfect". No one's is
v.6 went not fully after the Lord Do you notice "not fully"

In spite of Solomon's failure at the end of his life, if he had lost salvation, why would Jesus quote him so much as an example of anything?

Once again, you've assumed way too much.

next

SAUL

"6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee...9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day."( 1 Samuel 10:6,7, 9 KJV)

"1 Sam. 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night."

"1 Sam. 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him."

"1 Sam. 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?"

We see that Saul had anther heart and the Spirit of God was with him and upon him. God was with him.

So far so good.

then he had the Spirit depart from him and he sought to kill David and he killed the priest etc and died by an amalakite who took his crown

See comments re: David and the Holy Spirit in the OT.

But I'm glad you brought up King Saul. Consider this verse:
1 Chron 10
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and alsobecause he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Here we see God's divine discipline that led to his physical death. And the reason why. He went to a witch (medium), in which God had forbid such activity in Israel.

However, where did Saul go after his death?

We find the answer in 1 Sam 28:
v.19 - 19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israelalong with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"

I know those from the OSNAS crowd have to twist what Samuel said to Saul, but the message is clear anyway: "tomorrow you and your sons will BE WITH ME".

Hmm. Where was Samuel? He had already died and went to Paradise, of course. So Samuel was telling Saul where he would end up, with him.

What this doesn't say or mean is simply that Saul's physical body will join Samuel's physical body in the ground (grave). That would be a very stupid point to make. Samuel was clearly a saved prophet, and he wouldn't have only referred to the grave. He WAS telling Saul that Saul would join him tomorrow after dying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Part 2 continued....

PETER

"Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.—38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Matt. 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

Luke 22:32
"But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

Later Peter was converted back again after repenting and was restored. Jesus said when you are converted to help his brothers. But Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ the Son of God and had salvation then and was born again. But he sinned and had to come back.

THE PRODIGAL SON

as I showed already was lost and then found was dead and then alive again.

YOUNG WIDOWS

"1 Tim 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith....15 For some are already turned aside after Satan."

This shows they had salvation and then waxed against Christ and had damnation, not salvation, and cast off their first faith. This shows that to cast off your faith is to have damnation. Some believers were even turning aside after Satan.

In the last days many shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits, ( spoken of believers who go away from the faith).

BELIEVERS WHO HATE THEIR BRETHREN

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."


Actually there are too many examples and examples of the warnings and danger of believers falling away from salvation and loosing eternal life. It would take all night

I hope to cover more of them as we go along

I just responded to EVERY so-called example of passages that teach loss of salvation. I hope you've paid attention to HOW to refute someone else.

I explained HOW and WHY none of the passages teach loss of salvation.

That's how to refute a post. Deal with each verse or point made.

So, I'm not going to bother to do this with this post. There is no point.

If ANY of your "examples" do teach loss of salvation, then we just can't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28, which you seem clueless about.

The problem is your insistence on ADDING conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish. But Jesus never added any conditions.

But you don't believe what He said. It's that clear.