Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

I said:
"And we all know this isn't relevant at all. There is no parallel between humanity and angels. To think so is to error."

Where do we see any connection?


The only "connection" is judgment. Both men and angels will be judged. But there is no salvation connection or parallel between angels and men.

No, the angels were abiding in the truth (which is to say they abode in Christ who is the truth.) Then they abode not and fell away and are headed for the lake of fire. So as we read "if God spared not the angels that sinned" the warning is take heed lest he not spare you either (speaking to believers and the rest of the chapter spells this out to the unbiased reader). The warning is if you abide not you can also fall and end up in the lake of fire.

We read that the devil did not abide in Christ . But this shows that he once did and so the connection is also a warning for any who would not abide or remain in Christ who is the truth. And if we abide not the truth is not in us as we read the truth was not in the devil after he fell and abode not.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

again this is before John 10


2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;...20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

This is Peters warning to believers using the angels as a warning. These angels were with God before and abiding with him in Light and truth and they are eternal beings yet they will still go to the lake of fire.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I will again point out the problem with your understanding of this phrase. If it did mean that, then Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28. He would have HAD TO include this condition for recipients to not perish.

He didn't because there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to not perish.

Jesus said in John 10

John 10:28 KJV
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

with
"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

These were the ones who believed as the context and many other verses will show. Even at the end of John 10 we read that many believed in him after his talk. So if a man believes he SHOULD ( if they abide in Christ and overcome to the end and keep the faith steadfast unto the end) never perish.

We see this believing part here and the "should" part as well)

"15 That whosoever believeth in him should (first we must believe and continue to believe and the word "should" a conditional word by continual abiding) not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.[might is a conditional word again, and if we believe now we are saved or have Christ formed in us. But if we harden our hearts and believe not we lose that salvation. We see this in 1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV. "saved, If ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain"]"(John 3:15-17 KJV)

But we also read the danger of believing not. And this is possible for a person to believe and then not believe as we saw in Luke 8 about the parable of these who for a while believed and then fell away. So they did not continue to believe . To believe not means you are then lost as Jesus said

"36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." The ones who believe not are lost and under wrath and they shall not see life ever if they continue in this state and die in this state (which also defeats universalism that some might teach).

So John 10 is conditional as many verses before John 10 show. The condition is to continue in the faith and to believe unto the end abiding in Christ and overcoming by his power. If a person believe not and hardens their heart through the deceitfulness of sin they are then lost and in unbelief and departed from the living God as Hebrews 3:12 clearly says to the unbiased reader.

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"(Hebrews 3;12-14 KJV)

and the next chapter after Hebrews 3 we read

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."(Hebrews 4;1 KJV

 

[FreeGrace2]

But dissent in matters of doctrine concerning faith does not mean that the Church cannot be one Church, provided all are of one mind in willing what is good and doing it.

When one's understanding of what Scripture says saving faith is differs WIDELY from what the Word actually says, then no, they aren't part of the Church. They may be a sect, a cult, or whatever, but they fit John's description in 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Those who accept your views do not "really belong to us". The same message we find in Acts 15:24, which were believers of the "party of the Pharisees", just like your views.

Trying to be saved by keeping the Law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, the angels were abiding in the truth (which is to say they abode in Christ who is the truth.) Then they abode not and fell away and are headed for the lake of fire.

Please cite the passage that informs that the angels who "abode not and fell away" initially were "abiding in the truth".

My point is that no where in the Bible do we read about any angels being or needing saving. So there is no parallel. Esp since Jesus didn't die for any angels.
Heb 2:16 - For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.

So as we read "if God spared not the angels that sinned" the warning is take heed lest he not spare you either (speaking to believers and the rest of the chapter spells this out to the unbiased reader). The warning is if you abide not you can also fall and end up in the lake of fire.

How come you don't see this as being in direct conflict with what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life never perishing?

We read that the devil did not abide in Christ .

No we don't read that. At least NOT in the Bible. I have no idea what cult has written that.

But this shows that he once did and so the connection is also a warning for any who would not abide or remain in Christ who is the truth.

You failed to provide any context in your post, so please cite or quote the verse(s) that you are referring to.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
again this is before John 10

Christ is truth, yes. And He speaks truth, which you have clearly have not believed. So I don't think you have any grounds upon which to speak about the devil.

You yourself are NOT abiding in truth when you insist on forcing ANY conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to avoid perishing.

This is Peters warning to believers using the angels as a warning.

Peter is showing believers that God's judgment is on any and all creatures that rebel against Him. But for believers who rebel, since they HAVE eternal life, and shall never perish, they will be disciplined during their life on earth, which includes weakness, sickness, and physical death (1 Cor 11:30), and will be painful (Heb 12:11).

These angels were with God before and abiding with him in Light and truth and they are eternal beings yet they will still go to the lake of fire.

Yes, the Bible says that.

The Bible also says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, but you have to add conditions where Jesus Christ didn't.

You are therefore NOT abiding in the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus said in John 10
John 10:28 KJV
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

with
"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

These were the ones who believed as the context and many other verses will show.

I have no idea who "these" are. And which "context"? Your post is very confusing and impossible to follow.

But I am just amazed that you're going to use "should" as a possibility of not perishing for those who believe, in spite of the FACT that John 5:24 and 10:28 plainly SAY that recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH, and whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life, AND WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION.

These are FACT statements, not possibilities.

Even at the end of John 10 we read that many believed in him after his talk.

Apparently you didn't read the text very closely. Here is v.30 - Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

This was the crowd He had been speaking to.

Then v.40 - Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,

So, it was AFTER He left the place where He stated v.28 that people IN THAT REGION were coming to Him and believing in Him.

So it wasn't the same people, as you have claimed.

So if a man believes he SHOULD ( if they abide in Christ and overcome to the end and keep the faith steadfast unto the end) never perish.

Unfortunately for you, you don't have ANY verses that back up your claim.

 

[EmSw]

Everyone desires to be free, moreover, and to be rid of the unfree or servitude. The boy under a master wishes to be his own master and thus free; so every man-servant under his master or maid under her mistress. Every girl wishes to leave the paternal home and marry, to do freely in a home of her own; and every boy who desires to work, enter business, or hold some position wishes to be released from his subordination to others and to be at his own disposal.

All of these who serve willingly in order to be free compel themselves, and in doing so act from freedom according to reason but from an inner freedom, by which outward freedom is regarded as servant. We add this to confirm the fact that self-compulsion is not contrary to rationality and liberty.

 

[EmSw]

One reason why man does not wish in like manner to come out of spiritual servitude into spiritual freedom is that he does not know what either is; he does not have the truths to teach this, and without them spiritual servitude is believed to be freedom and spiritual freedom to be servitude.

A second reason is that the religion of Christendom has closed the understanding, and "faith alone" has sealed it shut. Each has built an iron wall around itself in the dogma that theological matters transcend and cannot be approached by the reason, but are for the blind and not the seeing. So truths that would teach what spiritual liberty is have been hidden.

A third reason is that few examine themselves and see their sins, and one who does not see and quit them is in the freedom that sins have, which is infernal freedom, in itself enslavement. To view heavenly freedom, which is genuine freedom, from that freedom is like trying to see daylight in pitch darkness or sunshine from under a black cloud.

So it happens that it is not known what heavenly freedom is, or that the difference between it and infernal freedom is like the difference between what is living and what is dead.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Do you think the cross was godly? Do you think OT sacrifices were carried out on a cross?
Try reading the OT.
Why are you boasting in a pagan cross?
Surely you aren't thinking the altar upon which a sacrifice was made is akin to a pagan cross.

You are a heretic, a fool, and an idiot.

That's obviously not a charitable thing to say nor do I mean it in love.

Let the chips fall where they may.

I'm about fed up with this so called "Christian" forum.

 

[EmSw]

You are a heretic, a fool, and an idiot.

That's obviously not a charitable thing to say nor do I mean it in love.

Let the chips fall where they may.

I'm about fed up with this so called "Christian" forum.

Why are you betraying the Lord?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why are you betraying the Lord?

Now, that's a ridiculous question, one who mocks the very death that paid for all your sins.

btw, both Christian ordinances, water baptism and communion, are based on the Lord's death by cross, burial and resurrection.

So it would seem you don't take part in either Christian ordinance.

Jer 31
31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD.

Compare with Luke 22:20 - In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

and which Paul repeated in 1 Cor 11:25 - In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Please explain what the Lord meant by "new covenant in My blood", and how does it relate to Jer 31:31?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please cite the passage that informs that the angels who "abode not and fell away" initially were "abiding in the truth".

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So we see here that the devil did not abide in the truth and he was a covering Cherub and created perfect in all his was at the beginning.

And we also read about God not sparing the angels that sinned but cast them DOWN into hell. This shows that they were in heaven and then cast out and down to hell. Showing they were once abiding in heaven with God and in a unfallen state until they departed and abode not.

So clearly you are in error here as you have been in most of your post when fightng against the clear scriptural teachings and the many warnings and exhortations to continue n the faith and to not depart from God and to not harden our hears etc.

We see a similarity to Judas who was a apostle (sent one of God), a sheep sent to the lost sheep, a disciple of Jesus and one of "HIS" disciples (not the devils) then he fell by transgression and was lost and became a child of the devil, the son of perdition and did not abide in the truth.

My point is that no where in the Bible do we read about any angels being or needing saving. So there is no parallel. Esp since Jesus didn't die for any angels.

Ber with me my friend i am going to be a bit more bold and firm in this response to you.

I never said anything about angels needing to be saved. This is your straw man fallacy that you are building and trying to tear down,. I never said they needed to be saved or salvation was offered to them.

i simply used the angels as they are used in the New testament scriptures as a warning for believers to take heed and not to depart from God as they did. And to show that an eternal being with everlasting life can fall and go to the lake of fire. This is obvious in scripture

i feel that you run quickly from this argument because you either may have never heard the angel argument, or you see that clearly an eternal being who is in eternal life abiding with God and who was perfect in all his ways as the devil was before he fell defeats the eternal security view clearly.

How come you don't see this as being in direct conflict with what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life never perishing?

As I showed you in many verses, Jesus qualifies his words by saying that only those who believe in him have everlasting life.

"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.""(John 3:16 KJV)

If a believers departs from that belief (which scripture shows clearly they can) and believes not then the wrath of God abides on them and they are lost .

So yes, if a person believes and continues to believe in Jesus they have eternal life ( Jesus Christ abiding in them) and they will continue in the Son and in the father.

But if they abide not and believe not and harden their hearts through the deceitfulness of sin and then have an evil heart of unbelief they can depart from the living God. And this departing is not only fellowship, it is the salvation and fellowship that they had with the father and the Son and they are in a dangerous state in that condition, and have only to look for a fearful fiery indignation if they don;t repent and come back to the faith.

"36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

No we don't read that. At least NOT in the Bible. I have no idea what cult has written that.

I said

"We read that the devil did not abide in Christ ."

and you said

"No we don't read that. At least NOT in the Bible. I have no idea what cult has written that.
I said'

I showed clearly that the devil abode not in the truth and we know that Jesus Christ is the truth, so he abode not in Christ. it is very simple here are the verses for your correction again.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Christ is truth, yes. And He speaks truth, which you have clearly have not believed. So I don't think you have any grounds upon which to speak about the devil.

I have believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Christ the saviour of the world and God manifest n the flesh for over 30 something years and have taught and ministered and planted churches for a long time. You need to reconsider your words here. I am not alone in believing that a believers can depart from God and lose salvation. You have just attacked many, many other christians and christian groups who believe the same as I do and painted with a large brush. This is all based on your wrong understanding of these issues and not understanding that we are not robots and God created us with an ability t choose and to believe or not believe. If we do not continue in the faith we will loose faith, or depart from the faith casting off our first faith and can make shipwreck of faith and so end in unbelief if we do nor to guard our hearts and lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

The exhortation to lay hold of eternal life would make no sense if we could do nothing but lay hold or if we were forced by God to be in that condition without abiding in Christ.

You yourself are NOT abiding in truth when you insist on forcing ANY conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to avoid perishing.

Peter is showing believers that God's judgment is on any and all creatures that rebel against Him. But for believers who rebel, since they HAVE eternal life, and shall never perish, they will be disciplined during their life on earth, which includes weakness, sickness, and physical death (1 Cor 11:30), and will be painful (Heb 12:11).

No scripture shows that the angels that sinned he cast into hell not simply disciplined. The sin he is warning about is an eternal one and a serious one. His words would not make sense if they were only used of angels in a discipline type of warning. Lets read them again

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Peter is also comparing these to men who sin as well. He is not talking aboit something that does not relate to believers and to the warning of any going off and teaching error etc . No he directly connects believers and the warning to them.

You are very wrong here and in your entire argument against Judas as we have seen in this entire discussion. It seems you could not come to terms with the clear verses about Judas belonging to the father then Jesus at one time and falling away and being lost. So you went off into other areas and verses. I understand that we all need to bring other verses into the discussion. But you clearly did not answer anything about Judas once believing and being a sheep and saved then later falling from salvation and being lost. You simply take a later verse and one that refers to a future event when Judas SHOULD betray Jesus and try to use that for his condition from the beginning. And Jesus knowing that Judas would betray him does not mean that Judas was always betraying him. We read that Judas once was a familiar freind of Jesus in whom he trusted. So he later on fell by transgression as scripture shows.

The Bible also says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, but you have to add conditions where Jesus Christ didn't.

Yes Jesus added belief and abiding in him as a condition in many places, as i have clearly shown by the many scriptures that you seem to ignore. You take one verse and put it against Jesus many many other verses and by doing so create your own contradiction. Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe and who abide in him then they shall never perish. If they continue in the faith and abide in him they will not be lost. He that endureth unto the end the same shall be saved.

Again do you need all the verses showing the conditions to abide in eternal life. I posted many already from Jesus John, Paul,etc.

You are therefore NOT abiding in the truth.

This is a false statement to me.

Yes I abide in the truth as I abide in Christ who is the truth.

And even your words here are in error. The word abide means to remain in the truth and to continue in the truth and to dwell in the truth. A person cannot be said to "NOT abide" in the truth unless they were once in the truth. This seems to defeat your entire argument as you falsely judged and attacked me here.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Bible also says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, but you have to add conditions where Jesus Christ didn't.

The condition is to those who believe have everlasting life As Jesus said. It is their faith that allows Christ to dwell in their heart. If they harden their heart and seal up their bowels of compassion how does God's love dwell in them? If they have an evil heart of unbelief how can you say they are in belief? We read that they depart from God if believers are hardned and have an evil heart of unbelief and are warned to fear lest they do not enter into His rest .

We also saw that a person can believe for a while and be saved for a while then fall away. Clearly as LUKE 8 says.

We know that Jesus said much about abiding in Him and conditions of his abiding in us and we in him and if men abide not they are cast forth as a branch and withered and they are said to be "without" Christ at that point. For without him we can do nothing. They are then cast into the fire and burned. This is clearly not only talking about fellowship as you have tried hard to make it say. And by the way to have fellowship with the Father and the Son, is only as we abide in the light of Christ and walk in the truth., this fellowship is in the light of salvation as we abide.

If we let the word of God abide in us and if the word remains in us then and only then can we continue in the Son and in the father and then and only then ( as we abide by faith) does the promise of eternal life apply to us. If we walk in darkness, we do not have the light in us, or the truth in us, and we walk in sin and darkness and lie if we say we are in the light. We lie if we say we are christians and walk in darkness. As scripture has constantly been correcting you in this area.

Your doctrine makes people feel justified in sin and as they walk in darkness. Your doctrine simply says to those who say they are in the light but walk in darkness that they are only loosing some fellowship with God. But that fellowship in 1 John is to walk in the light of salvation. The Light is salvation and if we walk in the light as he is in the light we are enlightened and are children of light and we are not of the darkness. if we walk in unrighteousness and not work righteousness by abiding in the light, then as John said we are not children of God but children of the devil. Yet you say they are still children of God even if they do unrighteousness and that they only loose fellowship. This is your great error and danger. It is simiiar to turning the grace of God into lisciviousness

here are some verses again to correct you

"5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."(1 John 1:5-7 KJV)

"9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."(1 John 2:9 KJV)

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."(1 JOHN 3;5 KJV)

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."(1 John 2:24,25 KJV)

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil...10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

"17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God."(1 John 3:17-21 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So we see here that the devil did not abide in the truth and he was a covering Cherub and created perfect in all his was at the beginning.

Excuse me, but this verse says he abode not 'from the beginning'. His creation is not in view here.

And we also read about God not sparing the angels that sinned but cast them DOWN into hell.

What has this to do with humans? There is nothing in Scripture about angels losing salvation. In fact, there is nothing about angels even being saved at all. So your point is not taken.

This shows that they were in heaven and then cast out and down to hell.

So?

Showing they were once abiding in heaven with God and in a unfallen state until they departed and abode not.

Again, so what?

So clearly you are in error here as you have been in most of your post when fightng against the clear scriptural teachings and the many warnings and exhortations to continue n the faith and to not depart from God and to not harden our hears etc.

I agree with all this, because you didn't error by inserting your opinion about having to continue in the faith in order to be/stay saved. Once you do that, I strongly disagree.

We see a similarity to Judas who was a apostle (sent one of God), a sheep sent to the lost sheep, a disciple of Jesus and one of "HIS" disciples (not the devils) then he fell by transgression and was lost and became a child of the devil, the son of perdition and did not abide in the truth.

The Bible is quite clear about ol' Judas. He never believed. John 6:64 compared with Peter's erroneous statement in v.68-69 and Jesus' correction in v.70-71.

And, if Judas ever did believe, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true. All you're doing here is trying to pit Scripture against itself. Not wise.

Ber with me my friend i am going to be a bit more bold and firm in this response to you.

I never said anything about angels needing to be saved. This is your straw man fallacy that you are building and trying to tear down,. I never said they needed to be saved or salvation was offered to them.

Then why in the world did you even bring them up? It seemed to me that by this false comparison with humans, you viewed angels as saved, and then fell.

So at least you do recognize that your comparing angels to humans fails.

i simply used the angels as they are used in the New testament scriptures as a warning for believers to take heed and not to depart from God as they did.

Well, it seems you're STILL NOT getting it. There is NO comparison. They were created without sin, but then did sin.

Eternal security is about those who have believed, been given eternal life, and shall never perish. Are you following at all?

And to show that an eternal being with everlasting life can fall and go to the lake of fire. This is obvious in scripture

This comparison between angels and humans is a farce. No comparison.

i feel that you run quickly from this argument because you either may have never heard the angel argument, or you see that clearly an eternal being who is in eternal life abiding with God and who was perfect in all his ways as the devil was before he fell defeats the eternal security view clearly.

Where have I "run from this argument"? I've met it head on and refuted your attempt to somehow try to equate angels going to hell with believers going to hell.

There AIN'T no comparison.

As I showed you in many verses, Jesus qualifies his words by saying that only those who believe in him have everlasting life.

And that is exactly my point. Those who have believed, meaning they have been given eternal life, shall never perish.

"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.""(John 3:16 KJV)

If a believers departs from that belief (which scripture shows clearly they can) and believes not then the wrath of God abides on them and they are lost .

Once again you express your opinion, but without ANY Scripture. Why is that?

So yes, if a person believes and continues to believe in Jesus they have eternal life ( Jesus Christ abiding in them) and they will continue in the Son and in the father.

OK, please provide any verse that says what you claim; that "if a person believes and continues to believe in Jesus they have eternal life". I don't believe your opinion.

I have believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Christ the saviour of the world and God manifest n the flesh for over 30 something years and have taught and ministered and planted churches for a long time.

That's all good, as long as your motive was pure, and not self serving.

However, when you promote the notion that God removes salvation from anyone and without any evidence for that from Scripture, you are pushing a FALSE DOCTRINE.

You need to reconsider your words here. I am not alone in believing that a believers can depart from God and lose salvation.

Having been on Christian forums for well over a decade, I know that well. But, what is your point? Just because there are others who believe as you do, how does that support your position? There are many who believe what I believe; eternal security.

But I don't play the "democracy" game here. It's not about how many believe one side vs the other side. Whoever believes in loss of salvation actually rejects what Jesus said.

You have just attacked many, many other christians and christian groups who believe the same as I do and painted with a large brush.

And I STAND by what I said.

This is all based on your wrong understanding of these issues and not understanding that we are not robots and God created us with an ability t choose and to believe or not believe.

What you have failed to understand is that once a person believes, God does a number of things that cannot be undone. If they could, how come there are NO VERSES that say so?

Here is what God does when one believes which cannot be undone:
1. saved state
2. given eternal life, that alone means they shall never perish per Jn 10:28
3. justified
4. forgiven
5. regeneration, new creature, born again
5. probably more that I am not remembering

Now, IF any of these things can be undone, please provide any verses that says so plainly, without having to resort to metaphors or figures of speech, like you have to do with the notion of loss of salvation.

If we do not continue in the faith we will loose faith, or depart from the faith casting off our first faith and can make shipwreck of faith and so end in unbelief if we do nor to guard our hearts and lay hold of eternal life.

And you STILL don't have any verse that backs up your opinion.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

The exhortation to lay hold of eternal life would make no sense if we could do nothing but lay hold or if we were forced by God to be in that condition without abiding in Christ.

I have no idea what your point is here.

You yourself are NOT abiding in truth when you insist on forcing ANY conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to avoid perishing.

Huh? That's EXACTLY my point! But it shows up in your post as from you.

No scripture shows that the angels that sinned he cast into hell not simply disciplined. The sin he is warning about is an eternal one and a serious one. His words would not make sense if they were only used of angels in a discipline type of warning. Lets read them again

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Peter is also comparing these to men who sin as well.

He says nothing about losing salvation.

In fact, he also taught eternal security, in 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

I cannot imagine how you'll explain away this verse.

Because the believer HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN, and of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED, the believer is incorruptible. That means they can never perish.

How do you explain an incorruptible person being corrupted?

You are very wrong here and in your entire argument against Judas as we have seen in this entire discussion.

Ditto towards yourself. There. I win. I said it last. lol

It seems you could not come to terms with the clear verses about Judas belonging to the father then Jesus at one time and falling away and being lost.

Are you not aware that EVERTHING belongs to the Father. Who's the Creator of EVERYTHING? God, of course. So your charge about what I "can't come to terms with" is worse than bogus.

So you went off into other areas and verses.

Sure, verses that REFUTE your opinions.

I understand that we all need to bring other verses into the discussion.

Which is why I do that. To refute your opinions from Scripture. Not just claims, as is your style.

But you clearly did not answer anything about Judas once believing and being a sheep and saved then later falling from salvation and being lost.

Rather, I showed from Scripture that Judas was a devil way before he betrayed Jesus and John 6:64 combines unbelieving disciples with the betrayer. Hm.

You simply take a later verse and one that refers to a future event when Judas SHOULD betray Jesus and try to use that for his condition from the beginning.

So you're not going to accept what Jesus said when correcting Peter's statement about the whole group (the 12) in John 6:68,69. Jesus noted THEN that Judas was a devil, which was WAAAAY back before he betrayed Jesus.

And Jesus knowing that Judas would betray him does not mean that Judas was always betraying him.

Jesus SAID that He chose him, who was a devil. How do you keep ignoring that Jesus was AWARE that Judas was a devil when He chose him?

We read that Judas once was a familiar freind of Jesus in whom he trusted. So he later on fell by transgression as scripture shows.

Wrong. Consider John 2:24 - But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people.

Your fantasy that Jesus trusted Judas is way more than laughable.

Yes Jesus added belief and abiding in him as a condition in many places, as i have clearly shown by the many scriptures that you seem to ignore.

Just provide ONE that includes this condition for never perishing. Just ONE.

You take one verse and put it against Jesus many many other verses and by doing so create your own contradiction.

lol. I've not put any verse against Jesus. That is nuts.

I HAVE put a verse against ALL the verses you've provided that you've totally misunderstood, to show you that you have misunderstood.

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe and who abide in him then they shall never perish.

Why didn't Jesus add that condition to His CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life, if that were true? That's what you run from.

If they continue in the faith and abide in him they will not be lost. He that endureth unto the end the same shall be saved.

Stop trying to change what Jesus said in John 10:28.

If the verse about "enduring to the end to be saved" referred to what you think it did, then, ONCE AGAIN, what Jesus said in Jn 10:28 cannot be true.

So you're the one who's pitting Scripture against Scripture.

Or, more likely, just REJECTING Jn 10:28 in order to push your agenda.

Again do you need all the verses showing the conditions to abide in eternal life. I posted many already from Jesus John, Paul,etc.

Nope. Not even close.

I said:
"You are therefore NOT abiding in the truth."

This is a false statement to me.

It is TRUE because you have rejected John 10:28 as stated by Jesus.

Yes I abide in the truth as I abide in Christ who is the truth.

No, you have directly rejected what Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life, by inserting your pet condition where Jesus never did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The Bible also says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, but you have to add conditions where Jesus Christ didn't."

The condition is to those who believe have everlasting life As Jesus said.

So, who do you think "recipients of eternal life" are? Believers.

But you go FARTHER than Jesus did. He included NO CONDITIONS for recipients (believers) never perishing. But you don't believe that and FORCE a condition into where He didn't.

It is their faith that allows Christ to dwell in their heart.

No, Christ doesn't need to be "allowed" in. He COMES in, on the basis of faith.

If they harden their heart and seal up their bowels of compassion how does God's love dwell in them? If they have an evil heart of unbelief how can you say they are in belief? We read that they depart from God if believers are hardned and have an evil heart of unbelief and are warned to fear lest they do not enter into His rest .

I know all this bothers you enough to want to see them all burn in hell. No grace there, brother.

But God is GRACE. Once saved by grace, always kept by grace.

We also saw that a person can believe for a while and be saved for a while then fall away. Clearly as LUKE 8 says.

Where is it so "clear" that one is only "saved for a while". You seem to really like ADDING words to the Bible, in order to prop up your opinion.

We know that Jesus said much about abiding in Him and conditions of his abiding in us and we in him and if men abide not they are cast forth as a branch and withered and they are said to be "without" Christ at that point. For without him we can do nothing. They are then cast into the fire and burned. This is clearly not only talking about fellowship as you have tried hard to make it say. And by the way to have fellowship with the Father and the Son, is only as we abide in the light of Christ and walk in the truth., this fellowship is in the light of salvation as we abide.

You just fail to understand the concept of fellowship.

Your doctrine makes people feel justified in sin and as they walk in darkness.

Have you taken a poll on this? How do you know what any others "feel"? We do know, otoh, how you "feel" about it. You are bothered and want to see those who bother you to burn in hell. Again, no grace there.

Your doctrine simply says to those who say they are in the light but walk in darkness that they are only loosing some fellowship with God.

Nope. ALL fellowship. And instead of blessings from God, they will face painful discipline in their lives.

But that fellowship in 1 John is to walk in the light of salvation.

Yes, we ARE to walk in the light of salvation. But it seems you fail to understand what that means.

The Light is salvation and if we walk in the light as he is in the light we are enlightened and are children of light and we are not of the darkness. if we walk in unrighteousness and not work righteousness by abiding in the light, then as John said we are not children of God but children of the devil.

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.

Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

Yet you say they are still children of God even if they do unrighteousness and that they only loose fellowship. This is your great error and danger. It is simiiar to turning the grace of God into lisciviousness

What I'm saying is exactly what Jesus said, that you seem to reject; those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

But you just can't stand the thought of that, huh.

here are some verses again to correct you

 

[EmSw]

I said this:
"The Bible also says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, but you have to add conditions where Jesus Christ didn't."

So, who do you think "recipients of eternal life" are? Believers.

But you go FARTHER than Jesus did. He included NO CONDITIONS for recipients (believers) never perishing. But you don't believe that and FORCE a condition into where He didn't.

Oh ye of little faith.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh ye of little faith.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Anyone is free to ignore or reject the clear message of Jesus about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

 

[EmSw]

Anyone is free to ignore or reject the clear message of Jesus about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

Is that why you ignore and reject Luke 13:3?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is that why you ignore and reject Luke 13:3?

I consider trying to pit Scripture against itself as the height of stupidity.

There is nothing in any verse that contradicts John 10:28.

But since you seem to think contrary, please explain that Jesus WASN'T teaching the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in Jn 10:28.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So, who do you think "recipients of eternal life" are? Believers.

If someone who believes and then later has an evil heart of unbelief then they are not saved anymore or with God, they have departed and they abide in darkness and death and withered and can be cast into the fire if they die in that state. They are in an evil heart of unbelief.

John seemed to write of this error you try to speak of, when some say they are in the light and yet walk in darkness, or they say they are in the light and hate their brother etc. It is like those who say they are saved in faith and yet walk in darkness and unbelief and still say they are saved.

No, Christ doesn't need to be "allowed" in. He COMES in, on the basis of faith.

If a man believes and has faith then Christ dwells in their heart. If they receive him. to them he gave the power to be called the sons of God .

the one soil (heart) received the word with joy, and so the word gave them new birth they for a while believed (and were saved for a while) then fell away from that belief. and were lost.

I know all this bothers you enough to want to see them all burn in hell. No grace there, brother.

This is an absolute lie and you need to repent. I do not want to see any burn in the lake of fire or hell.

But God is GRACE. Once saved by grace, always kept by grace.

Some turn the grace of God into lisciviousness and some do despite the Spirit of grace. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world, looking for the coming of our Lord.

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"(Titus 2;11,12 KJV)

If a man says he is in grace and does not live this way he is not in the grace.

Some can even be removed from God and the grace of Christ and fall from grace.Which is to fall from salvation, for by grace are we saved.

Here, John is describing how believers are acting. They either act like God's children, which they're supposed to, or they're acting like children of the devil.
Don't you understand that when you sin, you're acting like one of the devil's children?

Where does John say they are "acting" this is your wresting of scripture and it is a serious error. Nowhere do we see that they are "acting" like the devils children. You either ARE one of God's children and abiding in Christ and in the light, or you are one of the devils children and not walking in the light but instead walking in darkness and not abiding in Christ. Judas was one who was in the light and then went onto darkness and became a child of the devil. Though he was not always one as scripture clearly shows.

John says CLEARLY to the unbiased reader

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. "(1 John 3:6 KJV)

. He did not say "whosever sinneth is acting like he has not seen God or is acting like he has not known him"

John clearly says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."( 1 John 3:7 KJV)

He does not say "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that acts like he doeth righteousness is acting righteous, even as he [God] is acting righteous righteous."

John Clearly says that whosever sinneth is of the devil, not acting like he is of the devil. You should seriously reconsider your words here.

" 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

Do you notice how it does not say

" 8 He that committeth sin is acting like he is of the devil; for the devil was acting like he sinneth from the beginning."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

John clearly says that those who do not righteousness are NOT OF GOD, not those that love not their brother. He did not say they are acting like they are not of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Nowhere here does he say as you imply

10 In this the ones acting like children of God are manifest, and the ones acting like children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is acting like he is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."(1 John 3:6-8 KJV)

Such a distortion of scripture!!!

It says clearly the difference from the children of God and the children of the devil. And again this is the danger in what you teach. Those believers who are tempted and drawn away and who walk in darkness and hate their brother you say are simply acting like they are not of God and yet they still are of God. You are not saying they are of the devil as John clearly says. This causes those who are of the devil to be deceived and think all is well with them and such a wrong doctrine strengthens the hands of evil doers and does not warn them of the real danger and exhortation to holiness.

This reminds me of an OT passage about false prophets which we read

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14-17 KJV)

They tell those who are of the devil and walk in sin that they are still ok, and still saved and they shall have peace. But God rebuked them for such a thing.

What I'm saying is exactly what Jesus said, that you seem to reject; those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

You are not saying what Jesus said, you take one verse and do not harmonize it with Jesus other statements about only believers shall never perish. You seem to think a person who believes could never fall and not believe. But as i have shown clearly Judas once was saved and lost it and fell by transgression and he was one who had eternal life as one of Jesus sheep and lost it.

Almost every word you speak here needs to be corrected. I think the reason for this is if the foundation is not sure the entire house will collapse.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Where is it so "clear" that one is only "saved for a while". You seem to really like ADDING words to the Bible, in order to prop up your opinion.

I have showed you this exact thing a few times but for some reason you cannot see it.I marvel

We saw in Luke 8:12 that if a person believed they are saved "lest they should believe and be saved". And in Luke 8:13 we read "which for a while believe".So the second heart heard, received, for a while believed and so was saved, then fell away. Fell from that belief that they had for a while so they fell from salvaton. It is so obvious to the unbiased reader.

This is just like jesus said about being saved and having eternal life

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,[which the second heart in the parable did] and believeth [which the second heart did] on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,[which the second heart did have for a while] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."



here it is the parable discussed again

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,[first point, the word is the seed sown in their hearts. This doe not mean the seed is in union with their hearts at the new birth yet, for they have to receive the word first to be saved]

"...lest they should believe and be saved.[next point, if they had believed in this first part they would have been saved. This is very clear from the text]

"13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;[here we see that they received the word read John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

"..and these have no root, which for a while believe,[here we see that the ones with this heart receive the word and believe for a while. That CLEARLY means they were SAVED for a while. We already saw that if the ones on the previous ground had believed they would be saved. These ones believed and were saved. But they only believed for a while. In the time of temptation they fell away. Perhaps many that followed Jesus were like this believing for a while then fell away. And Jesus knew who they were.]

"..and in time of temptation fall away."[here we see the end of those who only believe for a while, and who are only saved for a while, they fall away. This is to fall away from Salvation as the text shows. For they only believed ( and were saved) for a while. This is very clear to the unbiased reader. The word "fall away, means to depart, be removed, to desist, to revolt And as we read in Hebrews 3;12 believers are warned not to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. ](Luke 8:11-13 KJV)