Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[FreeGrace2]

Keep reading in John 6.

Oh, yes, let's do.

But, let's include v.64, just for context;
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also WE have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Did you notice the twelve had come to believe?

Uh, no, I did not. As I will explain.

In verses 70 and 71, Jesus did not say anything about Judas not believing, but rather, that he (Judas) would betray Him.

Here's the deal. We see from v.64 that the betrayer is included in those disciples who "did not believe". And, when Peter thought he was speaking for all 12, Jesus actually was correcting him, by noting Judas was a devil.

Notice that ch 6 is waaaaay before ch 13 and the Last Supper when Satan actually entered the scumbag. So Jesus knew all along who Judas was.

He never believed.

But the real issue here about the scumbag is this:
If he really had believed at one point, and then lost his salvation, then what Jesus said about recipients never perishing was a LIE, and NOT true.

So, I believe what Jesus said about Judas being a devil (unbeliever) and that recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.

Apparently you believe the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

Interesting. Which doesn't surprise me as one who mocks the cross.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I said, Jesus never corrected Peter by saying Judas never believed. Are you saying devils can't believe?

I am totally uninterested in what you said, as one who mocks the cross.

Jesus DID correct Peter in v.70 and 71. It's clear enough for those who believe the Bible.

 

[EmSw]

Oh, yes, let's do.

But, let's include v.64, just for context;
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Verse 60 tells us plainly what they did not believe. It was His saying to drink His blood and eat His flesh. Do not add more that what is given.

Uh, no, I did not. As I will explain.


Here's the deal. We see from v.64 that the betrayer is included in those disciples who "did not believe". And, when Peter thought he was speaking for all 12, Jesus actually was correcting him, by noting Judas was a devil.

Notice that ch 6 is waaaaay before ch 13 and the Last Supper when Satan actually entered the scumbag. So Jesus knew all along who Judas was.

He never believed.

But the real issue here about the scumbag is this:
If he really had believed at one point, and then lost his salvation, then what Jesus said about recipients never perishing was a LIE, and NOT true.

So, I believe what Jesus said about Judas being a devil (unbeliever) and that recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.

Apparently you believe the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

Interesting. Which doesn't surprise me as one who mocks the cross.

How can one become a disciple of Jesus, that is, a pupil and learner, without believing what the Master teaches? Without believing the Teacher, one would never be a pupil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verse 60 tells us plainly what they did not believe. It was His saying to drink His blood and eat His flesh. Do not add more that what is given.

Let's look at the real context:
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Yes, His teaching was about His "flesh and blood", which wasn't literal, but figurative for believing in what He was going to do, that is, die on a cross for salvation. That's what they were having a hard time accepting. Just as you are, by mocking the cross.

But v.62 and v.63 was the "straw that broke the camel's back". That's why they left. When He specifically mentioned that He would return to heaven from God, a statement about His Deity. And v.63 links what He taught with "life", which is eternal life.

Again, you've been refuted from Jesus Himself.

How can one become a disciple of Jesus, that is, a pupil and learner, without believing what the Master teaches? Without believing the Teacher, one would never be a pupil.

Just go back and read v.64.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, he wasn't. The whole group were compared "as sheep" to go to "wolves".

Obviously they were not literal sheep. But as you said and I am saying the "whole group" Judas included, was called sheep sent to the lost sheep. The difference is that the found sheep ( the TWELVE that Jesus sent forth) were sent to the LOST sheep.

When Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice" these are not literal sheep, but his saved ones as Judas and the eleven were all called sheep sent to the lost sheep.

And to say they were all as sheep among wolves, shows that they were not wolves ( Judas included)

There is no way out of this for you. Clearly Jesus called "HIS" twelve sheep , apostles and sent them forth and gave them power. TWELVE not ELEVEN and one devil. TWELVE includes JUDAS.

Try to answer and deal with Matthew 10:1 were we read that Jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve...do you say that Judas was not one of HIS twelve there? He obviously was and so the twelve mentioned in that chapter include Judas, who was given power to cast out devil and heal and who had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him and the peace of God to give and was of Jesus own household and sent as a sheep.

I marvel at how you seem to have a blind spot in seeing this it is right in the text. But like you said you will never believe what I show from scripture here. You cannot agree with the scriptures I show because they would immediately correct your view.

I have soo many scriptures that defeat the OSAS doctrine we would be here for weeks just going through them, maybe months. But I am focusing on Judas because he is a strong case.

Clearly, he wasn't a believer. As John 6:64 indicates: Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

I already dealt with the one with clear understanding and examples. And to betray someone you once have to have the trust of them. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted and then he lifted up his heel against Jesus. And to say Jesus knew those who believed not, can mean they never believed or that they once believed and did not continue to believe and departed from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. You imply the word "NEVER" believed.

So, in ch 6, which is waaaaay before the Last Supper, Jesus called Judas a devil.

Still close to the supper and long after Matthew 10 when we see the beginning of Judas ministry and when Jesus called "HIS" twelve to him Judas included. We already saw in John 17:6 that Judas was once belonging to the father even before he was given to Jesus, Jesus said of the twelve "thine they were", past tense.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Why can't the "Spirit of your Father" speak in Judas just as God spoke through a donkey in the OT? Sorry, but this boat don't float.

wow you even see that the verse does relate to the twelve about the Spirit of the father speaking in them and you simply compare this to the donkey story of the OT, wow.

God dwells in those who believe and as sheep they had eternal life in them which is Jesus Christ in them. They wee born again and we see this evident when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God. In 1 John 4:15 and 1 John 5:1, we see that a person who confesses this has the God dwelling IN THEM and is born of God.

If you try to belittle Judas as a donkey for having the Spirit of the father speaking in him, then you do the same for the other eleven, for Jesus spoke to the twelve about this as he did in the chapater previous and after. The TWELVE (Judas included, seems to be your trouble and shatters your doctrine clearly to the unbiased reader.

Remember you have heard over and over Matthew 10:1 where Jesus called unto him "HIS twelve disciples...apostles...sheep and sent the twelve forth....

and you cannot answer Matthew 10:1, or the verses that follows it.

You seem to distort that scripture to read "he called unto him his eleven and one devil and gave the eleven power."

But it does not say that as you know and this is your trouble. You seem to know this, so you run to a later story where we read of Jesus giving a prophecy of Judas in the future betraying him, the words "should betray him" are telling. Should is future. We see Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss in the garden. And later we read "then Satan entered into him". We don;t read that Satan entered into him before that .

And you cannot betray someone unless you once had their trust.

Even if Judas was a devil when Jesus spoke to the twelve whom he had chosen. That was after beginning of his ministry in Matthew 10

We read in Acts 1 that Judas obtained part of the ministry and he was numbered among them as a bishop and fell by transgression.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We can leave the faith.

If we leave faith we are in unbelief and lost. The just shall live by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God

some will deny the faith ,

cast off their first faith having damnation

depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits

make shipwreck of faith,

have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

etc

But we cannot leave our:
1. salvation
2. justification
3. sealing with the Holy Spirit

But if there are any verses that say we can, I will repent.

There are many verses that say this. But again it is a long talk, we can get into them as well Lord willing if you want. But I see Judas as a clear one, he was one of Jesus sheep, and of His household and given power of the spirit to cast out devils, was justified by his faith and trusted by Jesus at one time and then he fell away and was lost and went to his own place and was blotted out of the book of the living

Check out the context, in which the subject is "enduring". Paul said IF we endure (in the faith obviously) we WILL reign with Christ. This is an eternal reward for enduring.

Then he gives the contrast, "but IF we deny Him, He will deny us." The obvious meaning is that the believer who doesn't endure, but denies Him will be denied reigning with Christ.

I refer to when Jesus said if you deny me I will deny you before the father. To have Jesus deny any before the Father is not something any want. This is not to be confessed before God in salvation.

"Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

If one wants to argue that Judas was saved at one point, then one MUST ARGUE that Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28.

You can't have it both ways.

I have answered this already but you seem to allow for a contradiction in the two areas of scripture. I harmonize them all. This is not right to say you can't have it both ways and you choose one verse out of context and meaning to side with.

I never argue that Jesus was wrong.

If a man abide in Jesus he has eternal life, because Jesus Christ is that eternal life. If they abide not in Jesus they abide in death not eternal life. Jesus Christ never ends but men's relationship and life with him can if they abide not. Then they can only wither and die and will be cast into the fire.

This is all very clear in John 15 as i have shown in depth. And 1 John 1:1,2 ,1 John 3:15 , and 1 John 5:20 show that eternal life is Jesus Christ and this life is either in a person or not abiding in them if they hate their brother etc.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Obviously they were not literal sheep.

I don't recall anyone making that claim.

But as you said and I am saying the "whole group" Judas included, was called sheep sent to the lost sheep.

Again, Jesus called no one a "sheep". He was comparing His group against those they were going to. "as sheep" isn't calling anyone a sheep.

The difference is that the found sheep ( the TWELVE that Jesus sent forth) were sent to the LOST sheep.

Excuse me, but where would I find the verse that indicates those "like sheep" were "found"? I believe your imagination is running wild.

When Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice" these are not literal sheep, but his saved ones as Judas and the eleven were all called sheep sent to the lost sheep.

And.....there is no contextual connection between matt 19 and John 10. There just isn't.

Some of the same words are found in both texts, but that doesn't link anything.

And to say they were all as sheep among wolves, shows that they were not wolves ( Judas included)

I'll explain what it DOESN'T say. It doesn't say 'I'm sending saved people to unsaved people'.

There is no way out of this for you. Clearly Jesus called "HIS" twelve sheep , apostles and sent them forth and gave them power. TWELVE not ELEVEN and one devil. TWELVE includes JUDAS.

I'm not the stuck one. That'd be you. Jesus called Judas a devil waaaay before the Last Supper. Connect the dots.

Try to answer and deal with Matthew 10:1 were we read that Jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve...do you say that Judas was not one of HIS twelve there?

Well, what would be pretty stupid, huh. Of course Judas belonged to the group that Jesus chose. And John 6:64 with 68-71 shows that Judas, even waaaay back then, was a devil and would betray Jesus.

I'd go so far as to say there's no way out for you.

He obviously was and so the twelve mentioned in that chapter include Judas, who was given power to cast out devil and heal and who had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him and the peace of God to give and was of Jesus own household and sent as a sheep.

I recall God giving power to a donkey. Would you claim that donkey was on its way to heaven?

I marvel at how you seem to have a blind spot in seeing this it is right in the text.

How about that! We both marvel at each other, and for the same reason. Go figure.

But like you said you will never believe what I show from scripture here.

Just know that ALL the Scripture you show I DO believe, but I just don't believe how you think it means.

You cannot agree with the scriptures I show because they would immediately correct your view.

Instead, I DO agree with all the verses you've showed, but just YOUR VIEW of what they mean. It's YOUR VIEW that I strongly disagree with, not what the verses say.

Let's get real here. Do you believe that Judas was saved, and then lost His salvation?

If 'yes', then where does the Scripture indicate the TIME he lost his salvation?

Thanks.

I have soo many scriptures that defeat the OSAS doctrine we would be here for weeks just going through them, maybe months. But I am focusing on Judas because he is a strong case.

You're hardly the first person I've debated eternal security with. So I've seen ALL of the arguments against it.

And NONE of the verses say that salvation can be lost.

I already dealt with the one with clear understanding and examples. And to betray someone you once have to have the trust of them.

This would highly suggest that Jesus actually trusted Judas at some point, and then was later disappointed in him for betraying Him. What a joke.

Are you kidding? Jesus is God in the flesh. As such, He is omniscient. He ALWAYS knew that Judas was a devil and would betray Him, as Scriptures prophesied.

It seems you've failed to think your argument through.

Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted and then he lifted up his heel against Jesus. And to say Jesus knew those who believed not, can mean they never believed or that they once believed and did not continue to believe and departed from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. You imply the word "NEVER" believed.

Nonsense.

Still close to the supper and long after Matthew 10 when we see the beginning of Judas ministry and when Jesus called "HIS" twelve to him Judas included. We already saw in John 17:6 that Judas was once belonging to the father even before he was given to Jesus, Jesus said of the twelve "thine they were", past tense.

OK, enough of all this vagueness. Please provide verses with explanation that supports your claims.

Here is Jn 17:6 - “I have revealed youto those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Is this your "proof-text"?

Let's read a bit farther in the text.
v.12 - 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe bythat name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Do you really think Jesus trusted Judas as a believer before being betrayed?

Scripture prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed by a 'friend' (inner circle-the 12).

He knew from the beginning who Judas was.

But, the real problem with your view is it MUST deny the truth of what Jesus said in John 10:28. That recipients of eternal life CANNOT PERISH.

If Judas had believed and been saved, we know he perished. So that makes Jesus a liar.

I challenge you to address this huge problem with your view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

wow you even see that the verse does relate to the twelve about the Spirit of the father speaking in them and you simply compare this to the donkey story of the OT, wow.

No reason not to. You're the one all excited about the power Jesus gave Judas. Why aren't you so excited about the power that God gave to the donkey?

God dwells in those who believe and as sheep they had eternal life in them which is Jesus Christ in them.

Assumption, speculation, opinion. None of which is supported from Scripture.

They wee born again and we see this evident when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

Peter only thought he was speaking for the 12. But we see in v.70,71 that Jesus had to correct his erroneous view.

In 1 John 4:15 and 1 John 5:1, we see that a person who confesses this has the God dwelling IN THEM and is born of God.

Without a doubt Peter was saved. So were 10 other disciples. But Peter was wrong about Judas. Which is why Jesus had to correct him quite plainly.

If you try to belittle Judas as a donkey for having the Spirit of the father speaking in him, then you do the same for the other eleven, for Jesus spoke to the twelve about this as he did in the chapater previous and after. The TWELVE (Judas included, seems to be your trouble and shatters your doctrine clearly to the unbiased reader.

lol. You've got quite an imagination there. First, I didn't belittle anyone, even the devil Judas. Jesus did that quite well. He was a devil and a betrayer. The ones he really betrayed was the rest of the disciples. They were the ones who were surprised.

Remember you have heard over and over Matthew 10:1 where Jesus called unto him "HIS twelve disciples...apostles...sheep and sent the twelve forth....

Of course Judas belonged to the 12 disciples. Remember that Jesus admitted that He chose Judas, who is a devil. So EVEN WHEN Jesus chose Judas, he was ALREADY a devil.

And you have the chutzpah to claim Judas was saved???

and you cannot answer Matthew 10:1, or the verses that follows it.

I have many times, and in this post response to your post.

You seem to distort that scripture to read "he called unto him his eleven and one devil and gave the eleven power."

Actually you ARE distorting what I believe and have said. I NEVR denied that Jesus chose Judas, who was a devil. Just read John 6:70, if you believe Scripture.

But I DO believe Scripture. So don't make that mistake again.

But it does not say that as you know and this is your trouble. You seem to know this, so you run to a later story where we read of Jesus giving a prophecy of Judas in the future betraying him, the words "should betray him" are telling. Should is future. We see Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss in the garden. And later we read "then Satan entered into him". We don;t read that Satan entered into him before that .

In my previous post in response to one of yours I asked you to answer this:
"Do you believe that Judas was saved, and then lost His salvation?

If 'yes', then where does the Scripture indicate the TIME he lost his salvation?"

And you cannot betray someone unless you once had their trust.

If you really believe that Jesus trusted Judas, who He chose when a devil, then you HAVE TO deny that Jesus is God and omniscient.

So, which is it?

Even if Judas was a devil when Jesus spoke to the twelve whom he had chosen. That was after beginning of his ministry in Matthew 10

John 6 wasn't that far from the beginning of His ministry.

We read in Acts 1 that Judas obtained part of the ministry and he was numbered among them as a bishop and fell by transgression.

He sure did. But nothing about having been saved and losing his salvation, is there?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
We can leave the faith.

If we leave faith we are in unbelief and lost.

OK, go ahead and try to refute what Jesus said aboug the matter. He said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. But, obviously, you don't seem to believe that.

The just shall live by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God

some will deny the faith ,
cast off their first faith having damnation
depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits
make shipwreck of faith,
have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
etc

Yes, all true. But where does the Bible say in plain language that one's salvation can be lost? You've not shown ANY that say that.

I never argue that Jesus was wrong.

Sure you do. All the time.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. But you reject eternal security and claim saved people CAN perish.

How can you NOT SEE THIS as a direct conflict with the plain words of Jesus????

If a man abide in Jesus he has eternal life, because Jesus Christ is that eternal life. If they abide not in Jesus they abide in death not eternal life.

How do you NOT see this as claiming that we are in charge of our salvation? That if we don't continue to "abide" we actually DO perish.

Even though Jesus said those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

A clear conflict with your view and what Jesus taught.

So don't claim that you don't argue with Jesus, when your view does that constantly.

Jesus Christ never ends but men's relationship and life with him can if they abide not.

You've given ZERO verses that say what you claim here. So why are you making this claim?

Then they can only wither and die and will be cast into the fire.

Oh, I see. You're just much more brilliant than any of His disciples, who had to ask Him what His parables meant. Wow. Do I need to take a knee, or something?

This is all very clear in John 15 as i have shown in depth.

Yes, your opinions are quite deep. But just as wrong as well.
The point of John 15 is fruit bearing if one abides.

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
We can leave the faith.

OK, go ahead and try to refute what Jesus said aboug the matter. He said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. But, obviously, you don't seem to believe that.


Yes, all true. But where does the Bible say in plain language that one's salvation can be lost? You've not shown ANY that say that.

The Bible never says salvation can be lost, because it's man that is lost, not salvation.

Does salvation need salvation? If salvation is lost, then where are we ever told to find the lost salvation?

Can sheep be lost? Yes, they can. And if sheep can be lost, that means no salvation. Perhaps you can show us that a lost man is saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible never says salvation can be lost, because it's man that is lost, not salvation.

That's correct. Man is born lost, which is why Jesus had to go to the cross that you mock; to pay the sin debt for mankind.

And when someone believes in the work that Christ did on that cross that you mock, they receive eternal life, and therefore, shall never perish.

Does salvation need salvation?

There is no answer to such a ridiculous question.

If salvation is lost, then where are we ever told to find the lost salvation?

Of course we aren't told that.

Can sheep be lost? Yes, they can.

Sure. They're among the most stupid of animals. No wonder the Bible likes to refer to man as a sheep.

And if sheep can be lost, that means no salvation. Perhaps you can show us that a lost man is saved.

Again, such a ridiculous question has no answer.

I CAN show who Jesus came to die for:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God.

Rom 5:6m You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;[/QUOTE]

 

[LoveofTruth]

.
Assumption, speculation, opinion. None of which is supported from Scripture

I said

“God dwells in those who believe and as sheep they had eternal life in them which is Jesus Christ in them“

And you said it was assumption, speculation, opinion. And was not supported by scripture.

Here is your rebuke here

1 John 4 - 15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

2 Corinthians 13 - 5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

John 10 - 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.” And we know that Judas was given to Jesus by the Father and was belonging to the Father before given, John 17:6 KJV

And we see clearly that The twelve belonged to Jesus, followed him and had the Spirit of the Father speaking in them. Matthew 10

Jesus said that they were of his household and as their master (Jesus)

They also had the peace of God to give they could have no peace to give unless they were in it.

And as I keep showing you, Jesus called unto him “HIS” twelve. The stress I show is on the “his” part. They did not belong to the devil any of them at that time.

Jesus also sent them to the LOST sheep. Showing strongly that they were FOUND and saved sheep he sent them as sheep among wolves. They were not wolves (Judas included at this time)

We read in scripture

Psalm 100 - 3. Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.”

"his" people are his sheep as we read Jesus calling his sheep , disciples, apostles and they cane to him

Matthew 10 - 1. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease”


You directly deny the text and say Judas was not one of “his” sheep.

If s man belongs to Christ do you agree that they are saved? Not just in some group among the saved?

We also see that he gave power to all twelve including Judas . This power was to cast out devil and heal and they were affective at it and by having this power given it shows that Judas was not of Satan at that time for Satan cannot cast put Satan.

Also Jesus said they had their names written in the book of life by being given such power.Judas was also given this power as it shows clearly in Matthew and other places

Luke 10 - 19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Oh, yes, let's do.

But, let's include v.64, just for context;
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.


Uh, no, I did not. As I will explain.


Here's the deal. We see from v.64 that the betrayer is included in those disciples who "did not believe". And, when Peter thought he was speaking for all 12, Jesus actually was correcting him, by noting Judas was a devil.

Notice that ch 6 is waaaaay before ch 13 and the Last Supper when Satan actually entered the scumbag. So Jesus knew all along who Judas was.

He never believed.

But the real issue here about the scumbag is this:
If he really had believed at one point, and then lost his salvation, then what Jesus said about recipients never perishing was a LIE, and NOT true.

So, I believe what Jesus said about Judas being a devil (unbeliever) and that recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.

Apparently you believe the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

Interesting. Which doesn't surprise me as one who mocks the cross.

Eternal life is Jesus Christ as I have shown. He is the life and eternal life 1 John 1:1,2 1 John 5:20, and in 1 John 3:15 we see that the condition of the heart shows if they abide or remain in eternal life or not

We also read when eternal life is promised only as believers ABIDE in Christ and his word abides in them. There is a condition “if”

1 John 2 - 24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. “

Galatians 6 - 8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

 

[EmSw]

That's correct. Man is born lost, which is why Jesus had to go to the cross that you mock; to pay the sin debt for mankind.

And when someone believes in the work that Christ did on that cross that you mock, they receive eternal life, and therefore, shall never perish.

You must have a make-stuff-up religion. My Bible does not say 'believe in the work that Christ did on that cross' to receive eternal life. Yep, if you can't find what you want, just make it up.

Let me give some advice; never become a pastor. How will you tell a mother and father whose newborn died, that their child is lost? What horrible news you would have for them.

Sure. They're among the most stupid of animals. No wonder the Bible likes to refer to man as a sheep.

So, now you call the people who follow Jesus, 'among the most stupid'. It is the most stupid people who believe in Jesus, right?

I CAN show who Jesus came to die for:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Very good. Now let's also see to whom Jesus was sent. Remember, He came to save the lost.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Bingo! Jackpot! Bullseye! He was sent to save the lost, which was the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel. So my dear friend, we do see that sheep can be lost and need to be saved.

I wonder what your make-stuff-up religion will make up on this.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God.

Rom 5:6m You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

You forgot a very important one.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Wow, and to think you believe His sheep have eternal life, when they weren't even saved.

I also see you are an 'eternal death' universalist. You mean no one from the OT was saved? I believe that is your belief, since you have failed to produce any OT passage which states how they received life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said

“God dwells in those who believe and as sheep they had eternal life in them which is Jesus Christ in them“

And you said it was assumption, speculation, opinion. And was not supported by scripture.

Sorry. I misread your comment. The statement is true.

John 10 - 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.” And we know that Judas was given to Jesus by the Father and was belonging to the Father before given, John 27:6 KJV

Note that v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of Jesus' sheep. And note that v.28 is a clear statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

If there is disagreement, please show from the verse that it ISN'T about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

And we see clearly that The twelve belonged to Jesus and had the Spirit of the Father speaking in them. Matthew 10

Neither of which proves or even indicates that Judas ever believed.

When Peter made his statement 'for the group' in John 6 about Jesus being the Son of God, Jesus had to correct him in v.70-71.

Jesus said that they were of his household and as their master (Jesus)

They also had the peace of God to give they could have no peace to give unless they were in it.

And as I keep showing you, Jesus called unto him “HIS” twelve. The stress I show is on the “his” part. They did not belong to the devil any of them at that time.

Jesus also sent them to the LOST sheep.

Let's be clear; He sent them as sheep to wolves.

Showing strongly that they were FOUND and saved sheep he sent them as sheep among wolves. They were not wolves (Judas included at this time)

Showing nothing about what you're claiming.

We read in scripture

Psalm 100 - 3. Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.”

his people are his sheep as we read Jesus calling his sheep , disciples, apostles and they cane to him

Do you really believe that every verse that mentions "sheep" is related to every other verse that mentions "sheep"? Is that your method of determining "context"?

Matthew 10 - 1. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease”

Great. And early in Jesus' ministry, He told Peter one of the 12 that He chose was a devil. Of course Judas belonged to the 12. Yes, they were His, and He chose a devil to do the devil's work.

You directly deny the text and say Judas was not one of “his” sheep.

I'll tell you what I directly deny. That Judas ever believed. It's clear he was NOT ever a believer.

Why in the world doesn't it occur to you that IF Judas ever believed and then lost his salvation, then Jesus was FLAT OUT WRONG in John 10:28?

Why are you so comfortable with that? Why do you keep pushing an idea that makes your Lord and mine a LiAR?

When Jesus said "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

But, if Judas ever believed, and we all know he ended up in hell, then what Jesus said certainly cannot be true. How can you not see this?

If s man belongs to Christ do you agree that they are saved.

Nope. I will NEVER support or agree to a theory that makes my Lord into a LiAR.

We also see that he gave power to all twelve including Judas . This power was to cast out devil and heal and they were affective at it and by having this power given it shows that Judas was not of Satan at that time for Satan cannot cast put Satan.

Yeah, and God gave the power of language to a donkey. Your point?

Also Jesus said they had thier names written in the book of life by being given such power.

Judas was also given this power as it shows clearly in Matthew and other places

Luke 10 - 19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

OK, let's begin with the first 2 verses in ch 10:
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

So we see that the context begins with "seventy-two OTHERS" and sent THEM 2 by 2".

Then we read this:
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

So, there it is. Clear as a bell. Careless reading led to the wrong assumption that Luke 10:19 was in reference to Judas. Yet we see from the context itself that the verse was in reference to 72 OTHERS.

Sorry.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is Jesus Christ as I have shown.

Sure, the Bible says so very clearly.

The Bible also says very clearly that whoever believes possesses eternal life. Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47. This means they HAVE it when they believe.

The Bible also says very clearly that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28.

He is the life and eternal life 1 John 1:1,2 1 John 5:20, and in 1 John 3:15 we see that the condition of the heart shows if they abide or remain in eternal life or not

There isn't ANY verse that says anything about the possibility of leaving the state of eternal life. Your imagination is creative, but not supported by Scripture.

We also read when eternal life is promised only as believers ABIDE in Christ and his word abides in them. There is a condition “if”

1 John 2 - 24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. “

Please go back to ch 1, where the word "fellowship" is mentioned only 4 times! That's the basis for the book. Therefore, to "abide in Christ" is about fellowship.

Just as no child can undo or leave the permanent relationship with the parents, neither can any child of God leave that relationship. But fellowship is dynamic, and can be lost or regained over and over.

Galatians 6 - 8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

The word "reap" is key here. It refers to what is earned. Is salvation earned? No, if grace is the means by which we are saved.

Oh, right! We ARE saved by grace. So says Eph 2:8.

So, to "reap eternal life" is a reference to eternal reward, which is MORE than just going to heaven. See 2 Tim 2:12 for just one example of what these eternal rewards will look like.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You must have a make-stuff-up religion. My Bible does not say 'believe in the work that Christ did on that cross' to receive eternal life. Yep, if you can't find what you want, just make it up.

OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you.

Let me give some advice; never become a pastor. How will you tell a mother and father whose newborn died, that their child is lost? What horrible news you would have for them.

That wouldn't be my message to them. But then, what do you know about my views anyway?

So, now you call the people who follow Jesus, 'among the most stupid'. It is the most stupid people who believe in Jesus, right?

Nope. Again, you've just tried very hard to twist what I did say in order to smear my view.

The Bible speaks of human beings as sheep. Just ask any sheep herder about the intelligence of sheep. Please don't take my word for it.

But regarding Scripture, I DO encourage you to take God's Word as truth. Instead of mocking the cross, and disrespecting Paul.

Very good. Now let's also see to whom Jesus was sent. Remember, He came to save the lost.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Bingo! Jackpot! Bullseye! He was sent to save the lost, which was the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel. So my dear friend, we do see that sheep can be lost and need to be saved.

I never said otherwise.

I also see you are an 'eternal death' universalist.

The word 'universalist' is normally applied to the idea that everyone will go to heaven. No one will go to hell. Is this just a made up term?

You mean no one from the OT was saved?

I've always been clear. Those in the OT who believed in the Messiah for salvation were saved.

I believe that is your belief, since you have failed to produce any OT passage which states how they received life.

What you believe has been shown to be wrong every time.

 

[EmSw]

OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you.

Saving faith is the internal acknowledgement of truth. Every word Jesus spoke is truth, since He is Truth Itself. This comes from the heart and not a verbal assent.

That wouldn't be my message to them. But then, what do you know about my views anyway?

So, if man was born lost, as you say, you would lie to the parents of a deceased newborn, and tell them their baby was in heaven? You wouldn't want them to know the truth you believe?

Nope. Again, you've just tried very hard to twist what I did say in order to smear my view.

The Bible speaks of human beings as sheep. Just ask any sheep herder about the intelligence of sheep. Please don't take my word for it.

So, is it the 'stupidity' of sheep (man) which saves him?

But regarding Scripture, I DO encourage you to take God's Word as truth. Instead of mocking the cross, and disrespecting Paul.

I do take His word as truth, such as, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' I don't look for excuses to believe it is otherwise than what He said.

I never said otherwise.

So, the rubber hits the road here. Do you agree that a sheep can be lost and need salvation? I'm going to copy what I wrote earlier.

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Jesus came to save that which was lost (condemned, dead). He was sent to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel. Do you now believe His sheep can be lost and in need of salvation?

The word 'universalist' is normally applied to the idea that everyone will go to heaven. No one will go to hell. Is this just a made up term?

Okay, you are a reverse universalist. Do that make you feel better? If everyone is born lost, then that's the only reasonable thing to believe.

I've always been clear. Those in the OT who believed in the Messiah for salvation were saved.

What you believe has been shown to be wrong every time.

I'm trying to show you that your belief is wrong. But you won't even look for yourself to see this wasn't so. NOWHERE will you find in the OT anyone believing in the Messiah for salvation.

Now that's funny. How am I wrong, when you can't show any passage in the OT to prove such a thing? Are you still looking for that OT passage which says they believed in the Messiah to be saved?

I showed you from the Bible, that sheep can be lost and need salvation. I'm still waiting for you to show me from the OT, they believed in the Messiah for salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

When Jesus said "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

No believer will perish as long as they abide in Christ through faith.

The scriptures teaches that we are kept by the power of God, yes we agree, but only through faith

1 Peter 1:5
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith..."

So if we do not abide in Christ through faith and have an evil heart of unbelief we are not kept and will perish, as Jesus says in John 15 when speaking about abiding and not abiding (through faith) .

But, if Judas ever believed, and we all know he ended up in hell, then what Jesus said certainly cannot be true. How can you not see this?

How can you not see this.

Judas "FELL by transgression" (Acts 1)

He was with God and a sheep and sent one, an apostle, and saved then he fell away. He did not continue to abide in Christ through faith. What Jesus said is true. As we abide in him we will never perish. As I showed you in 1 John John shows the way we have the etrnal life as we abide.

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If [conditional word here] that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you,[he doesn't say this will remain in you no matter what and you are OSAS] ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.[if a person does not continue in the Son and confess him is he saved? According to John if any deny the Son they have not the father] 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.[so again there is a condition here and that of abiding in Christ and he and his word abiding in us, then we have the promise of eternal life. Of we abide not we do not have such a promise. Otherwise Johns words do not make sense here. If we did not have to abide or let the word abide in us and we still had eternal life, why say the promise is only if we we let that remain in us will we continue in the Son and the Father and have the promise of eternal life. You try hard to escape this clarity and try to make fellowship, not connected to the eternal life here and the condition of abiding.]"( 1 John 2:24,25 KJV)

Here we see clearly that believers must let Christ abide in them and His word. If they do then and only then shall they continue in the Father and the Son. This continuing in the Father and Son is the salvation, not simply fellowship. And by the way fellowship with the father and the Son is part of the salvation. if we are not abiding in Christ r walking in the light we do no have the salvation or fellowship with God. Fellowship meaning partnership, participation and sharer with. No believer who abides not in Christ and his word or does not let the word abide in them can be said to be sharing with Christ in anything, or participating with Christ in the light. For he is in darkness.

OK, let's begin with the first 2 verses in ch 10:
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

So we see that the context begins with "seventy-two OTHERS" and sent THEM 2 by 2".

Then we read this:
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

So, there it is. Clear as a bell. Careless reading led to the wrong assumption that Luke 10:19 was in reference to Judas. Yet we see from the context itself that the verse was in reference to 72 OTHERS.

Sorry.

No, Jesus mentions to all about giving power over the enemy. The issue is giving them power and and that they by having such power given should be rejoicing because their names are written in heaven. This would include the apostles also who were given this power over the enemy as we see in various places along with Matthew 10.

Just the fact that they were given this power over the enemy by Jesus (the 12 and the 70) shows that they had their names written in heaven, not even the fact of any of them casting out devils yet.

Luke 10 - 19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Here we read in verse 1

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come."(Luke 10:1 KJV)

Notice that Jesus appointed seventy ALSO (with the 12 apostles is the context). So what applied to the 70 also applied to the apostles, and perhaps even more so.

The issue is that he gave them power to tread on serpents and over all the power of the enemy. In Matthew 10 We read that Jesus gave all 12 power to cast out devils. This would mean that by being given that power and authority over the enemy they were walking with God and they had the devils subject to them and their names were written in heaven. This applies to the apostles also. For in Psalms 69 we read of Judas in context with Acts 1 being blotted out of the book of life and no longer written with the righteous.

We also read in Luke 10 that Jesus said the same type of things to the 70 ALSO that he said to the 12.

This is clear that they were all able to obtain part of this ministry. We read in Acts 1 that Judas also was able to obtain part of the ministry as well as the others. So we can say of the 70 that they had the same ministry in this as the 12 and that all were able to do the same. Jesus said they could do this when speaking to the 12 in Matthew, they can cast out devils. That would mean that they had power over all the enemy and so had their names written in heaven .

notice right after he encouraged the 70, that the disciples were right thee with them and Jesus turned to them and spoke privately to them

"23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"

Notice that he said their eyes had seen these things speaking of the spirits being subject unto them. This was also for the 12 and the 70.

Clearly they were among the 70 and casting out devils also and so the names written in heaven would apply to them also.