Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[faroukfarouk]

Judas was never a true believer (John 17.12), as the son of perdition. He never participated in the promise of John 10.28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

From that parable and the example of the angels that sinned and did not abide in the truth we can see that a person can be a dead and lost son, or a alive and found son. Yet still be considered a son in either state.

OK, this is getting no where. I've explained my view of the parable, and you don't believe it. You still want him dead, but whether just physically or spiritually, is not clear.

But Jesus was giving a human story, so his spiritual condition was not the point. And he sure didn't die physically.

What can't be argued against is that he himself severed fellowship with his father by asking for his inheritance while the father was still alive. At that time period, every Jewish father would have taken that request as tantamount to saying, "I wish you were dead (so I could get my inheritance), but give it to me anyway". Real sweet kid, that.

We see in Acts 17 an interesting verse where Paul says, speaking of the UNKNOWN God and how God can reach all men in the entire world, he says

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."(Acts 17:26-31 KJV.

All the pretty colors and font sizes makes for easy reading. Thanks.

Notice here that God offers salvation unto all men and Paul says that all men are his offspring whether they are saved or not.

Well, I've been clear as to what I mean by "child of God", and I stand by Scripture:
John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

So when I say "child/children of God" this is what I mean specifically.

That doesn't mean all men are saved.

I'm not a universalist, by a long shot.

The parable is spiritual and Jesus spoke this way to hide things from some and only those with eyes and ears to see and hear could understand.

I'm sure you are aware that even Jesus' own disciples did not understand His parables, and He had to mansplain them to His disciples.

Jesus said,

Matthew 13:35
"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


"15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."(Matthew 15:15-20 KJV) (Jesus shows the spiritual meaning as he did many times)

Thanks for an example of Peter asking what a parable meant. Which is what I was saying.

This is not accurate, I showed that salvation in Christ and fellowship or sharing with and partnership and participation with Christ is all part of the same salvation. There are too many verses to repeat, go back and re read all my points on this.

No, you showed nothing of the sort. You did make a claim, but that was it.

If your foundational view is faulty the entire building will come down. And every thing you try to say and build up from that foundation will be shaky.

From all the colorful paragraphs you gave, it's clear that it's your foundational view of spirituality that is shaky.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
You're really stuck on this. But none of this SAYS Judas was saved. One is forced to make a huge assumption.

Lets put it this way.

1.Did Jesus call all twelve his sheep and send them to the lost sheep?

2. Did Jesus call unto himself "HIS" twelve disciples?

Yes or no to both questions.

Everyone is born lost, and in need of saving. I forget the specific verse, but I recall that He actually something like "I send you as sheep to the "lost sheep of Israel".

if you say yes, then Jesus says he gives eternal life to his sheep. And if he called "HIS" twelve disciples they were not the devils disciples , any of them at that time.

Are you not aware that Jesus addressed Peter as "Satan"?

If you say no, then you simply deny the text and run off to other places to try and make sense of it. As you have been doing all through this post.

It seems you're the one running from passage to passage to try to make a point.

Let's start with this simple question.

Yes

or

No

to questions 1 and 2.

I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

???

I am referring to Matthew 10 KJV

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

???

I am referring to Matthew 10 KJV

Here is the verse I think you are referring to:
16 - “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

This is a comparative statement. Not a statement of fact, and certainly NOT a statement about believers. Since this all you've got, you've got no argument.

Her certainly didn't say the 12 were His sheep. And they were going to those who were not of His sheep, like Jesus used the phrase in John 10.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas was never a true believer (John 17.12), as the son of perdition. He never participated in the promise of John 10.28.

Re read my original post and answer Matthew 10as I quoted. This was at the beginning of Judas ministry not later near the end as we see he betrayed Jesus with a kiss. In John 17:12 is only in context with vs 6 where Jesus refers to all the twelve belonging to the Fsther before they were given to him. This is obvious when in Matthew 10 Jesus called unto him his twelve apostles and gave all twelve power to cast out devils etc and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep (Judas included)

Don’t avoid Matthew 10

 

[faroukfarouk]

Re read my original post and answer Matthew 10as I quoted. This was at the beginning of Judas ministry not later near the end as we see he betrayed Jesus with a kiss. In John 17:12 is only in context with vs 6 where Jesus refers to all the twelve belonging to the Fsther before they were given to him. This is obvious when in Matthew 10 Jesus called unto him his twelve apostles and gave all twelve power to cast out devils etc and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep (Judas included)

Don’t avoid Matthew 10

Judas never participated in the promise of John 10.28:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

Here is the verse I think you are referring to:
16 - “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

This is a comparative statement. Not a statement of fact, and certainly NOT a statement about believers. Since this all you've got, you've got no argument.

Her certainly didn't say the 12 were His sheep. And they were going to those who were not of His sheep, like Jesus used the phrase in John 10.

So a disciple of Jesus can be lost. A disciple, like a sheep, is one who follows Jesus.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas never participated in the promise of John 10.28:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Judas was called a sheep of Jesus and sent and ordained by Jesus to the lost sheep. Read also Acts 1 Judas had part of the ministry and obtained that part. He fell by transgression. His bishopprick another took.

Clearly Judas was a sheep and so therefore had eternal life (Jesus Christ) abiding in him for a time. Then he departed from the living God and fell

I already showed clearly that eternal life can be in a person as they abide and no longer remaining in them if they abide not 1 John 3:15 etc etc etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

Here is the verse I think you are referring to:
16 - “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

This is a comparative statement. Not a statement of fact, and certainly NOT a statement about believers. Since this all you've got, you've got no argument.

Her certainly didn't say the 12 were His sheep. And they were going to those who were not of His sheep, like Jesus used the phrase in John 10.

Here is the clarity of who Jesus sent forth , and read it honestly and see clearly that Jesus referred to all twelve in that chapter. Never once do we even get the hint that he was not speaking to all twelve (Judas included) to say he was not speaking to Judas is to wrest scripture to your own destruction as 2 Peter speaks of. This is serious, consider again

I am beginning to wonder if no matter what clear text you are shown you will not believe them. It seems like you are saying "I believe what I believe and i will never change, don't bother me with the FACTS"

Here is the text and remember this was at the BEGINNING of Judas ministry, not much later as we read in John and at the supper and when he betrayed the trust he had in the garden.]

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, [JUDAS INCLUDED, can you say these TWELVE did not have JUDAS included in them? let all who read on see the answer, can you say that they twelve were not Jesus's even though it says he called unto him HIS twelve?]

"...he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, [can you say that he did not give all twelve power to cast out devils. The context and grammar is so obviously all twelve. Nowhere here does Jesus not refer to all TWELVE JUDAS INCLUDED and he gave them power to cast out devils. This shows that Judas was not always a devil as some try to falsely say]

"...and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles [notice Jesus is STILL talking about all twelve, can you say he is not? The clarity is so glaring. I know that if you agree to this the entire OSAS doctrine is shattered, but let it crumble, and follow the truth from scripture.] are these; ...and Judas Iscariot...[agian can you say that the twelve referred to here as apostles did not have JUDAS INCLUDED? This shows clearly that the twelve are still discussed and in context and this is refering to all of them]

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, [again Judas included. Can you say he did not sent forth the twelve only eleven? . Judas was clearly from the text included here and sent forth and in another place it says he was ordained,]...

"...6 But go rather to the lost sheep [all twelve were sent forth to the lost sheep, showing that they were not lost sheep but saved, clearly in context Jesus sent forth the twelve, not eleven and one devil as some try to wrest the scripture]of the house of Israel.

"...13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it:[They were in the peace of God, (Judas included), can you say they weren't and that Jesus is only referring to the eleven? Jesus sent forth twelve (Judas included) but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

"...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep [we already saw in verse 5 that all twelve were SENT FORTH. Here he directly calls them sheep, sent to the lost sheep. How clear can it be??? Can you say that Jesus did not sent all twelve forth as sheep to the lost sheep. Can you say that the sheep jesus sent were not saved ? Can you say that the lost sheep does not refer to the lost?] in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

"...19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."[again spoken to the twelve Judas included as clearly as the text says. So Judas also would have had the Spirit of the father speaking in him. Can you say this is not to all twelve, and if so show me from the text that this is not the case.]


'

 

[LoveofTruth]

I scanned the words "My sheep" in 3 translations and got nothing from the gospels, except in John 10, which is not the book you are referring to.

Luke 15:6 KJV
And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Question: can a believer grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and STILL be in fellowship?

Question: can a believer be filled with the Spirit and walk by His means and be OUT of fellowship?

"10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."(Isaiah 63:10 KJV)

"chapter 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all....chapter 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."(Acts 5:3-5 KJV)

after Hebrews 3:12 and on we read

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."(Hebrews 4:1 KJV)

14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him."(1 Sammuel 16:14 KJV)

"11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."(Psalms 51:11 KJV)

and

"11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"(Romans 4:11 KJV)

"25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas never participated in the promise of John 10.28:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

God doesn't leave , but we can. If any man deny him he will be denied also as Jesus said.

And yes we already saw that Judas was a sheep in Matthew 10 and so he had eternal life ( Jesus Christ ) abiding in him for a time, then he fell by transgression. How could a person "fall by transgression if they were always fallen?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So a disciple of Jesus can be lost. A disciple, like a sheep, is one who follows Jesus.

Sure, Judas followed Jesus. To steal from the purse, and to betray Him. So, yes, a disicple can be an unbeliever, just as the Bible very clearly says.

In John 6, in a discussion of disciples:
John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

I always believe what the Bible says. There's never a reason not to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judas was called a sheep of Jesus and sent and ordained by Jesus to the lost sheep.

No, he wasn't. The whole group were compared "as sheep" to go to "wolves".

Clearly Judas was a sheep and so therefore had eternal life (Jesus Christ) abiding in him for a time. Then he departed from the living God and fell

Clearly, he wasn't a believer. As John 6:64 indicates: Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

When Jesus asked His 12 whether they would leave (like so many of other disciples), Peter thought he was speaking for the whole group when he said:
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?”Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

So Jesus responded by correcting Peter's erroneous idea:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, in ch 6, which is waaaaay before the Last Supper, Jesus called Judas a devil.

I already showed clearly that eternal life can be in a person as they abide and no longer remaining in them if they abide not 1 John 3:15 etc etc etc.

You have NOT shown that at all.

The only condition for having eternal life is to believe in Christ for it. And once given eternal life, the recipient cannot perish, as Jesus clearly stated in John 10:28.

Your claim is in direct contradiction of what Jesus said.

 

[EmSw]

Sure, Judas followed Jesus. To steal from the purse, and to betray Him. So, yes, a disicple can be an unbeliever, just as the Bible very clearly says.

In John 6, in a discussion of disciples:
John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

I always believe what the Bible says. There's never a reason not to.

Keep reading in John 6.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also WE have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Did you notice the twelve had come to believe? In verses 70 and 71, Jesus did not say anything about Judas not believing, but rather, that he (Judas) would betray Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the clarity of who Jesus sent forth , and read it honestly and see clearly that Jesus referred to all twelve in that chapter. Never once do we even get the hint that he was not speaking to all twelve (Judas included) to say he was not speaking to Judas is to wrest scripture to your own destruction as 2 Peter speaks of. This is serious, consider again

I am beginning to wonder if no matter what clear text you are shown you will not believe them. It seems like you are saying "I believe what I believe and i will never change, don't bother me with the FACTS"

Here is the text and remember this was at the BEGINNING of Judas ministry, not much later as we read in John and at the supper and when he betrayed the trust he had in the garden.]

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, [JUDAS INCLUDED, can you say these TWELVE did not have JUDAS included in them? let all who read on see the answer, can you say that they twelve were not Jesus's even though it says he called unto him HIS twelve?]

"...he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, [can you say that he did not give all twelve power to cast out devils. The context and grammar is so obviously all twelve. Nowhere here does Jesus not refer to all TWELVE JUDAS INCLUDED and he gave them power to cast out devils. This shows that Judas was not always a devil as some try to falsely say]

"...and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles [notice Jesus is STILL talking about all twelve, can you say he is not? The clarity is so glaring. I know that if you agree to this the entire OSAS doctrine is shattered, but let it crumble, and follow the truth from scripture.] are these; ...and Judas Iscariot...[agian can you say that the twelve referred to here as apostles did not have JUDAS INCLUDED? This shows clearly that the twelve are still discussed and in context and this is refering to all of them]

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, [again Judas included. Can you say he did not sent forth the twelve only eleven? . Judas was clearly from the text included here and sent forth and in another place it says he was ordained,]...

"...6 But go rather to the lost sheep [all twelve were sent forth to the lost sheep, showing that they were not lost sheep but saved, clearly in context Jesus sent forth the twelve, not eleven and one devil as some try to wrest the scripture]of the house of Israel.

"...13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it:[They were in the peace of God, (Judas included), can you say they weren't and that Jesus is only referring to the eleven? Jesus sent forth twelve (Judas included) but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

"...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep [we already saw in verse 5 that all twelve were SENT FORTH. Here he directly calls them sheep, sent to the lost sheep. How clear can it be??? Can you say that Jesus did not sent all twelve forth as sheep to the lost sheep. Can you say that the sheep jesus sent were not saved ? Can you say that the lost sheep does not refer to the lost?] in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

"...19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."[again spoken to the twelve Judas included as clearly as the text says. So Judas also would have had the Spirit of the father speaking in him. Can you say this is not to all twelve, and if so show me from the text that this is not the case.]

None of this tells us that Judas ever believed, which you're just dying to try to prove.

Why can't the "Spirit of your Father" speak in Judas just as God spoke through a donkey in the OT? Sorry, but this boat don't float.

The key to Judas unsaved condition even from the beginning is found in the discussion of disciples in John 6 when Jesus was teaching a large crowd of disciples.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?

Then Jesus said this:
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

The result of saying this is found here:
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

So Jesus asked this of His 12 disciples:
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?”Jesus asked the Twelve.

So Peter took it upon himself to answer for the 12:
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

At this, Jesus had to correct him:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So even waaaaay back in ch 6, before the Last Supper, Jesus called Judas a devil.

So don't tell me Judas ever believed.

In fact, v.64 aligns well with Jesus' correction to Peter about Judas. In v.64, John makes the point of including those who didn't believe with the betrayer himself.

The obvious conclusion from all of this is that Judas never believed, and Jesus considered Judas a devil waaaay before Satan entered him during the Last Supper: 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

 

[EmSw]

Also, we see in John 6 what the disciples who left did not believe. It was not anything about a cross, His blood, nor His death.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

First notice in verse 64, it wasn't Judas the only one who betrayed Him. It was those disciples who walked away. Also, what was it these disciples did not believe? Verse 60 tells us - it was the hard saying Jesus gave about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They did not understand it; it offended them.

So we see, disciples who do not believe what He said and walk away as those who betray Jesus. And yes, Judas walked away from Jesus.

 

[EmSw]

None of this tells us that Judas ever believed, which you're just dying to try to prove.

Why can't the "Spirit of your Father" speak in Judas just as God spoke through a donkey in the OT? Sorry, but this boat don't float.

The key to Judas unsaved condition even from the beginning is found in the discussion of disciples in John 6 when Jesus was teaching a large crowd of disciples.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?

Then Jesus said this:
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

The result of saying this is found here:
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

So Jesus asked this of His 12 disciples:
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?”Jesus asked the Twelve.

So Peter took it upon himself to answer for the 12:
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

At this, Jesus had to correct him:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So even waaaaay back in ch 6, before the Last Supper, Jesus called Judas a devil.

So don't tell me Judas ever believed.

In fact, v.64 aligns well with Jesus' correction to Peter about Judas. In v.64, John makes the point of including those who didn't believe with the betrayer himself.

The obvious conclusion from all of this is that Judas never believed, and Jesus considered Judas a devil waaaay before Satan entered him during the Last Supper: 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

As I said, Jesus never corrected Peter by saying Judas never believed. Are you saying devils can't believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

God doesn't leave , but we can.

We can leave the faith. But we cannot leave our:
1. salvation
2. justification
3. sealing with the Holy Spirit

But if there are any verses that say we can, I will repent.

If any man deny him he will be denied also as Jesus said.

Check out the context, in which the subject is "enduring". Paul said IF we endure (in the faith obviously) we WILL reign with Christ. This is an eternal reward for enduring.

Then he gives the contrast, "but IF we deny Him, He will deny us." The obvious meaning is that the believer who doesn't endure, but denies Him will be denied reigning with Christ.

This is totally consistent with all the verses on eternal rewards, which are earned.

And yes we already saw that Judas was a sheep in Matthew 10 and so he had eternal life ( Jesus Christ ) abiding in him for a time, then he fell by transgression. How could a person "fall by transgression if they were always fallen?

If one wants to argue that Judas was saved at one point, then one MUST ARGUE that Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28.

You can't have it both ways.

I believe what Jesus said, both about Judas being a devil way back in ch 6, and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Apparently you believe just the opposite; that Judas was saved then lost, and that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.