Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Major1]

Well-said, and well-reasoned Major ! There are two different "appearances" of Christ. One on clouds with great power and glory at the time of The Rapture. The other, on a white horse with his saints at Armageddon. In the first appearing, he never touches earth. In the second he does.

I promote you to Lt. Colonel !

LOL!.......Thank you my friend!!

We agree with what the Bible teaches.

 

[Major1]

The word "parousia" is not a concept, it is a Greek word that has a meaning.




If the living cannot precede the dead how can there be a rapture? Would this not be the resurrection?





The problem for your position is that the language only speaks about a single coming.

You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe as I am able to do the very same thing.

I am sure that you have put in a lot of study time just as I have on this subject and we are equally sure of what we believe the Bible teaches.

IMO.....the Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality and this life is not all that there is. While death is the end of physical life, it is not the end of human existence. Many erroneously believe that there is one general resurrection at the end of the age, however the Bible does not teach that.
It has been my experience and understanding that the Bible teaches that there will NOT BE JUST one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation which is seen in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29.

I am sure that everyone will agree that The first great resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is documented in each of the four Gospels (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20), cited several times in Acts (Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:2, 33; 26:23), and mentioned repeatedly in the letters to the churches (Romans 1:4; Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:3).

Much is made of the importance of Christ’s resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34, which records that over five hundred people saw Him at one of His post-resurrection appearances. Christ’s resurrection is the “first fruits” or guarantee to every Christian that he will also be resurrected.

Christ’s resurrection is also the basis of the Christian’s certainty that all people who have died will one day be raised to face fair and even-handed judgment by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). The resurrection to eternal life is described as “the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5-6); the resurrection to judgment and torment is described as “the second death” (Revelation 20:6, 13-15).
When will the Resurrection take place?

Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

 

[Major1]

Excuse me I thought I was on a debate forum. You share you views, I agree or disagree and tell you why, then you respond to the points I made to refute what I said or not. Sorry I am still learning that some here can make doctrinal declarations with no challenge to what they say allowed.

Is there not just a hint of arrogance in the implication that only the pre-trib side can show someone something?

I try my best to make my points based on my understanding of the same Bible you read. I also try very hard to leave out the unnecessary jargon like if you don’t see it my way you’re calling God a liar, don’t you know those scriptures. IMHO those remarks just lift you up and put me down.

We all believe we are right here. The hard part is proving it.

Of course it is and yes you do.

I certainly did not mean for it to sound the way you took it. Please consider the fact that YOU posted several questions which challenged the accepted Bible and logical truths.

It read to me like you did not know of the specific answers found in those Scriptures so of course anyone would ask...........
"You do not know about those Scriptures".

Now as for calling God a liar.

God is not tempted to lie. No one can catch Him in a compromising position, or give Him an opportunity to make Himself appear more impressive by making up false accomplishments or attributes. He is perfect in every way, so even if His character did permit Him to lie, the potential for personal gain, which serves as many people’s motivation to lie, would not affect Him.

If that is you or me or anyone else then the statement would apply to all of us in that whatever GOD SAID is what is true and what we say that is not true makes US a liar.

But you already know that.

 

[seventysevens]

Is there not just a hint of arrogance in the implication that only the pre-trib side can show someone something?
We all believe we are right here. The hard part is proving it.

If you notice the scriptures of Matt 24 do not use the true rapture term of harpazo -the actual snatching away suddenly -as it is used in Thess because of the scene in Matthew it is about the 2nd coming of Jesus and so it is described as a "gathering" not a "snatching away" , if you are reading a newspaper and someone snatches it away from you , they have used a forceful approach without your knowledge or consent , you did not expect it to happen , you were not told in advance , as a gathering is described in a different manner . In Matt 24 the harpazo has already happened previously and Jesus has sent out his angels to gather together the elect from earth to be joined with all the other saints from all of heaven and earth , the topic is not as clearly described as salvation as it is a deeper level and considered hidden so it takes a longer look and deeper study to get the deeper meaning - sadly though the post trib camp becomes vicious in saying things like the pre trib will cause the apostasy of the church which is totally false and fictitious and does not accomplish anything but division and bitterness

 

[Archmike]

If you notice the scriptures of Matt 24 do not use the true rapture term of harpazo -the actual snatching away suddenly -as it is used in Thess because of the scene in Matthew it is about the 2nd coming of Jesus and so it is described as a "gathering" not a "snatching away" , if you are reading a newspaper and someone snatches it away from you , they have used a forceful approach without your knowledge or consent , you did not expect it to happen , you were not told in advance , as a gathering is described in a different manner . In Matt 24 the harpazo has already happened previously and Jesus has sent out his angels to gather together the elect from earth to be joined with all the other saints from all of heaven and earth , the topic is not as clearly described as salvation as it is a deeper level and considered hidden so it takes a longer look and deeper study to get the deeper meaning - sadly though the post trib camp becomes vicious in saying things like the pre trib will cause the apostasy of the church which is totally false and fictitious and does not accomplish anything but division and bitterness

The poor know The Truth inherently, that they will not be whisked-away before they have to suffer great tribulation. The Pre-Trib Theory is an "easy" theory to preach, and an "easy" belief to adhere-to, because it requires no unusual sacrifices on the part of the believer. Ministers like to preach it, because they don't get their congregations alarmed by talk of doom and gloom. and it IS tempting to believe !

The Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a soothing idea, started by Satan, and propagated by the blind and weak.... and is the lip service of the scholarly elite.....you know the type: Those that write book after book about it, and claim you have to go through them to understand the prophecies. And folks bend their "itchy ears" to hear it. They want the easy way out. Its natural.....

Poor folk....those who are use to struggle, and have lived life in the trenches, btw.....know better than they do.

 

[seventysevens]

That is only showing that you do not understand scripture at all

here is just one passage to think about

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus outright says that HE will keep them-us- from the hour of temptation when he puts the world on trial

think about that - Jesus said this after He went back to His Throne in Heaven so there is Nothing of the future He does not know about and He does know when he will return and when He will cause the hour of temptation to occur which is the same as the great tribulation time period

think about that -IF He was Only speaking to One congregation that existed 2000 years ago and all of the people who attended there are long dead a long time ago - there are none of them to be alive to " keep out from" which means to "keep out of " the great trib

If you believe that scripture is only for them - it would be like Jesus telling you that he will keep you "out from" the 70 AD destruction of the temple or keep you out from Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroys them

It can only mean that Jesus will keep His followers out from the great trib - those who are living at the time the great trib - the great temptation hour that is coming upon the world the time that people will be tempted to take the mark of the beast so they can make life easier because life will be very hard without it- it is also the time of Gods wrath on the inhabitants of earth for rejecting Christ



Chew on that awhile

The poor know The Truth inherently, that they will not be whisked-away before they have to suffer great tribulation. The Pre-Trib Theory is an "easy" theory to preach, and an "easy" belief to adhere-to, because it requires no unusual sacrifices on the part of the believer. Ministers like to preach it, because they don't get their congregations alarmed by talk of doom and gloom. and it IS tempting to believe !

The Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a soothing idea, started by Satan, and propagated by the blind and weak.... and is the lip service of the scholarly elite.....you know the type: Those that write book after book about it, and claim you have to go through them to understand the prophecies. And folks bend their "itchy ears" to hear it. They want the easy way out. Its natural.....

Poor folk....those who are use to struggle, and have lived life in the trenches, btw.....know better than they do.

 

[Major1]

If you notice the scriptures of Matt 24 do not use the true rapture term of harpazo -the actual snatching away suddenly -as it is used in Thess because of the scene in Matthew it is about the 2nd coming of Jesus and so it is described as a "gathering" not a "snatching away" , if you are reading a newspaper and someone snatches it away from you , they have used a forceful approach without your knowledge or consent , you did not expect it to happen , you were not told in advance , as a gathering is described in a different manner . In Matt 24 the harpazo has already happened previously and Jesus has sent out his angels to gather together the elect from earth to be joined with all the other saints from all of heaven and earth , the topic is not as clearly described as salvation as it is a deeper level and considered hidden so it takes a longer look and deeper study to get the deeper meaning - sadly though the post trib camp becomes vicious in saying things like the pre trib will cause the apostasy of the church which is totally false and fictitious and does not accomplish anything but division and bitterness

On top of that, Matthew is written to the JEWS. Chapter 24 - 25 do not apply to the Rapture for the reasons you posted, but also rememeber that when Matthew was written there was NO Church.

The Church Age is not in Matthew 24-25 because it is a message delivered to Israel following their rejection of Christ as their Messiah. Jesus was predicting the events of Israel’s future and those Scriptures have nothing to do witht he Rapture.

 

[Major1]

The poor know The Truth inherently, that they will not be whisked-away before they have to suffer great tribulation. The Pre-Trib Theory is an "easy" theory to preach, and an "easy" belief to adhere-to, because it requires no unusual sacrifices on the part of the believer. Ministers like to preach it, because they don't get their congregations alarmed by talk of doom and gloom. and it IS tempting to believe !

The Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a soothing idea, started by Satan, and propagated by the blind and weak.... and is the lip service of the scholarly elite.....you know the type: Those that write book after book about it, and claim you have to go through them to understand the prophecies. And folks bend their "itchy ears" to hear it. They want the easy way out. Its natural.....

Poor folk....those who are use to struggle, and have lived life in the trenches, btw.....know better than they do.

Have you thought about the pre-tribulation being soothing, or easy to preach and believe is because it is exactly the reason why it was placed in the Bible to begin with.

Have you also considered that the pre-tribulation Rapture teaching allows for ALL the Scriptures to fit together perfectly?

In the Rapture, the true Church of God is removed so they will not go through the trial that will come upon all the earth to try men's souls (they have no need to). Christ does not come back to take possession of the earth at that time. The Rapture is just another phase of the first Resurrection that began with Jesus Christ.
Proofs for the pretribulation rapture

Jesus is the body of Christ and the true Church is also the body of Christ called the Bride (the two shall become one flesh). The total membership making up the body of Christ must arise like Jesus to unite with Jesus. We must go before the Bema seat judgment to be given the crowns that will allow us to rule and reign with Jesus when we return.

If the Rapture and second coming were at the same time you would have to make this judgment and the giving of the crowns an instantaneous event in the clouds at the second coming of Jesus and the fact is that there are NO SCRIPTURES that allow that to take place!!!.

1 Thess. 4:18........
"Therefore encourage one another with these words."

 

[Archmike]

That is only showing that you do not understand scripture at all

here is just one passage to think about

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus outright says that HE will keep them-us- from the hour of temptation when he puts the world on trial

think about that - Jesus said this after He went back to His Throne in Heaven so there is Nothing of the future He does not know about and He does know when he will return and when He will cause the hour of temptation to occur which is the same as the great tribulation time period

think about that -IF He was Only speaking to One congregation that existed 2000 years ago and all of the people who attended there are long dead a long time ago - there are none of them to be alive to " keep out from" which means to "keep out of " the great trib

If you believe that scripture is only for them - it would be like Jesus telling you that he will keep you "out from" the 70 AD destruction of the temple or keep you out from Sodom and Gomorrah before he destroys them

It can only mean that Jesus will keep His followers out from the great trib - those who are living at the time the great trib - the great temptation hour that is coming upon the world



Chew on that awhile

hee, hee....Im chewing, but I've chewed this before !

The "most famous quote of all" for the pre-tribbers.....The Church of Philadelphia reference.....

Members of the Church of Philadelphia represent such a small number of believers, that to include yourself in it, would be considered ....by me....to be utter arrogance. I believe them to be the 144k "Firstfruits", taken from all of Christian history. That would leave roughly 6000 in this generation who would be the best of the best. Sorry, but to include yourself in this group, would be like declaring yourself a Medal of Honor Winner, when in reality, you never served a day in the service. Pre-Tribbers would like to not only escape the GT, but also would want to be included in this Philadelphia group.

 

[Major1]

You might as well seek to find how many people you can fit into a phone booth when you try to fit 3 harvests into whatever scripture you chose .

The Three harvests are Not a theory it IS a biblical fact of Bible - It is where the ideas of pre -mid and post comes from - but in the western world such as America prophecy is a topic that more than 90% of all churches refuse to teach anything on prophecy - the result is a multitude of people writing books and putting their own view in print as a teaching , then the readers accept their pov as fact and is gets perceived as bible teaching , some of it is fact , but depending on who the writer is their view may override facts ,

It is your own personal responsibility to take Your time to study Gods word -not mine
I provide the direction you can take to learn but the learning process and the time it takes is 1000% yours and each persons own individual personal responsibility , no different than obtaining your own salvation, no ones responsibility but your own .

Simple illustration on how - Say your computer is running real slow and you want it running smooth and you not a computer tech ,
First google ' what causes computer to run so slow' , -- you will get likely thousand of weblinks on this problem

Second make a list of the things you find that causes a computer to run slow from your research

Third compare your list to your computer and perform the tasks you have on your list
You see it takes time and initiative but you will find answers IF YOU REALLY WANT THEM!


The best way to understand the truth is to STUDY the truth of the 3 Harvests of God
The Barley Harvest
The Wheat Harvest
The Grapes harvest
The Harvest of the 4 corners of the field
Each of these have specific scriptural teachings of the Harvest of souls
Due to the depth of it I will just tell you to study them

The only time I will teach is face to face - not on the internet - It takes time and doing it face to face I will know if a person truly wants to learn or if they only want to debate or be combative , I won't waste my time to teach people who don't want to put forth their own time to research and study

Well said and I agree! I have studied the 3 harvests as well.

I want to be carful here in my comment as some people live just to "report" what others say, having said that I can assure you that there are more people on Christian web sites for the purpose or "arguing their agenda" than there are those who have a desire to grasp Bible teachings.

 

[Major1]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
(See the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31.)
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—

.

My dear friend, if the Philadelphia Church is kept from the hour (time) of the tribulation then how can she possibly go through part or all of it? She is also given crowns. The crowns are given at the judgment seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture but before the second coming.

 

[Major1]

hee, hee....Im chewing, but I've chewed this before !

The "most famous quote of all" for the pre-tribbers.....The Church of Philadelphia reference.....

Members of the Church of Philadelphia represent such a small number of believers, that to include yourself in it, would be considered ....by me....to be utter arrogance. I believe them to be the 144k "Firstfruits", taken from all of Christian history. That would leave roughly 6000 in this generation who would be the best of the best. Sorry, but to include yourself in this group, would be like declaring yourself a Medal of Honor Winner, when in reality, you never served a day in the service. Pre-Tribbers would like to not only escape the GT, but also would want to be included in this Philadelphia group.

Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

The Philadelphia Church is an AGE or a TIME frame. Why would anyone be challenged on believing that they think they are in that TIME frame.

Then on top of that there are a lot of people who have worked and taught and preached the gospel and in fact are SAVED and IMO we have every ability to tell others why we are what we are. In fact we will receive Medals of Honor!!!!!!!!

1 - CROWN 1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - CROWN 2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - CROWN 3 - CROWN OF LIFE— Rev 2:10
4 - CROWN 4 - CROWN OF GLORY— 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - CROWN 5 - CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WIN 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

Now for your thinking on the 144K.
They are not Christians at all my friend!
They are not 1st Fruits.
They are in fact 144,000 Jewish, Male, Virgins.

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about with only 6000 being in the Philidelphia church. If you are suggesting that only 6000 of the Philadelphia church will be Raptured, YOU are very, very mistaken.

It is my belief that the true Christian's of our generation make up the Philadelphian church age. When the true believers (Philadelphian church age)of ALL denominations are raptured, the Lacodicean church will then begin on earth, spewed out by God to endure the Tribulation Period. This church claims it has need of nothing; it is self-satisfied and self-complacent. Boasting of wealth and methods of organization, it fails to realize the absence of spiritual life in its midst. It is organizational religion in its purest form. Christ informs them that they are utterly insensitive to their condition.

 

[seventysevens]

Again you show you have no real understanding of scripture and you are revealing your
arrogance First the 144,000 are listed as Israel tribes not the church!
Saying they are Christians is only those who wish to force scripture to mean something other than what it says !
The Church of Philadelphia represents Christians that have keep Jesus word as the other churches didn't - It shows that those churches represent what the end time church would be like compared to the church of that time back in 95 AD
But also your foolish claims about the 144000 and medal of honor , not serving a day of service is lunacy and only 6000 makes no sense at all ,
your opinion shows that while chewing - you choked and need a doctor

hee, hee....Im chewing, but I've chewed this before !

The "most famous quote of all" for the pre-tribbers.....The Church of Philadelphia reference.....

Members of the Church of Philadelphia represent such a small number of believers, that to include yourself in it, would be considered ....by me....to be utter arrogance. I believe them to be the 144k "Firstfruits", taken from all of Christian history. That would leave roughly 6000 in this generation who would be the best of the best. Sorry, but to include yourself in this group, would be like declaring yourself a Medal of Honor Winner, when in reality, you never served a day in the service. Pre-Tribbers would like to not only escape the GT, but also would want to be included in this Philadelphia group.

 

[BABerean2]

My dear friend, if the Philadelphia Church is kept from the hour (time) of the tribulation then how can she possibly go through part or all of it? She is also given crowns. The crowns are given at the judgment seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture but before the second coming.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

.

 

[seventysevens]

Those verses are Not about the GT

Everyone will go through life facing tribulation of types , could be loss of a job and financial hardship , business failing or bankruptcy , many many types , but these scriptures are Not at all in reference to the Great Trib spoken of by Jesus when he says that that time of trial will be the most severe time on earth that mankind will ever experience , being so bad that if He Jesus did not return to end it that no flesh would survive - which means there would be no life of any kind of humans or animals or fish or birds as they would all perish - we have not reached that point in time -obviously , but also Jesus will return at that time - That time will be so hard to survive without taking the mark of the beast that many people will give up and give in to taking that mark just so they can buy food for their families -

That is NOT what Jesus has planned for His Bride that He loves so much that he died on the cross and shed His blood for them

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

.

 

[Dig4truth]

You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe as I am able to do the very same thing.

I am sure that you have put in a lot of study time just as I have on this subject and we are equally sure of what we believe the Bible teaches.

IMO.....the Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality and this life is not all that there is. While death is the end of physical life, it is not the end of human existence. Many erroneously believe that there is one general resurrection at the end of the age, however the Bible does not teach that.
It has been my experience and understanding that the Bible teaches that there will NOT BE JUST one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation which is seen in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29.

I am sure that everyone will agree that The first great resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is documented in each of the four Gospels (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20), cited several times in Acts (Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:2, 33; 26:23), and mentioned repeatedly in the letters to the churches (Romans 1:4; Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:3).

Much is made of the importance of Christ’s resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34, which records that over five hundred people saw Him at one of His post-resurrection appearances. Christ’s resurrection is the “first fruits” or guarantee to every Christian that he will also be resurrected.

Christ’s resurrection is also the basis of the Christian’s certainty that all people who have died will one day be raised to face fair and even-handed judgment by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). The resurrection to eternal life is described as “the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5-6); the resurrection to judgment and torment is described as “the second death” (Revelation 20:6, 13-15).
When will the Resurrection take place?

Now, if there is just ONE GENERAL Resurrection as what you are proposing, then why does the Bible specifically say "THE FIRST RESURRECTION' and then later specifically say....."THE SECOND DEATH".

I am not proposing only one resurrection because one is a resurrection to life and the other a ressurection to judgment and death (2nd death). Understanding the other person's position is key to a good debate.

 

[BABerean2]

That is NOT what Jesus has planned for His Bride that He loves so much that he died on the cross and shed His blood for them

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.

.

 

[seventysevens]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.

.

And we celebrate Jesus resurrection , and we celebrate Jesus birth and today is Wednesday and tomorrow is Thursday and the day after that is Friday

 

[Postvieww]

YOU posted several questions which challenged the accepted Bible and logical truths.

It seems the pre-trib rapture position is not the leading candidate for “the accepted Bible and logical truths”. These polls do not speak to the validity of either point of view, just the accuracy of your claim.

Again we all believe we are right.


Large Number of Pastors Don't Believe in the Rapture


Only One-Third of Pastors Share 'Left Behind' End Times Theology


Poll: Only a Third of Protestant Pastors Believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture

 

[Major1]

It seems the pre-trib rapture position is not the leading candidate for “the accepted Bible and logical truths”. These polls do not speak to the validity of either point of view, just the accuracy of your claim.

Again we all believe we are right.


Large Number of Pastors Don't Believe in the Rapture


Only One-Third of Pastors Share 'Left Behind' End Times Theology


Poll: Only a Third of Protestant Pastors Believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture

Romans 14:5.........
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."