Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Major1]

To find out what they imply maybe we should just look at all of the verses that talk about His coming and see if we can find just one that says He comes resurrects the saints and takes them back to heaven. I’m still looking when you find one please point it out.

The problem here is many see what they want to see or need to see in order to support the doctrine.

Matthew 24 has a lot about his coming but nothing about His “going” back to heaven.

Matthew 25:64 speaks of His coming but not His going.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 talks of His coming and what He does but nothing about His going.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 really doesn’t mention His coming but from other passages we know this is what happens when He comes, no mention of His going.

1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 His coming no going. Tells us we shall ever be with the Lord but no where says He goes back to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 His coming no going

James 5:7-8 His coming no going

1 John 2:28 His coming no going

Zechariah 14 has a lot to say about what happens when He comes but is silent about any return to heaven.

Could it just be when He comes He stays?

The point here is the idea Jesus comes and takes the resurrected and glorified church back to heaven for 7 years is a fantasy not found in scripture.

The Bible sees the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18)
and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

1. Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air
   Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth
   
   
   
2. Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged
   Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem
   
   
   
3. Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies
   Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies
   
   
   
4. Rapture — believers go to heaven
   Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth
   
   
   
5. Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin
   Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established
   
   
   
6. Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath
   Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath
   
   
   
7. Rapture — no signs precede it
   Second Coming — many signs precede it
   
   
   
8. Rapture — revealed only in New Testament
   Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments
   
   
   
9. Rapture — deals with only the saved
   Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved
   
   
   
10. Rapture — Satan remains free
    Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss

Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario.
http://christinprophecy.org/articles/why-i-believe-in-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/

 

[Major1]

Good points.
I did a study a while back and what I found was that in every instance where Yeshua's coming is spoken of it is in the singular sense.


"I have come to the conclusion that all the passages using the word parousía, point to a single event yet to come at the end of the age. Each time it appears in the Greek New Testament the Definite Article appears with it, making it theparousía. This lends emphasis that there will be one grand parousía of the Lord Jesus Christ."

The Parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ

I John 2:28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. (parousia)

The Parousia is a theological concept that comes from the Greek word parousia meaning "coming" or "presence." In the study of Bible prophecy, the term Parousia is used in reference to the Coming of Jesus Christ.

In some cases, the Parousia is used in reference to the time when Jesus Christ comes to rapture His people to be with Him. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says, "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." At any moment, the dead in Christ will rise followed by those alive in Christ to be with Christ forever (also 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 5:23; James 5:8; 1 John 2:28).

In other cases, the Parousia refers to Christ's return at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks at length about this event. Jesus will return in victory and defeat His enemies at Armageddon, beginning His reign upon David's throne in Jerusalem with His people.

It is important to understand that the Bible speaks of two different "comings" of Jesus Christ. Some believe Christ will return only once, at the end of the seven-year tribulation. However, a study of the passages that refer to Christ's coming note many differences between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. Most notably, at the rapture Jesus will come on the clouds to take His people to be with Him. This will take place at any moment and before the seven-year tribulation period. At His second coming, Jesus will come down to earth with His people to defeat His enemies and begin His reign in Jerusalem for the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-7). The following (adapted from www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf ) highlights many of these key differences:

RAPTURE
• Translation of all believers
• Translated saints go to heaven
• Earth not judged
• Imminent, any-moment
• Not in the Old Testament
• Believers only
• Before the day of wrath
• No reference to Satan
• Jesus comes in the air
• Jesus claims His bride (the Church)
• Only His own see Jesus
• Tribulation begins

SECOND COMING
• No translation
• Previously translated saints return to earth
• Earth judged and righteousness established
• Follows definite predicted signs, including tribulation
• Predicted often in Old Testament
• All people impacted
• Concluding the day of wrath
• Satan bound
• Jesus comes to the earth
• Jesus comes with His bride (the Church)
• Every eye will see Jesus
• Millennial Kingdom begins

The Parousia is an essential part of the study of biblical prophecy. In discussing the Parousia one should be careful to define to which coming of Christ he or she is referring and to note many of the important, significant differences between the rapture and return of Christ.
The Parousia - What is it?

 

[Postvieww]

So where is the scriptural proof that Jesus said that he is not taking people to heaven ?

I didn’t say He said He was not taking people to heaven, I said scripture DOES NOT say that He was.

There is none at all as that is just mere assumption.

There is no scripture that says He will.

Refusing to acknowledge all three harvests and forcing it into a onetime event is not supported by scripture as scripture clearly teaches 3 harvests

Please show us how to fit 3 harvests into this passage?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Or this passage?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Or John 6:39,40,44 & 54?

Below is what I found on your 3 harvests theory. If you can’t/won't explain it or apply it to this discussion why should anyone here consider it as a legitimate argument? How is teaching truth a waste of time? If you believe it to be truth it is your obligation to share it.

You will not accept the truth !
the best way to understand the truth is to STUDY the truth of the 3 Harvests of God
The Barley Harvest
The Wheat Harvest
The Grapes harvest
The Harvest of the 4 corners of the field
Each of these have specific scriptural teachings of the Harvest of souls
Due to the depth of it I will just tell you to study them
I don't waste time on forums with teaching those who refuse to acknowledge truth

 

[iamlamad]

No scriptural rebuttal to the substance of my post?

We have been over all the scriptures before: i see them one way, you see them a different way.

The great crowd, too large to number, seen in heaven in Revelation, was seen by John before he began the 70th week. That was God's message to John and then to us. In your theory John would have seen that great crowd in Rev. 20.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus has not been building temporary (7 years) housing for the last 2000 years. The mansions He has for us are for eternity described in Revelation 21, brought down FROM heaven to the new earth.

For those that believe God has made an escape plan, they will get to see their mansions over a thousand years sooner than you will.
The way you read John 14 is a whole lot different than the way I read it.

 

[iamlamad]

The Parousia is a theological concept that comes from the Greek word parousia meaning "coming" or "presence." In the study of Bible prophecy, the term Parousia is used in reference to the Coming of Jesus Christ.

In some cases, the Parousia is used in reference to the time when Jesus Christ comes to rapture His people to be with Him. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says, "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." At any moment, the dead in Christ will rise followed by those alive in Christ to be with Christ forever (also 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 5:23; James 5:8; 1 John 2:28).

In other cases, the Parousia refers to Christ's return at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks at length about this event. Jesus will return in victory and defeat His enemies at Armageddon, beginning His reign upon David's throne in Jerusalem with His people.

It is important to understand that the Bible speaks of two different "comings" of Jesus Christ. Some believe Christ will return only once, at the end of the seven-year tribulation. However, a study of the passages that refer to Christ's coming note many differences between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. Most notably, at the rapture Jesus will come on the clouds to take His people to be with Him. This will take place at any moment and before the seven-year tribulation period. At His second coming, Jesus will come down to earth with His people to defeat His enemies and begin His reign in Jerusalem for the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-7). The following (adapted from www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf ) highlights many of these key differences:

RAPTURE
• Translation of all believers
• Translated saints go to heaven
• Earth not judged
• Imminent, any-moment
• Not in the Old Testament
• Believers only
• Before the day of wrath
• No reference to Satan
• Jesus comes in the air
• Jesus claims His bride (the Church)
• Only His own see Jesus
• Tribulation begins

SECOND COMING
• No translation
• Previously translated saints return to earth
• Earth judged and righteousness established
• Follows definite predicted signs, including tribulation
• Predicted often in Old Testament
• All people impacted
• Concluding the day of wrath
• Satan bound
• Jesus comes to the earth
• Jesus comes with His bride (the Church)
• Every eye will see Jesus
• Millennial Kingdom begins

The Parousia is an essential part of the study of biblical prophecy. In discussing the Parousia one should be careful to define to which coming of Christ he or she is referring and to note many of the important, significant differences between the rapture and return of Christ.
The Parousia - What is it?

Postvieww, it would do you well to camp out on this post for a while! It is TRUTH.

 

[Postvieww]

The way you read John 14 is a whole lot different than the way I read it.

Agreed!

 

[Postvieww]

Postvieww, it would do you well to camp out on this post for a while! It is TRUTH.

I was camped out there for over 30 years!

 

[Postvieww]

The great crowd, too large to number, seen in heaven in Revelation, was seen by John before he began the 70th week.

You believe they are resurrected glorified saints I believe they are the souls of dead saints not yet resurrected and glorified. I see no conflict here. As you know we view the chronology of Revelation just a little differently.

 

[Postvieww]

Major1 said:

The Bible sees the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18)

and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

As shown in my post, Matt 24 harmonizes quiet nicely with 1 Thess 4. Different facts emphasized do not necessarily prove a different event.


The superscription on the cross is described differently in the different gospels yet there was only one cross.

1. Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air

Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth

What passage in Zechariah 14 says Christ meets believers on the earth?

Do not those same saints that sleep in Jesus , 1 Thess 4:14 come with Him ? 1 Thess 3:12 and Zechariah 14:5



2. Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged

Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem

Mount of Olives is not mentioned in resurrection passages.

3. Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies

Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies

What “second coming” passage even addresses bodies ?

4. Rapture — believers go to heaven

What resurrection passage says believers go to heaven?

Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth

What passage mentions those that come with Him are glorified? In fact 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says the opposite.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is just before they are united with their glorified (resurrected) bodies.

5. Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin

What passage says after the resurrection the world is unjudged and living in sin?

Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established

2 Thess 2:1 & 2 Thess 2:8 has our gathering and the destruction of “that wicked” both at His coming.

6. Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath

What passage says the church is removed to avoid the wrath of God? God can and has all through scripture protected many from His judgements while the wicked were left to endure them.

Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath

Would that be the wrath of satan not the wrath of God? Verses please?

7. Rapture — no signs precede it

2 Thess. 2:1-3 a falling away first and the man of sin revealed before our gathering.


Matt 24:31 has many signs preceding the gathering.

Second Coming — many signs precede it



8. Rapture — revealed only in New Testament

Daniel 12:2 is the resurrection.

Job 19:25-26 Job stated in his resurrected body he would see his redeemer when He (Christ) shall stand upon the earth.

Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments

9. Rapture — deals with only the saved

Only if one separates coming of the Lord passages into two events.

Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved



10. Rapture — Satan remains free

What resurrection passage says satan remains free?

Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss



Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario.

They are only “clearly” different events if one focuses only on the differences in passages as you have done and ignores the things that harmonize.


I pointed some of those things out in my original post. You are the 3rd person to respond to the post and the 3rd person to ignore the facts presented.


If we focus only on the differences then it could be argued that 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are different events. How many on the pre-trib side of this debate want to do that?


All coming of the Lord passages will harmonize if allowed to. Some focus on resurrection, some focus on judgement following the resurrection, some add details that others leave out but none of them are contradictory!


No two coming of the Lord passages are identical, shall we have 3 or 4 or 5 comings of the Lord because of this fact? No there is only one coming in our future.

Our God is a big God and can accomplish all that needs to be done in one trip.

 

[Major1]

I didn’t say He said He was not taking people to heaven, I said scripture DOES NOT say that He was.



There is no scripture that says He will.



Please show us how to fit 3 harvests into this passage?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Or this passage?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Or John 6:39,40,44 & 54?

Below is what I found on your 3 harvests theory. If you can’t/won't explain it or apply it to this discussion why should anyone here consider it as a legitimate argument? How is teaching truth a waste of time? If you believe it to be truth it is your obligation to share it.

You have been and seem to be fixated on the idea of there being no Scriptures which says people go to heaven at the Rapture. Now IMO you are only saying that because YOU do not believe in the Rapture.

2 Corth. 12:1-4...............
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

Now did God say that?
Can God lie?
Is hell real?


Several interesting ideas come to mind.
First, what is the third heaven?
In Jewish and Christian thought at the time of Christ, Heaven is divided into three parts. They are:

• 1st Heaven - what we consider to be Earth's atmosphere
• 2nd Heaven - what we consider to be Outer Space - planets, stars, galaxies, etc.
• 3rd Heaven - the place where God lives - also called Paradise.

YOU are insisting that there is NO Scripture with says Jesus takes people back to heaven with Him.
The Greek word for paradise is "paradeisos". Where else do we see the word paradiesos in the Bible? The most relevant to this discussion is when Jesus was talking with the second criminal on the cross in Luke 23:40-43..............

"But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Both Jesus and Paul use the same word, paradeisos to reference Heaven. Both were referring to a literal place that exists and and a place that can be entered right now.

Second, Paul uses the same Greek word for "caught up" (harpazó) in both 2 Corth. 12:4 where he is talking about his own personal rapture and in 1 Thess. 4:16-17, where he is talking about the rapture of the church.........

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

So the question must actually be asked of YOU and that is where do YOU think the CLOUDS are and is there some other place than HEAVEN where Jesus would actually be?

For perspective, Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians around 50 - 52 AD (give or take a few years) and 2 Corinthians around 55 - 57 AD. Paul indicates his being "caught up" to Heaven occurred 14 years prior to writing 2 Corinthians. So, we'll estimate the date of his experience at 42 - 45 AD (again give or take a few years). That means Paul had already experienced being "CAUGHT UP" when he makes these claims in 2 Corth. 12:4. and 1 Thess. 4:17.

Or do you reject the Bible when Paul says that HE WAS CAUGHT UP to heaven just as you do the Rapture?

If You do, you then must realize that you are calling God a liar as Paul was directed by God to write the words I have posted for you from Paul.

Yes his experience was temporary, but he could fairly say "been there, done that!" Therefore, it makes sense to accept his claim about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thess. 4:17.Heavenly Perspectives - First Things First - Where Do We Go After the Rapture?

 

[Major1]

Major1 said:

The Bible sees the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18)

and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

As shown in my post, Matt 24 harmonizes quiet nicely with 1 Thess 4. Different facts emphasized do not necessarily prove a different event.


The superscription on the cross is described differently in the different gospels yet there was only one cross.

1. Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air

Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth

What passage in Zechariah 14 says Christ meets believers on the earth?

Do not those same saints that sleep in Jesus , 1 Thess 4:14 come with Him ? 1 Thess 3:12 and Zechariah 14:5



2. Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged

Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem

Mount of Olives is not mentioned in resurrection passages.

3. Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies

Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies

What “second coming” passage even addresses bodies ?

4. Rapture — believers go to heaven

What resurrection passage says believers go to heaven?

Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth

What passage mentions those that come with Him are glorified? In fact 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says the opposite.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is just before they are united with their glorified (resurrected) bodies.

5. Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin

What passage says after the resurrection the world is unjudged and living in sin?

Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established

2 Thess 2:1 & 2 Thess 2:8 has our gathering and the destruction of “that wicked” both at His coming.

6. Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath

What passage says the church is removed to avoid the wrath of God? God can and has all through scripture protected many from His judgements while the wicked were left to endure them.

Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath

Would that be the wrath of satan not the wrath of God? Verses please?

7. Rapture — no signs precede it

2 Thess. 2:1-3 a falling away first and the man of sin revealed before our gathering.


Matt 24:31 has many signs preceding the gathering.

Second Coming — many signs precede it



8. Rapture — revealed only in New Testament

Daniel 12:2 is the resurrection.

Job 19:25-26 Job stated in his resurrected body he would see his redeemer when He (Christ) shall stand upon the earth.

Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments

9. Rapture — deals with only the saved

Only if one separates coming of the Lord passages into two events.

Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved



10. Rapture — Satan remains free

What resurrection passage says satan remains free?

Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss



Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario.

They are only “clearly” different events if one focuses only on the differences in passages as you have done and ignores the things that harmonize.


I pointed some of those things out in my original post. You are the 3rd person to respond to the post and the 3rd person to ignore the facts presented.


If we focus only on the differences then it could be argued that 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are different events. How many on the pre-trib side of this debate want to do that?


All coming of the Lord passages will harmonize if allowed to. Some focus on resurrection, some focus on judgement following the resurrection, some add details that others leave out but none of them are contradictory!


No two coming of the Lord passages are identical, shall we have 3 or 4 or 5 comings of the Lord because of this fact? No there is only one coming in our future.

Our God is a big God and can accomplish all that needs to be done in one trip.

Not so!

Matthew 24 and 25 are written to and affect the Jews and have nothing to do with 1 or 2 Thess. as there was NO CHURCH in existence when Matthew was written.

1.
Rapture is not Jesus touching the ground. We meet Him in the Clouds and return to heaven for 7 years.

In Zech. 14, Jesus actually and physically touches the ground at His 2nd Coming.

2.
Zecheriah 14:4...........is the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.
"On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

3.
Bodies will be changed at the Rapture so as to be able to enter heaven.
1 Corth. 15:51-52. "We will be CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye"
I can not believe that you do not know about that verse.

4.
1 Thess. 4:14....."For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so, them also which have died in Jesus, WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM".
Again, I can not believe you have not read that verse. WILL BRING WITH HIM.


5.
Matthew 24:5-7 ......
For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.


6.
Rom. 5:9...............
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

1 Thess. 1:10...........
Wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess. 5:9-10..........
For God has not destined us to wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we live together with Him.

7.
Correct.

Incorrect as Matthew 24 is NOT directed at the Church at all so it would not apply in your theology with the church being gathered.

8.
Incorrect about Daniel 12:2. That is NOT the Rapture.
The resurrection of the JUST is immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation of 7 years.
The resurrection of Daniel 12:2 is the Old. Test. saints who died belonging to the remmant and they will be raised to everlasting life at the end of the Tribulation.
The CHUCH was Raptured 7 years earlier because the Church was IN CHIST and as I said....."GOD WIL BRING THOSE WHO DIED IN CHRSIT WITH HIM".

The reason these saints are raised at the END of Tribulation is because the time for them enter the Kingdom will be at hand as Christ comes to set up His Kingdom.

9.
CORRECT! You got that one RIGHT. The Lord Jesus comes at the Rapture for the church and then 7 years later physically just as the Scriptures say to establich His kingdom.

10.
There are NO Scriptures that say Satan is bound so why would you even ask the question my friend. That is one of the factors of identification between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming. Satan remains free to temp and deceive after the Rapture but is bound for 1000 years at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Rev. 20:1-3......
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

With all due respect, it seems to me that you should know about all those Scriptures.

Then it may be that a lot of people just do not want to argue with you as you have only shown that no matter what is said or shown to you, you have the ability to rationalize it to fit what you believe.

So then.......believe it!!!!!

Now I have asked you this before and I do not remember an answer but IF there is only ONE resurrection then why does Rev. 20:4-5 say........................
"...I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshiped the Beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
THEY CAME TO LIFE AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.
The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE ENDED THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHY THE WORD FIRST if there is only one??????

 

[Postvieww]

Major1 said:

You have been and seem to be fixated on the idea of there being no Scriptures which says people go to heaven at the Rapture. Now IMO you are only saying that because YOU do not believe in the Rapture.

I do not believe in “the rapture” as stated by pre-trib rapture promoters. I do believe in the resurrection as proclaimed in scripture. Job 19:25-26, Daniel 12:2, 1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 20:6.

I still have not seen a scripture posted that states Jesus resurrects anyone and takes them back to heaven. I have seen a lot of speculation and interpretational liberties.


2 Corth. 12:1-4...............

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

Now did God say that?

Can God lie?

Is hell real?

Distraction! This has nothing to do with the dead being raised.


Several interesting ideas come to mind.

First, what is the third heaven?

In Jewish and Christian thought at the time of Christ, Heaven is divided into three parts. They are:

1st Heaven - what we consider to be Earth's atmosphere

Agree.

2nd Heaven - what we consider to be Outer Space - planets, stars, galaxies, etc.

Agree.

3rd Heaven - the place where God lives - also called Paradise.

Yes, except Paradise in the context of the thief on the cross was in the heart of the earth, Abraham’s bosom, not where God dwells.

YOU are insisting that there is NO Scripture with says Jesus takes people back to heaven with Him.

The Greek word for paradise is "paradeisos". Where else do we see the word paradiesos in the Bible? The most relevant to this discussion is when Jesus was talking with the second criminal on the cross in Luke 23:40-43..............

Jesus spent 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth not in heaven where God dwells so the thief was not “this day” in heaven with Jesus he was in Abraham’s bosom. Jesus until after He saw Mary had not been to heaven. He had not yet ascended. John 20:17

"But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

To make this argument you have to ignore Jesus was three days and nights in the heart of the earth and the fact He told Mary He had not yet ascended. Paradise at that time was not in heaven where God dwells. Let’s not call apples ,oranges!

Both Jesus and Paul use the same word, paradeisos to reference Heaven. Both were referring to a literal place that exists and and a place that can be entered right now.

When we die now as believers our soul goes to heaven right now, where God dwells, it was not so when the thief died on the cross!

Second, Paul uses the same Greek word for "caught up" (harpazó) in both 2 Corth. 12:4 where he is talking about his own personal rapture and in 1 Thess. 4:16-17, where he is talking about the rapture of the church.........

Paul’s personal experience in being “caught up” did not result in a resurrected glorified body ,this has nothing to do with the resurrection and those that are alive and remain being changed.



"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."


So the question must actually be asked of YOU and that is where do YOU think the CLOUDS are and is there some other place than HEAVEN where Jesus would actually be?

I will answer with your own words stated above. If we meet Him in the clouds that would be the sky above our heads no mention of heaven where God dwells in the passage.

“1st Heaven - what we consider to be Earth's atmosphere”

Is this not where the clouds are?

For perspective, Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians around 50 - 52 AD (give or take a few years) and 2 Corinthians around 55 - 57 AD. Paul indicates his being "caught up" to Heaven occurred 14 years prior to writing 2 Corinthians. So, we'll estimate the date of his experience at 42 - 45 AD (again give or take a few years). That means Paul had already experienced being "CAUGHT UP" when he makes these claims in 2 Corth. 12:4. and 1 Thess. 4:17.

Not the same thing!

Or do you reject the Bible when Paul says that HE WAS CAUGHT UP to heaven just as you do the Rapture?

If You do, you then must realize that you are calling God a liar as Paul was directed by God to write the words I have posted for you from Paul.

What’s with all of this reject the Bible and calling God a liar stuff? It is the pre-trib rapture doctrine I reject. I do not reject the resurrection and gathering of the saints.

Yes his experience was temporary, but he could fairly say "been there, done that!" Therefore, it makes sense to accept his claim about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thess. 4:17

Again Paul’s experience had nothing to do with the resurrection. It makes no sense to link Paul’s experience with 1 Thess 4:17.

 

[keras]

So where is the scriptural proof that Jesus said that he is not taking people to heaven ?
There is none at all as that is just mere assumption.

You speak untruths!
Jesus said: No one goes to Heaven, except the One who came from there. Where I go you cannot come... Father I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. John 3:13, 7:34, 17:15, +
You are so locked into the false teaching of a rapture, that you seem unable to understand plain Words.

 

[Postvieww]

Then it may be that a lot of people just do not want to argue with you as you have only shown that no matter what is said or shown to you, you have the ability to rationalize it to fit what you believe.

Excuse me I thought I was on a debate forum. You share you views, I agree or disagree and tell you why, then you respond to the points I made to refute what I said or not. Sorry I am still learning that some here can make doctrinal declarations with no challenge to what they say allowed.

Is there not just a hint of arrogance in the implication that only the pre-trib side can show someone something?

I try my best to make my points based on my understanding of the same Bible you read. I also try very hard to leave out the unnecessary jargon like if you don’t see it my way you’re calling God a liar, don’t you know those scriptures. IMHO those remarks just lift you up and put me down.

We all believe we are right here. The hard part is proving it.

 

[seventysevens]

How many times does it take telling you that you you have totally skewed the meaning on that scripture - It does NOT means what you say it does
You have taken scripture out of it's context so that you can make it say something other that what it does say -

You speak untruths!
Jesus said: No one goes to Heaven, except the One who came from there.

Jesus is speaking in John 3 BEFORE his resurrection that only Jesus has come from heaven and no one goes there before he has died and raised to life , Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him that he would take him to heaven and He did !

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Where I go you cannot come...

In this context Jesus is saying gthey cannot come right now but WILL COME LATER
36 Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”
Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

John 8
Jesus was speaking to Pharisees whom Jesus called a brood of vipers and Jesus was telling the Pharisees that they cannot come to heaven because they will die in their sins
But as per usual you twist scripture to conform it to say what YOU choose it say irregardless of what it really means !

Father I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Again you have No understanding !

Jon 17: “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.

14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

You are so locked into the most ridiculous -preposterous -
misunderstandings of scripture that you cannot understand plain Words.

 

[Dig4truth]

The Parousia is a theological concept that comes from the Greek word parousia meaning "coming" or "presence." In the study of Bible prophecy, the term Parousia is used in reference to the Coming of Jesus Christ.

The word "parousia" is not a concept, it is a Greek word that has a meaning.

In some cases, the Parousia is used in reference to the time when Jesus Christ comes to rapture His people to be with Him. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says, "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." At any moment, the dead in Christ will rise followed by those alive in Christ to be with Christ forever (also 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 5:23; James 5:8; 1 John 2:28).

If the living cannot precede the dead how can there be a rapture? Would this not be the resurrection?

In other cases, the Parousia refers to Christ's return at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks at length about this event. Jesus will return in victory and defeat His enemies at Armageddon, beginning His reign upon David's throne in Jerusalem with His people.

It is important to understand that the Bible speaks of two different "comings" of Jesus Christ. Some believe Christ will return only once, at the end of the seven-year tribulation. However, a study of the passages that refer to Christ's coming note many differences between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. Most notably, at the rapture Jesus will come on the clouds to take His people to be with Him. This will take place at any moment and before the seven-year tribulation period. At His second coming, Jesus will come down to earth with His people to defeat His enemies and begin His reign in Jerusalem for the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-7). The following (adapted from www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf ) highlights many of these key differences:

RAPTURE
• Translation of all believers
• Translated saints go to heaven
• Earth not judged
• Imminent, any-moment
• Not in the Old Testament
• Believers only
• Before the day of wrath
• No reference to Satan
• Jesus comes in the air
• Jesus claims His bride (the Church)
• Only His own see Jesus
• Tribulation begins

SECOND COMING
• No translation
• Previously translated saints return to earth
• Earth judged and righteousness established
• Follows definite predicted signs, including tribulation
• Predicted often in Old Testament
• All people impacted
• Concluding the day of wrath
• Satan bound
• Jesus comes to the earth
• Jesus comes with His bride (the Church)
• Every eye will see Jesus
• Millennial Kingdom begins

The Parousia is an essential part of the study of biblical prophecy. In discussing the Parousia one should be careful to define to which coming of Christ he or she is referring and to note many of the important, significant differences between the rapture and return of Christ.
The Parousia - What is it?

The problem for your position is that the language only speaks about a single coming.

 

[Dig4truth]

You speak untruths!
Jesus said: No one goes to Heaven, except the One who came from there. Where I go you cannot come... Father I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. John 3:13, 7:34, 17:15, +
You are so locked into the false teaching of a rapture, that you seem unable to understand plain Words.

Well spoken!!!
I agree whole heartedly.

 

[seventysevens]

Well spoken!!!
I agree whole heartedly.

Too bad you are as ill informed as keras - you guys need to study BIBLE and not just some skewed books that are not bible
soul sleep is NOT biblical - but you prefer it !

 

[Archmike]

The Parousia is a theological concept that comes from the Greek word parousia meaning "coming" or "presence." In the study of Bible prophecy, the term Parousia is used in reference to the Coming of Jesus Christ.

In some cases, the Parousia is used in reference to the time when Jesus Christ comes to rapture His people to be with Him. For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says, "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." At any moment, the dead in Christ will rise followed by those alive in Christ to be with Christ forever (also 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 5:23; James 5:8; 1 John 2:28).

In other cases, the Parousia refers to Christ's return at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks at length about this event. Jesus will return in victory and defeat His enemies at Armageddon, beginning His reign upon David's throne in Jerusalem with His people.

It is important to understand that the Bible speaks of two different "comings" of Jesus Christ. Some believe Christ will return only once, at the end of the seven-year tribulation. However, a study of the passages that refer to Christ's coming note many differences between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. Most notably, at the rapture Jesus will come on the clouds to take His people to be with Him. This will take place at any moment and before the seven-year tribulation period. At His second coming, Jesus will come down to earth with His people to defeat His enemies and begin His reign in Jerusalem for the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-7). The following (adapted from www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf ) highlights many of these key differences:

RAPTURE
• Translation of all believers
• Translated saints go to heaven
• Earth not judged
• Imminent, any-moment
• Not in the Old Testament
• Believers only
• Before the day of wrath
• No reference to Satan
• Jesus comes in the air
• Jesus claims His bride (the Church)
• Only His own see Jesus
• Tribulation begins

SECOND COMING
• No translation
• Previously translated saints return to earth
• Earth judged and righteousness established
• Follows definite predicted signs, including tribulation
• Predicted often in Old Testament
• All people impacted
• Concluding the day of wrath
• Satan bound
• Jesus comes to the earth
• Jesus comes with His bride (the Church)
• Every eye will see Jesus
• Millennial Kingdom begins

The Parousia is an essential part of the study of biblical prophecy. In discussing the Parousia one should be careful to define to which coming of Christ he or she is referring and to note many of the important, significant differences between the rapture and return of Christ.
The Parousia - What is it?

Well-said, and well-reasoned Major ! There are two different "appearances" of Christ. One on clouds with great power and glory at the time of The Rapture. The other, on a white horse with his saints at Armageddon. In the first appearing, he never touches earth. In the second he does.

I promote you to Lt. Colonel !