Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Major1]

I'm confused? It seems that you agreed with one of my posts in this thread, where, in that post, I was debunking Pretrib. Yet, in this post you wrote this---"we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture"

Did you perhaps misunderstand the post you were apparently agreeing with then?

That must be the case and thanks for pointing it out to me. I will have to go back and look and change the option.

I am in fact a believer in the pre Tribulation Rapture.

 

[Major1]

deleted/Not in good taste I repent

God bless you!

 

[Major1]

A distinction without a difference maybe?

I would contend our gathering takes place at the time of the resurrection.

Matthew 24:31, John 6:39,40,44 & 54, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52, ! Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 all one event one gathering for the church.

That day of verse 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the same day of verse 1 &2.

I do not agree with your thinking here.

“Coming” is parousia, the word Paul used in 1 Thessalonians 2:9 and 4:15 and
parousia may be used of Christ’s return for the church as described in 4:15 or of His return to earth at the end of the Tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 5:1.
But again, see the comments in the exposition of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 on this issue. In other words, there is a parousia for the church before the day of the Lord and a parousia at the close of the time of wrath.

“Gathering together” is episunagoges, “a gathering together, an assembly.” This is clearly a reference to the event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Episunagoges is used only here and in Hebrews 10:25 of the congregation of believers. Thus, the subject of the passage concerns the coming of Christ, but especially that coming which concerns our being gathered together to meet Him in the air as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13f. The rest of the chapter will deal with the day of the Lord, but the purpose of chapter 2 is in the interest of an understanding that protects the truth of believers being gathered together at His coming for the church, i.e., before the day of the Lord. The error that was being taught about the day of the Lord was undermining the truth and meaning or blessed hope of the rapture which promises our deliverance from the wrath to come (1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9-10).
4. Correction Concerning the Day of the Lord—Part 1 (2 Thes. 2:1-5)

 

[Kaon]

Yes my brother you are correct. We should WANT to be obedient to the Father but that is NOT THE PROBLEM is it????

What we want to do and what we actually do is two different things so just like Paul I have not missed the reality of life and sin which dwells in us.

Romans 7:14-20.........
" For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

We can WANT to keep the commandmensts of God to the very tittle of them, but the reality is that we can not do it.

Now why does God give the Church an escape of the Tribulation was your question.

Because the7 year Tribulation Period is all about the nation of Israel!!!!!

Why will the Christ-rejecting world go through Tribulation? Because that’s what it will take to finally bring the Jews – the apple of God’s eye (Zech 2:8) – into the true Messiah Jesus’ sheepfold (John 10:1-18). Does Jesus have other sheep (John 10:16)? Yes, He has His Church. But consider the lost sheep of Luke 15:3-7; when one sheep was lost, the good Shepherd leaves the other ninety-nine to find that sheep and rejoices when He returns it to its fold. So also is Messiah with His people Israel. They are few compared to the Gentile Church; but Messiah loves them passionately and will not abandon His nation Israel to hell.

But He has decided that His church is not to be the focus of His wrath hence the Rapture or Removal.

If you do not continue to try to follow the commandments of God, refining yourself after every shortcoming (sin,) then you may not bebloving God with all of your might and spirit. Six times we fall, but the seventy we stand. We are supposed to continually die to ourselves, and crucifying our flesh. The sacrifices of the saints are a contrite heart; even if you FAIL you continue to try to be obedient.


It is less about 100% obedience (we have grace if we mess up,) But more about real9zing that we are supposed to be obedient to all of His laws.

I think it is very dangerous to suggest we don't have to follow God's commandments when both He and Christ explicitly say otherwise. If you interpret a human to say otherwise, then that human is a liar even if he is one of the most known "author" man in Christian canon history.


As far as the rapture and Israel, Israel is a nation of people. God is not so silly that He would designate land as His people through perpetuity. The people who love Him and keep his commandments are Israel. See what Christ calls His brother, or mother (i.e. family.) He didn't say that "those who take on the name of a Jew, and/or take control of a piece of physical land are my brother and mother."

You already know how I feel about the rapture. I hope you have naturally gone on before the time comes, because it will be devastating to the faith when it doesn't. It is a psychological operation perpetuated to make a mockary of the religions - not just Christianity. A rapture covers many "bases" for founding BEASTLY agendas. I won't lose anything if it doesn't happen, but I remember the dread I felt when I believed in the rapture, and thought being left behind was 2 steps from going to hell.

 

[BABerean2]

There will obviously be a great multitude saved as that is the reason for the Tribulation Period. However........those saved will be the ones who have never heard the Gospel and IMO most will be JEWS.

You are giving your opinion, which is not based on scripture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Once again in the post above, you have converted the word "tribulation" into the word "wrath", to make your doctrine work.

You are also ignoring the devil's wrath in Revelation 12:12.
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[Major1]

If you do not continue to try to follow the commandments of God, refining yourself after every shortcoming (sin,) then you may not bebloving God with all of your might and spirit. Six times we fall, but the seventy we stand. We are supposed to continually die to ourselves, and crucifying our flesh. The sacrifices of the saints are a contrite heart; even if you FAIL you continue to try to be obedient.


It is less about 100% obedience (we have grace if we mess up,) But more about real9zing that we are supposed to be obedient to all of His laws.

I think it is very dangerous to suggest we don't have to follow God's commandments when both He and Christ explicitly say otherwise. If you interpret a human to say otherwise, then that human is a liar even if he is one of the most known "author" man in Christian canon history.


As far as the rapture and Israel, Israel is a nation of people. God is not so silly that He would designate land as His people through perpetuity. The people who love Him and keep his commandments are Israel. See what Christ calls His brother, or mother (i.e. family.) He didn't say that "those who take on the name of a Jew, and/or take control of a piece of physical land are my brother and mother."

You already know how I feel about the rapture. I hope you have naturally gone on before the time comes, because it will be devastating to the faith when it doesn't. It is a psychological operation perpetuated to make a mockary of the religions - not just Christianity. A rapture covers many "bases" for founding BEASTLY agendas. I won't lose anything if it doesn't happen, but I remember the dread I felt when I believed in the rapture, and thought being left behind was 2 steps from going to hell.

You said.........
"I think it is very dangerous to suggest we don't have to follow God's commandments when both He and Christ explicitly say otherwise. If you interpret a human to say otherwise, then that human is a liar even if he is one of the most known "author" man in Christian canon history."

Not only is it dangerous, it can be eternally fatal. I do not know WHY you would say that as it has not been mentioned doing such a thing my dear friend.

As I have said, we must try our very best to follow the commandments of God. The problem is THAT WE ARE UNABLE TO DO SO.

Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come sort of the approval of God", was written by an apostle.
If he recognized that he could not keep all of the commandments why do YOU think you can my friend?"

As for the Rapture. My dear brother, if YOU do not want to accept the Rapture then don't!!!

As for the Land, YES He gave the land to the Israelites. That is the PROMISED land for them.

Jews were never promised heaven my friend. They were promised the PROMISED LAND.

Israel was chosen by God from all the peoples of the world to be the focus of special blessing in the history of redemption which climaxed in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Deut. 7:6.........
"The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth".

Deut. 34:4........
"This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your offspring".

Do you deny that God promised to Israel the presently disputed land from the time of Abraham onward???? Is that what you are saying or I am misunderstanding your comments?

 

[BABerean2]

As for the Land, YES He gave the land to the Israelites. That is the PROMISED land for them.

Jews were never promised heaven my friend. They were promised the PROMISED LAND.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

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[Major1]

You are giving your opinion, which is not based on scripture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Once again in the post above, you have converted the word "tribulation" into the word "wrath", to make your doctrine work.

You are also ignoring the devil's wrath in Revelation 12:12.
.

No sir.....I do not do that. You are trying to calim that because you do not agree.

Please read and study 2 Thess. 2:9.....
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders".

"HIM there is the A/C. At this point in the order of time, the Rapture has taken place and the A/C has come to power.

Verse 10 says......
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Now did you read those words????
"them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

They will perish because they did not believe, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED?????
Is that what it says?????

Now is it your understanding that in order to NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, YOU WOULD THEN HAVE TO HAVE HEARD THE TRUTH????
IS THAT NOT COMPLETLY LOGICAL????

So is it not also true that in order to be saved a man has to hear the gospel?????

Romans 10:17 says......
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

So then, is it not perfectly clear to you now that when a person hears the gospel and rejects the gospel, then because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Now then, after all that look at Verse 11.
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"

In other words, because they rejected the TRUTH who is in fact the Lord Jesus Christ they will then accept the LIE who is and always has Satan.

So then what is their end?????

Verse 12........
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

What I am saying is my understanding of those BIBLE verse which to me clearly say that if you have heard the gospel and reject it and the Rapture takes place, then you will not be able to be saved.

If you do not want to accept that........wonderful!

By the way.......Large bold letters do not impress me in any way whatsoever. In fact it does the opposite.

 

[Kaon]

You said.........
"I think it is very dangerous to suggest we don't have to follow God's commandments when both He and Christ explicitly say otherwise. If you interpret a human to say otherwise, then that human is a liar even if he is one of the most known "author" man in Christian canon history."

Not only is it dangerous, it can be eternally fatal. I do not know WHY you would say that as it has not been mentioned doing such a thing my dear friend.

As I have said, we must try our very best to follow the commandments of God. The problem is THAT WE ARE UNABLE TO DO SO.

Romans 3:23........
"ALL have sinned and come sort of the approval of God", was written by an apostle.
If he recognized that he could not keep all of the commandments why do YOU think you can my friend?"

As for the Rapture. My dear brother, if YOU do not want to accept the Rapture then don't!!!

As for the Land, YES He gave the land to the Israelites. That is the PROMISED land for them.

Jews were never promised heaven my friend. They were promised the PROMISED LAND.

Israel was chosen by God from all the peoples of the world to be the focus of special blessing in the history of redemption which climaxed in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Deut. 7:6.........
"The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth".

Deut. 34:4........
"This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your offspring".

My fear is that Christians are rationalizing our ignorance of God's law - "OLD" and "NEW" - by using our sad state as an excuse. That is not a cop-out; God's Ten commandments, His Leviticus laws, and all of the laws He has previously set up are still active, and expected of us to follow unless [The Word of] God Himself says otherwise.

God never ended any law. He specifically said not one iota or jot will pass from the Law because Christ is the Word of God - in which the Law is contained.

tl;dr: Christians are expected to be obedient to all of God's laws even if they cannot be perfect. That is what sanctification is - gradual refinement until you finally (die and) resurrect. Sanctification takes a lifetime often.

Do you deny that God promised to Israel the presently disputed land from the time of Abraham onward???? Is that what you are saying or I am misunderstanding your comments?

You are misunderstanding my comment.

Of course, God promised land to the Israelites/Hebrews, but the Hebrews themselves are a people.


In fact, it should be clear that if we are focusing on land in general to qualify Israel, we are missing the point. Jerusalem - the spiritual city - is the capital city, Israel will permeate the entire world. The land is the Hebrews - whomever they are, and whomever they may be.

This entire thing called life as we know it is a physical projection of spiritual things. The Kingdom is already at hand; it isn't found in land, or in the trees, or in the mountains.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21
​

The Word of God said the above. We are still fighting on a carnal level; of course physical Israel (not the people scattered around this planet that God calls His remnant) would be the focus for religiosity. It is a spiritual distraction.

 

[Postvieww]

His return to earth at the end of the Tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 5:1.

5:1 is not a separate coming from 4:15.

If the church was removed in 4:15 leaving only wicked to be present for the tribulation there would be no need for the exhortation from Paul for the “brethren” of 5:4 to watch and stay sober stated in 5:6. It should be clear that if the church is gone in a previous separate event, at 4:15 there should be no brethren left to watch and stay sober so as to not be overtaken as a thief, 5:2.

Only one more coming of the Lord, immediately after the tribulation. All coming of the Lord passages yet to be fulfilled are one event.

 

[Postvieww]

You are trying to calim that because you do not agree.

Are you trying to claim the coming of 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is a different coming than the one in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 because you disagree? What is it in the text that allows that to happen?

Our Lord can multitask gathering His own in the same trip as consuming “that wicked” with the brightness of His coming.

 

[BABerean2]

So then, is it not perfectly clear to you now that when a person hears the gospel and rejects the gospel, then because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

I heard the Gospel preached many times, before I finally accepted it as the truth.

I had a friend who taught Sunday-school in his church body for many years before he finally accepted the Gospel.
Today's churches are full of people like this.

Maybe you accepted it the first time you heard it as a child.
However, that is not always the case.


.

 

[Major1]

Are you trying to claim the coming of 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is a different coming than the one in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 because you disagree? What is it in the text that allows that to happen?

Our Lord can multitask gathering His own in the same trip as consuming “that wicked” with the brightness of His coming.

I am not claiming any thing at all. I am only stating what I know and understand.

But the answer to your question is YES.

IMO the 2nd Coming of Christ is in two phases.

IMO understanding, the Rapture is the focus of 2 Thess. 2:1 and that is the 1st phase.
He calls for His church to come up and meet Him in the air.
"Our gathering together unto Him" in verse I is the 1st phase.

Then 7 years later He comes down and stands on the Mt. of Olives and establishes His kingdom. It is at that point the A/C shall be consumed with the brightness of His glory and presence.

 

[BABerean2]

IMO the 2nd Coming of Christ is in two phases.

Why should we accept your opinion, instead of the writings of the Early Church Fathers found below ?

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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[Major1]

I heard the Gospel preached many times, before I finally accepted it as the truth.

I had a friend who taught Sunday-school in his church body for many years before he finally accepted the Gospel.
Today's churches are full of people like this.

Maybe you accepted it the first time you heard it as a child.
However, that is not always the case.


.

And I would be in that same group as well. Many people hear and then have more explanations given to them as time goes by and then they accept Christ.

But I do not understand what your point is here my friend.

Noah took 120 years to build the Ark. The whole population of the earth heard his testimony of why he was doing what he was doing. How many of those got into the Ark and were saved?????????

How many people do you think have sat in church Sunday after Sunday and heard the gospel preached and never accepted Christ and on the way home were killed in a car accident??????

How many have been witnessed to and they said....."I will think about it and get back to you later".........only to drop dead of a heart attack?????

The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 6:2 .........
"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."

Pay day comes someday and the Rapture closes the door of salvation for those who have heard the gospel and rejected Jesus just as much as when God closed the door of the Ark.

 

[BABerean2]

And I would be in that same group as well. Many people hear and then have more explanations given to them as time goes by and then they accept Christ.

But I do not understand what your point is here my friend.

The point is that you do not seem to remember your previous statements.

You claimed earlier that those who had not accepted the Gospel before the tribulation period would not be able to accept it during the tribulation period.

Not even the "Left Behind" books and movies agree with you on that point.
Once again, it is only your opinion.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.

 

[Major1]

Why should we accept your opinion, instead of the writings of the Early Church Fathers found below ?

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

LOL.......Listen my dear brother. YOU do not have to accept one single word that I say......
NOT ONE. I am NOT an authority. I am not the POPE.
I am nothing more than an old country boy from the Promised land of N.A.

All I am doing is posting the things that I was taught and have then taught those things to others over the years.

Now, if you read the same Bible I read, and prayer over the same verses and the Holy Spirit moves you to some other conclusion that what I have stated, then please feel free to ignore me.

All I can say to you that instead of the early church fathers, 2000 years has allowed a lot of people to do a lot of study in a book we call the Word of God.

For example. The early church did not know or teach or expound salvation by FAITH thru GRACE with out any work from the church, Martin Luther did that in 1550. Why do you think that the early fathers did not come up with the same 99 Thesis that Luther did 1500 years before he did?

 

[Major1]

The point is that you do not seem to remember your previous statements.

You claimed earlier that those who had not accepted the Gospel before the tribulation period would not be able to accept it during the tribulation period.

Not even the "Left Behind" books and movies agree with you on that point.
Once again, it is only your opinion.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.

You are incorrect.
I said and say again that those who have HEARD and rejected the gospel can not be saved after the Rapture.

Again, you are correct about the "Left Behind" movie.
Now YOU read 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 and YOU tell me what it says to you.

What does......
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" mean to YOU?????/

The movie is wrong. Are you basing your theology on a Movie or the Scriptures?

 

[Major1]

5:1 is not a separate coming from 4:15.

If the church was removed in 4:15 leaving only wicked to be present for the tribulation there would be no need for the exhortation from Paul for the “brethren” of 5:4 to watch and stay sober stated in 5:6. It should be clear that if the church is gone in a previous separate event, at 4:15 there should be no brethren left to watch and stay sober so as to not be overtaken as a thief, 5:2.

Only one more coming of the Lord, immediately after the tribulation. All coming of the Lord passages yet to be fulfilled are one event.

1 Thess. 4:15-5-17 is the Rapture the 1st Phase of the 2nd Coming.

Then after the Tribluation of 7 years the 2nd Coing will take place.
TWO events separated by 7 years according to the Scriptures.

5:1 has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

My dear friend, you trying to place the books in chorological order. He is writing to the church in Thess. encouraging them to realize that the coming of the Lord is not going to happen to them tomorrow (There Time). They had understood that Jesus 2nd Coming was imminent to them then but as we know it has been 2000 years.

If you do not learn the dispensations and there distinctions which are made in the Scriptures you will be hopelessly confused. The entire totality of the prophetic Word of God have to be considered.

 

[DavidPT]

Now is it your understanding that in order to NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, YOU WOULD THEN HAVE TO HAVE HEARD THE TRUTH????
IS THAT NOT COMPLETLY LOGICAL????

As to this last part you put, of course that is logical, thus explains the falling away mentioned earlier in this chapter. Maybe you are of the OSAS camp, not sure. But I am of the NOSAS camp, thus I have no problem seeing how this last part in your post connects with the falling away mentioned earlier in the chapter. BTW, I tend to relate to folks who like to be logical about things. So keep that in mind since that's exactly what I try to be as well, logical about things.

"HIM there is the A/C. At this point in the order of time, the Rapture has taken place and the A/C has come to power.

I tend to disagree with that conclusion.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In verse 8 the only coming I see in that verse is this one----whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Doesn't it then stand to reason that verse 9 and 10 should be understood as such?

Even Christ, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

A Pretrib rapture aside for a moment. Let's focus on the 2nd coming. Which comes first? the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, or the 2nd coming of Christ? Obviously the former comes first, because once Christ returns, meaning the 2nd coming, the former certainly won't be happening post that time. The AC and satan obviously work together. That verse indicates someone is coming AFTER the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, where I take it to mean after that particular period of time has been fulfilled.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


It looks like some lying wonders happening in the above passage. How can this not be connected with this in 2 Thessalonians 2---the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders? And if it is, it would not be after the working of satan, it would be during the working of satan instead.