Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[precepts]

The standard "Come UP Hither" Chapter 4 is considered to be representative of the taking UP of the believers (the church) prior to the tribulation. After that time no where is the church mentioned, as prior to that in Revelation. Each time after John is told to "come and see" instead.

It's important to compare Scripture with Scripture and there is plenty spelling out the timeline etc through out the OT prophecies and what Paul wrote as well.

Considered by who?

And what scriptures are you comparing when you consider "come up hither" to be a rapture?

None!

And that's because you're embellishing the facts.

 

[NW82]

The English rapture word comes from a Latin word, rapio, in the Latin version of the Bible which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39, and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor. 12:2-4.

 

[drjean]

Please don't attack me. I see no place where I "embellished" God's Word. The Book of Revelation is to be studied and understood, by using what God has already told us in His Word, by understanding Israelite/Jewish history and traditions (such as the marriage ritual) and through guidance by The Holy Spirit.


If you have compared the Old(er) Testament prophecies and Paul's writings and still don't believe it, well that is your choice.

 

[drjean]

Actually, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate translation by St Jerome much, much earlier. The event has always been in God's Word, and has been promised since God spoke of His wrath (time of tribulation) being only for the Israelites who did not keep jubilee.

• The Rapture
  
  Behold, I tell you a secret; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15.51-52).
  
  The Word “Rapture” (ἁρπάζω)
  
  The word “rapture” does not occur in our English Bibles. We get the word by way of St. Jerome (c. 347-420 A.D.). In his work of revising the Latin New Testament from the Greek New Testament, he translated the Greek word ἁρπάζω into the Latin “rapiemur.” The Latin verb form is “rapio” and means to be “caught up” or “taken away.” From these Latin words come our English word “rapture.” While Paul used the word ἁρπάζω only once (1 Thessalonians 4.17), he taught the doctrine of the Rapture in other places using other expressions. The Greek word ἁρπάζω means to “seize” or “snatch away.” It is used 13 times in the following verses: Matthew 11.12, 13.19; John 6.15, 10.12, 28-29; Acts 8.39, 23.10; 2 Corinthians 12.2, 12.4; 1 Thessalonians 4.17; Jude 1.23; Revelation 12.5.

 

[precepts]

Please don't attack me. I see no place where I "embellished" God's Word. The Book of Revelation is to be studied and understood, by using what God has already told us in His Word, by understanding Israelite/Jewish history and traditions (such as the marriage ritual) and through guidance by The Holy Spirit.


If you have compared the Old(er) Testament prophecies and Paul's writings and still don't believe it, well that is your choice.

Please! There's no evidence for your conclusions other than speculation. You can't convince a court of law that come up hither to John is a rapture just because. That's utter nonsense.

And again I reiterate the fact that nowhere in the scriptures does it say the righteous are taken and the rest are left behind. You have to speculate on that every time.

 

[Kaon]

"But, there is no rapture"
You can be wrong if you choose, and it seems you have chosen. If you don't like what Paul wrote, then simply tear it out of your bible! But don't come on a public forum and deny what is written. You will be caught every time.

I like what Paul wrote. However, he doesnt matter. If we are going by hierarchy of the credibility from God, it would be the angel that told Daniel that the wise ones/saints would have to deal with the tribulation (but if they endured until the end, they would be saved.)

If any entity contradicts God, it is a liar. That include(s) Paul - if you think he is saying something contrary to God.

Now, if you can show me where God - the Most High God - said that He would come get us in the tribulation, then come back again and set up shop I am all ears. But I am not trusting any men but myself, and The Word of God.

If that means I have chosen to be wrong then so be it.

 

[drjean]

I suppose one could also study and compare the two different appearings of Christ---one for the gathering together of the believers prior to the tribulation, and the other for when He returns to finish the battle and set up the millennial reign on earth. Definitely 2 different appearances.

I don't wish to argue with you, but if you truly want to study this, I'm willing to give my time.

 

[precepts]

I suppose one could also study and compare the two different appearings of Christ---one for the gathering together of the believers prior to the tribulation, and the other for when He returns to finish the battle and set up the millennial reign on earth. Definitely 2 different appearances.

I don't wish to argue with you, but if you truly want to study this, I'm willing to give my time.

God is not going to take our evil generations away while his generation was martyred. You people know that.

 

[drjean]

I take that as a "No". You aren't willing to study more. (PS I do know that God warns throughout His prophecy that His Wrath is coming upon the Israelites who did not keep the jubilee. ) Be well.

 

[Postvieww]

I would submit that the "rapture" is not in view but rather the resurrection. To put it another way, the only rapture is the one associated with the resurrection.

A distinction without a difference maybe?

I would contend our gathering takes place at the time of the resurrection.

Matthew 24:31, John 6:39,40,44 & 54, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52, ! Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 all one event one gathering for the church.

That day of verse 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the same day of verse 1 &2.

 

[Postvieww]

deleted/Not in good taste I repent

 

[Dig4truth]

A distinction without a difference maybe?

I would contend our gathering takes place at the time of the resurrection.

Matthew 24:31, John 6:39,40,44 & 54, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52, ! Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 all one event one gathering for the church.

That day of verse 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the same day of verse 1 &2.

That was the point I made. I believe we agree on this.

 

[Dig4truth]

Dig, you are simply not digging deeply enough.

OF COURSE there is a resurrection associated with the rapture event, for it is written that the dead in Christ rise first.
Question: in 2 Thes. 2:3, part B, is the man of sin revealed at that time in Paul's argument?

II Thes 2:2 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him,

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.


The man of Torahlessness (Lawlessness) will be revealed before Yeshua returns. Before we are gathered to Him.

Isn't that how you read this passage?

 

[Major1]

No one is saved on obedience alone because we come from a demoted race of carnal beings - humans. We no longer have the title of "Son(s) of God" biologically (that includes Seth.)

I have not seen a proponent of obedience stipulate that obedience is a requirement for salvation. We know that Christ is the way, the Truth and the LIFE. Through Him we have life - not by the Law.


However, that doesn't mean we are given carte blanche to dismiss God's commandments as if He does not expect us to be obedient to Him. He is our Father; what Father would renege on their rules for their children? He has already softened His heart by giving us a chance at Life, and dying for us.

God said that He does NOT change - He does not "do things differently." In fact, prophecy, physics and mathematics given by God are a way to ascertain His signature. He told us everything, and He has told/shown us His commandments are not void. His commandments are followed by those who love Him - as His son (the Word of God) stated. If Christ was persecuted as He was, why does the Church believe a mass of us will be "raptured" from tribulation God tell us is refinement - to make us white as snow/pure silver/pure gold?


If any entity contradicts God, it is a liar.


If you are under the impression that God wants your obedience as an "oblation" for Salvation, then you are still missing it. You should want to be obedient to your Father.

Yes my brother you are correct. We should WANT to be obedient to the Father but that is NOT THE PROBLEM is it????

What we want to do and what we actually do is two different things so just like Paul I have not missed the reality of life and sin which dwells in us.

Romans 7:14-20.........
" For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

We can WANT to keep the commandmensts of God to the very tittle of them, but the reality is that we can not do it.

Now why does God give the Church an escape of the Tribulation was your question.

Because the7 year Tribulation Period is all about the nation of Israel!!!!!

Why will the Christ-rejecting world go through Tribulation? Because that’s what it will take to finally bring the Jews – the apple of God’s eye (Zech 2:8) – into the true Messiah Jesus’ sheepfold (John 10:1-18). Does Jesus have other sheep (John 10:16)? Yes, He has His Church. But consider the lost sheep of Luke 15:3-7; when one sheep was lost, the good Shepherd leaves the other ninety-nine to find that sheep and rejoices when He returns it to its fold. So also is Messiah with His people Israel. They are few compared to the Gentile Church; but Messiah loves them passionately and will not abandon His nation Israel to hell.

But He has decided that His church is not to be the focus of His wrath hence the Rapture or Removal.

 

[Major1]

Neither of your favorite Bible quotes above, say that Heaven is the destination. It is to 'where Jesus is' at the time. That is; after He has departed from heaven and come to the earth for His Mill reign.

But the main reason that I refute any 'rapture to heaven', is the many prophesies saying how the faithful people of God will be gathered into all of the holy Land before the Return and then in the Millennium, they will be His priests and rulers. Revelation 5:10, 20:6
Plus how we are exhorted to 'endure until the end'. Revelation 13:10, 14:12
The scriptures saying 'we are not appointed to God's wrath', that you rapture believers love to tout, is God's promise of protection; not removal.

Again: Where in Revelation is a rapture mentioned?
Answer: NOWHERE.

Why would the Rapture need to be in the Revelation in order to be Biblical?

Where did you come across that kind of theology?

To the church of Philadelphia Jesus says in Revelation 3:10…........
"Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Now allow me to say to you that if you have already decided NOT to believe the Rapture no matter what you are shown, then we are wasting our time here. But I will say to you that when we dig into the verse above (Rev. 3:10) we can clearly see several truths which you are free to reject and you probably will.

1). The definite article in Greek appears in front of the word "hour" and the word "temptation." It is not referring to any particular period of trial, but to a specific one that is obviously still in the future at the writing of the Book of Revelation. It speaks of "THE hour of THE temptation/trial."

2). The specific trial is global in impact, not a local situation. John says concerning this coming trial: "which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD."

3). The purpose of this "temptation/trial" is to "try them that dwell upon the earth."

4). In the Book of Revelation these earth-dwellers appear to be non-believers, NOT believers! Consider Revelation 6:10; 11:10; 13:12, 14; 14:6; 17:8.

5). The preposition following the word "keep" is ek whose primary root meaning is "out of" - teaches removal, not immunity.


Revelation 4:1….
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, 'Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.'"

Revelation 4:2 adds..........
"And immediately I was in the spirit."

The definite article "the" is not in the Greek text. John simply says that he was "in spirit." The same thing is found in Revelation 1:10. By means of spiritual transference, John was ushered into heaven where he could view the events that would transpire on the earth in the future. He also heard a voice like a "trumpet" talking with him; The words of I Thessalonians 4:16 include "the trump of God."

The very fact of this detail would point to a possible Rapture that would precede the coming tribulation. John, both as an apostle and as a believer, would certainly picture such an event.
The Rapture in Revelation

 

[Major1]

"The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period."
This is a true statement. But it does not tell the whole truth. John shows us that the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, before the 70th week has started. Therefore the entire 70th week is wrath. Therefore each trumpet judgment will come with His wrath.

I can not agree with that.

IMO it is impossible to know if the Rapture will take place before or right after the peace treaty of Daniel.

It seems to me that the START of the Tribulation will begin with a 7 year peace treaty with Israel as stated in Daniel 9:27.

Then there will be 3 & 1/2 years of peace as seen in Daniel 9:27.

Then in the MIDDLE of the 7 year term the A/C commits the Abomination of Desolation as seen in Daniel 9:27 & Matt. 24:15 and 2 Thess. 2:4.

The A/C persecutes Israel for the last 3 & 1/2 years which is the GREAT Tribulation Period as seen in Matt. 24:15-24, Jere. 30:4-7 and Daniel 7:25.

Biblically, the 7th SEAL Judgment is the complete set of 7 Trumpet judgments and the 7th Trumpet Judgment is the complete set of 7 BOWL Judgments with the 7th BOWL Judgment being Armageddon itself.

In other words, the 7th Seal judgment overlaps the 1st Trumpet judgment and the 7th Trumpet overlaps the 1st Bowl judgment with each one becomes more and more intense.

But that is just my understanding and I am sure that several with disagree and argue their point and that is the purpose of a FORUM isn't it!!!

 

[DavidPT]

Since you don't seem to think the "Day of the Lord" and the days of great tribulation will happen at the same time, please delineate for us, in Revelation, WHERE: what verses to what verses:
1. The Day of the Lord...beginning
2. The days of great tribualtion: beginning and ending

I take the day of the Lord to be involving the 7 last vials of wrath. Let's look at one or two of those.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Let's compare the above to some of the following in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Does it sound reasonable that any of the above would be taking place while any of the vials of wrath were going on at the time?

For instance---


And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth---And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

What seems more reasonable? The former occurs first followed by at a later time, the latter. Or both occur at the same time? If you agree the former sounds more reasonable, and the fact we know the beast reigns for 42 months, it should be safe to conclude that the first vial follows after the 42 months have been fulfilled. This in turn agrees with Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :


Though not everyone agrees, most do agree that the tribulation of those days is meaning this same 42 months in Revelation 13. The text indicates that something follows immediately after this 42 months. What I have underlined above is apparently meaning the last 7 vials of wrath. Notice that it says shall the sun be darkened. Compare that to 5th vial, for instance---and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.

We know that is likely meaning literal darkness based on a similar event recorded in the OT.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.


Notice that it says---even darkness which may be felt. Compare that with the 5th vial----and they gnawed their tongues for pain.

Lets now look at Zephaniah again.

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The text indicates it is a day of darkness. Since I myself take the day of the Lord to be meaning an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day, that means it's not involving only a literal 24 hour day, but is involving many days. How many days, that I'm uncertain about. Though maybe it has something to do with the 1290 and 1335 days in Daniel 12? We know the 42 months in Revelation 13 are 1260 days. 1335 days are 75 more days than 1260 days. So I'm thinking then, though not certain, maybe these extra days are for the last 7 vials?

So when does Matthew 24:29 indicate the sun shall be darkened? During the GT or after the GT? After of course. That then also places the time of the day of the Lord recorded in Zephaniah to be meaning after the GT as well.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Verse 2 above establishes the context of verse 9. The wrath in verse 9 is not meaning the GT, the wrath in verse 9 is meaning the day of the Lord, and as I illustrated above, the day of the Lord follows after the GT rather than occurring simultaneously with it instead.

If you grasped my point above in regards to the darkness during the 5th vial, being darkness that can be felt, does it seem reasonable that that would be taking place any time during the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13? The point being, there are two wraths involved. The wrath of the GT, and the wrath of the Lord. The former involves satan's wrath. It is mainly the saints whom the wrath is being unleashed upon during the 42 months. The following for one proves it----And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. If that doesn't involve wrath, what does it involve? And doesn't Revelation 12 indicate satan has come down with great wrath? How could that great wrath not involve this 42 months in Revelation 13, the GT?

Since this post is already rather lengthy, I guess I better make my final point. That being, since there are two periods of wrath, one being satan's, the other being the Lord's, satan is allotted his time, this same 42 months, then it's the Lord's time for His wrath, which involve the 7 last vials after the 42 months have been fulfilled.

 

[Major1]

Have you ever read anything from the Early Church Fathers, like Irenaeus, who lived long before the time of Luther?
Luther became famous for standing up against the Papacy.
However, he was not the first person in the history of the Church to understand the doctrine of Grace.

Some of the Early Church Fathers also wrote about the resurrection of the Church in the link below.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

1. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey who YOU have quoted actualy has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”


YOU were trying to disrespect and reject the Rapture doctrine based on your comment that it was a NEW teaching and thereby on that basis it could be rejected.

That is nonsense my brother and in fact that has been made popular on many blog sites over the years.

1 Thess. 4:13 & 17-18.........
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren ... we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

IS THAT A RECENT BIBLE TEACHING????

The FACT is that the actual words were IN THE CANON OF SCRIPTURES for the past 2000 years. God placed the teaching in them knowing that HIS man would come along at the right time to expound those Scriptures so by that fact the doctrine of the Rapture is actually 2000 years old.

One of the strongest proofs of a Pretribulation Rapture is the event of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 9:27 and then again by the Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:15. This is the event when the Antichrist will claim to be god from the temple in Jerusalem, and demand that the world worship him or be killed. From this blasphemous event, it will be exactly 3 1/2 years until the Lord's SECOND COMING (2nd Thessalonians 2:4).

Since the Bible plainly states that no man knows WHEN the Rapture will occur (Matthew 25:13), we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture, because we DO KNOW it will be exactly 3 1/2 years between the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION and the SECOND COMING.

 

[DavidPT]

1. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey who YOU have quoted actualy has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”


YOU were trying to disrespect and reject the Rapture doctrine based on your comment that it was a NEW teaching and thereby on that basis it could be rejected.

That is nonsense my brother and in fact that has been made popular on many blog sites over the years.

1 Thess. 4:13 & 17-18.........
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren ... we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

IS THAT A RECENT BIBLE TEACHING????

The FACT is that the actual words were IN THE CANON OF SCRIPTURES for the past 2000 years. God placed the teaching in them knowing that HIS man would come along at the right time to expound those Scriptures so by that fact the doctrine of the Rapture is actually 2000 years old.

One of the strongest proofs of a Pretribulation Rapture is the event of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 9:27 and then again by the Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:15. This is the event when the Antichrist will claim to be god from the temple in Jerusalem, and demand that the world worship him or be killed. From this blasphemous event, it will be exactly 3 1/2 years until the Lord's SECOND COMING (2nd Thessalonians 2:4).

Since the Bible plainly states that no man knows WHEN the Rapture will occur (Matthew 25:13), we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture, because we DO KNOW it will be exactly 3 1/2 years between the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION and the SECOND COMING.

I'm confused? It seems that you agreed with one of my posts in this thread, where, in that post, I was debunking Pretrib. Yet, in this post you wrote this---"we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture"

Did you perhaps misunderstand the post you were apparently agreeing with then?

 

[Major1]

Many of the proponents of your doctrine claim otherwise.
They claim a large number of modern Jews will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.

If your statement above about nobody being saved after the the rapture is correct (and I agree with you), and the pretrib doctrine was correct, then how do you explain those under the blood in Revelation 12:11?
You are contradicting yourself.

"Indeed. Wrath and tribulation are two different words but that is hardly the point.

The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period.

Romans 2:5 says...........
“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed”."

First you turned the word "tribulation" into the word "wrath", and now you have turned the word "day" into "3 & 1/2 years", in Romans 2:5.

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I can see that we are going to have a problem.

You are NOT debating or communicating over a thread but instead trying to point out something that you think will benefit your opinion.

For example, you just said............
"If your statement above about nobody being saved after the the rapture is correct (and I agree with you), and the pretrib doctrine was correct".

BUT.....that is NOT what I said is it my brother???????

I actually did say...........
"And then it is just as Biblically true that if a man has heard the Gospel and rejected Christ, he then will not be able to be saved after the Rapture."

So you see, there is NO contradiction at all but there is a misspoken and misquoted phrase is there not???????

There will obviously be a great multitude saved as that is the reason for the Tribulation Period. However........those saved will be the ones who have never heard the Gospel and IMO most will be JEWS.

That right there answers your concern and question of Revelation 12:11.

Now just because YOU are focused on WORDS let me be clear for YOU.

The Tribulation is the 7 year period of time that runs from the Rapture to the 2nd Coming of Christ at Armageddon.

The word WRATH is what God will do during that time frame.