Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[Jordan Henshaw]

So is everybody who dies being punished eternally?

Everyone who dies in the lake of fire. Yes. But the first death obviously isn't eternal because of the resurrection.

 

[Der Alte]

Everyone who dies in the lake of fire. Yes. But the first death obviously isn't eternal because of the resurrection.

That is not what the post I was responding to said.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

And in support of my statement above here are the first 10 of 98 occurrences of ekei in the NT, excluding the wailing and gnashing verses. All refer to a specific place.

ekei isn't the entire phrase. "Ekei estai" is translated as "there will be". In Luke 15:7; 21:23, estai alone is translated as "there will be". In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as "there will be".

Luke 15:7; 13:28, Matthew 13:42; 8:12; 24:51, are the only times we have the combination of Ekei estai.

In Luke 13:28, the verse begins with the phrase, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." It is a separate verse; it is a separate clause altogether. The ekei "there" can't possibly refer to a specific place because no specific place has been mentioned at all!

Luke 13:28 - "And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’ 28There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out."

This isn't even talking about a fiery place, and yet still uses the phrase ekei estai. And you're trying to tell me that by some wonder of grammar the "there" must point to the fiery furnace/hell?

If you can show me a (different) verse that uses the phrase ekei estai and unquestionably by istelf refers to a place or time, then you might have proven that the weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs inside the lake of fire. Which is perfectly fine. It doesn't make a ton of sense (because weeping and gnashing of teeth is a response to anger, sorrow and bitterness (kind of like what you would feel after being judged) rather than pain), but it's perfectly fine. That doesn't conflict in the slightest with Annihilationism.

What you can't possibly do however is use this phrase to prove that the weeping and gnashing of teeth lasts forever.

We should undoubtedly be able to agree at least on this.

By annihilation I mean something more than physical “death.” If the “destruction””perishing” in the Bible means simply death why does God use a different word?

Because it is death and destruction. A lake of burning sulfur kills and destroys things.

The term "everlasting destruction" is only used once in the NT 1Thess 1:9. Notice "everlasting destruction" is modified “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” Something/someone that is destroyed cannot “be” from the presence of anything or anyone.

So ashes can't have a geographical location? Why do they need to be conscious in order to have a geographical location? Rocks exist in space. Are they conscious?

Twice Jesus mentions a punishment that is worse than death. In Matthew 18:6, Matthew 26:24. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

First, we need to define our terms. What do you mean by "death" (Jesus didn't use the word "fate", "death", judgment", or "punishment", so you're 100% in speculation territory)? Because we are told by a verse that speaks directly to these things that claims the punishment for sin is DEATH (Romans 6:23). So please define your terms.

Among the Jews in Jesus’ time there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment they called it both sheol and gehinnom. They believed that,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity.” Judith xvi. 17. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). So when Jesus taught “hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” What do you think they understood? They believed that there was a literal hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched

You're treading in dangerous waters. This of course isn't an argument from silence, but it is in the same neighborhood.

I don't have a time machine. I don't know how the majority of the Jews would have interpreted it. I don't know how many Jews would have held the beliefs of the writers of your encyclopedia. I don't know how accurate your encyclopedia is. But what I do know is that Jesus was directly quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 34.

Even if by some miracle there was enough evidence to prove that the majority of the Jews at the time these words were spoken believed in ECT, you can't use the ambiguity of Jesus' words to prove anything by saying that if he meant Annihilation, he should have been more clear. You can't put on those kinds of restraints. It's bad hermeneutics. If you disagree, I can go deeper into this.

Also, "quenched" in the context of fire doesn't mean that fire will never go out, but rather that it can never be extinguished by an external force, such as a firefighter. Sodom was eternally destroyed by unquenchable, eternal fire. Does that mean the fire never went out and is still burning to this day? Of course not.

See my response immediately above. Yes there are more than 200 different figures of speech in the Bible. But one or two figures of speech does not make everything figurative..

Granted. Some things are figurative and others aren't. We have to use context clues and "common sense" to tell us whether or not we are dealing with figurative language or not. Obviously Jesus never meant that the people listening to Him were literally grains of NaCl. This is common sense. Likewise, we can use the context clues in Isaiah 34 to understand that "the smoke rises forever" and "their worm shall not die" should be taken figuratively. Because it also tells us that various mammals will later inhabit the land. Also, common sense tells us that a worm can't literally eat a person's body for all eternity (you can't take an infinite bite out of anything - it will run out.)It is thereby made clear that the land will not be burning forever, that instead, the text is speaking metaphorically.

You can't just take those two short phrases out of that chapter and just flat out ignore the rest of the chapter. You have to take it in context.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

That is not what the post I was responding to said.

OK, so he was saying that an earthly execution is also eternal in that the person will never come back to life in this age. He's making a distinction between flat out eternal destruction and destruction that is only eternal to the end of the age.

The punishment of Hell is unquestionably flat out eternal destruction.

But I see where he is coming from.

 

[Der Alte]

ekei isn't the entire phrase. "Ekei estai" is translated as "there will be". In Luke 15:7; 21:23, estai alone is translated as "there will be". In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35".

Luk 15:7 there will be more rejoicing in heaven
Luk 21:23 There will be great distress in the land
Mat 24:7 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Luke 17:34; 17:35 2 Pet 2:1 The adverb ekei does not occur.

Luke 15:7; 13:28, Matthew 13:42; 8:12; 24:51, are the only times we have the combination of Ekei estai.
In Luke 13:28, the verse begins with the phrase, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." It is a separate verse; it is a separate clause altogether. The ekei "there" can't

possibly refer to a specific place because no specific place has been mentioned at all!

Luke 13:28 - "And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out."

Nonsense! You just grabbed a bunch of verses without even reading them. Where is the specific place in Luk 13:28 it is "outside the kingdom of God." Read the verse.

This isn't even talking about a fiery place, and yet still uses the phrase ekei estai. And you're trying to tell me that by some wonder of grammar the "there" must point to the fiery furnace/hell?

You really should read my posts and try to understand what I am saying. I did not say or imply that every occurrence of ekei was referring to fiery hell I said ekei always refers to a specific place. Try reading the definition of ekei in BDAG which I posted and linked to. In Greek the word ekei/there refers to a specific place it is never used as a nonspecific interjection as in English. I think I will just ignore the rest of this because you make similar errors throughout.

 

[Oseas]

I have said many times here on this site and in other forums beyond this, that we have entered and are living in the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (a Day for the Lord is like a thousand years), so I am compelled to demonstrate by the Scriptures the biblical periods from Adam until our days, as follow:

I must say or even state that we have just entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium (the seventh and last Day), that is the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance,

Based in the Word of God, the source of the Truth, on God's six Days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven Days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand YEARS (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4) so MANKIND will go through six God Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 YEARS) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 YEARS).

In accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, as follow:

Adam lived …........................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ............................................105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived .............................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived.............................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived .......................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived ............................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived .............................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived....................................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived .........................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood......... 600 yrs.
Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood = 1,656 yrs.

PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ------------------------DURATION
I - From Adam until the Flood-------------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood until Abraham----------------------427 years
III - From Abraham until Exodus-----------------------430 years
IV - From Exodus until king Saul ---------------------- 396 years
V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem --------------508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus ----------- 587 years
Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus --- 4,004 years

From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar)----2,017 years

Total from Adam until our days ----------------------6,021 years

Jesus came in the fourth Day or around 4.000 YEARS after the creation of the first Adam of the dust of the earth. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more two Days or 2000 YEARS, totalizing 6 complete Days or six millenniums, or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6.017 years, conform Christian Calendar pointing the beginning of the year 2.018.

We have entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's time, that is the Great Sabbath, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance. The world of Devil is already Judged, and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, will be punished with strong punishments, there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, the King of the kings and LORD of the lords.

And God Father has already entered in His rest, yea, God has already entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping, of course, and JESUS has assumed the government of the Universe. JESUS is now sat on His Tribunal, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all NATIONS, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:15)

In accord the verse 18, the NATIONS will be angry, and the wrath of God is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and God should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.

As is written, in the last Days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord (the Kingdom of God), will be established in the top of the mountains and it will be exalted above the hills; and people will flow unto it. And many nations will come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

The kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you. From the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. (Rev.12:7-11) And there was war in heaven (heaven(s) is not the physical space of the Universe-(sky), but celestial place(s) in Christ or Dispensations as is written in Eph.1:v.3) : Michael and his angels fought against the DRAGON (the Red Dragon, the own Satan incarnated and disguised as messiah); and the Dragon fought and his messengers, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And they (Michael and his angels) overcame him (overcome Satan and his angels) by the blood of the Lamb (by the blood of JESUS) and by the word of their testimony; and they (they whom?) loved not their lives unto the death.

Who is worth to enter in the Kingdom of God which will be established by the Most High God and Almighty in this beginning of the seventh millennium? For many are called, but few chosen. The great tribulation is at door, and because the elect's sake the days of great suffering to come will be shortened, the contrary there should no flesh be saved.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

...
Granted. Some things are figurative and others aren't. We have to use context clues and "common sense" to tell us whether or not we are dealing with figurative language or not. Obviously Jesus never meant that the people listening to Him were literally grains of NaCl. This is common sense. Likewise, we can use the context clues in Isaiah 34 to understand that "the smoke rises forever" and "their worm shall not die" should be taken figuratively. Because it also tells us that various mammals will later inhabit the land. Also, common sense tells us that a worm can't literally eat a person's body for all eternity (you can't take an infinite bite out of anything - it will run out.)It is thereby made clear that the land will not be burning forever, that instead, the text is speaking metaphorically.
You can't just take those two short phrases out of that chapter and just flat out ignore the rest of the chapter. You have to take it in context.

end

Was Jesus quoting Isaiah when He said "thrown into hell where 'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched?'"

Mark 9:47-48
(47) And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
(48) where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'​

Here is Isaiah.

Isaiah 66:20
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD....
Isaiah 66:24
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Please show me where Isaiah was referring to hell? Rather than quoting Isaiah, directly, what Jesus said more closely followed a then current teaching of the Jews. N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17...
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). As recorded in Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna.
​

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Jared lived ............................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;

In what universe is this on topic?

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

what Jesus said more closely followed a then current teaching of the Jews. N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.

Wow. So you're saying that Jesus wasn't directly quoting the prophet Isaiah (it was probably a direct quote, but we don't know because it is recorded in a different language), but was actually quoting the writings in your Jewish encyclopedia?

This just keeps getting better.

Please show me where Isaiah was referring to hell?

I'm not sure, but,

"For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many."

sounds like judgment to me. The first time we see this motif, in Isaiah 34, it is hard to imagine this event as anything other than judgment day.

 

[Oseas]

In what universe is this on topic?

Genesis 5-CJB - Complete Jewish Bible

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Luk 15:7 there will be more rejoicing in heaven
Luk 21:23 There will be great distress in the land
Mat 24:7 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Notice how the preposition "in" is absent in the phrase, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? If the above simply stated, "There will be rejoicing," or, "There will be great distress," or, "There will be famines," then we wouldn't know where said things take place!!!

Luke 17:34; 17:35 2 Pet 2:1 The adverb ekei does not occur.

"In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as 'there will be'."

Where is the specific place in Luk 13:28 it is "outside the kingdom of God."

So you think the preposition at the very beginning of the statement is referring to the noun at the very end. Because I guess in magic land we can use prepositions to point to things that haven't already been established. And you're calling my argument nonsense.

"'Depart from me!' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see what you missed, but you yourself were cast out."

So somehow the "there" is somehow, magically, in dream world pointing directly to Hell?

Wait a second... Shoot. This verse is actually telling us when the weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs! It says, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves were thrown out"!!!

Does it say, "There will be X when you feel the fire of Hell"? NOPE!!!

Does it say, "You will weep and gnash your teeth for all eternity while in Hell"??? NOPE!!!

 

[Oseas]

...
Granted. Some things are figurative and others aren't. We have to use context clues and "common sense" to tell us whether or not we are dealing with figurative language or not. Obviously Jesus never meant that the people listening to Him were literally grains of NaCl. This is common sense. Likewise, we can use the context clues in Isaiah 34 to understand that "the smoke rises forever" and "their worm shall not die" should be taken figuratively. Because it also tells us that various mammals will later inhabit the land. Also, common sense tells us that a worm can't literally eat a person's body for all eternity (you can't take an infinite bite out of anything - it will run out.)It is thereby made clear that the land will not be burning forever, that instead, the text is speaking metaphorically.
You can't just take those two short phrases out of that chapter and just flat out ignore the rest of the chapter. You have to take it in context.​

Was Jesus quoting Isaiah when He said "thrown into hell where 'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched?'"

Mark 9:47-48
(47) And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
(48) where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'​

Here is Isaiah.

Isaiah 66:20
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD....
Isaiah 66:24
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Please show me where Isaiah was referring to hell? Rather than quoting Isaiah, directly, what Jesus said more closely followed a then current teaching of the Jews. N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17...
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). As recorded in Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna.
​

N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17.

The words quoted from the satanic book of Judith xvi. 17 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, they were inspired and written by the spirit of Devil, by whom was guided and possessed by Satan, in truth a demon. You are sowing here the tares of Devil, I would like that you have not fellowship with devils.
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils, Things like such tares will be burned with everlasting fire, the hell's fire, together with the author.



.

 

[Oseas]

[QUOTE Der After] Wait a second... Shoot. This verse is actually telling us when the weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs! It says, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves were thrown out"!!![/QUOTE]

JESUS is sat on the throne of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, so though JESUS be invisible in this moment, or in the present time, even so He will punish the wicked nations in whole Earth from now on, their gigantic structures in all kind of activits will be demolished like an implosion and will fall by entire, and the anguish will be strong for all mankind, i.e. in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, so those who be alive, they will go down alive to the hell, those who are dead they will resurrect to be cast into the hell's fire.

 

[ClementofA]

Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible doesn't say it will not."

Wrong. My comment made no such argument. Neither did it state anything "must/will happen". Instead it was an argument against your position stating:

It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.

Irrelevant to my point that your 1 Cor.6:9-11, etc, texts do not disprove universalism. I've shown you are wrong in implying they are "proof texts" against universalism.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

No I'm not the amateur here. AFAIK I'm the only person in this discussion who has actually studied both Hebrew and Greek

Relative to Hebrew & Greek scholars you are an amateur. If only the remarks by such matter, then any private opinion of yours is worthless. That includes your opinions that AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS are never defined as a finite age, epoch or duration. Lexicons oppose you in that regard. They also oppose your purely amateurish speculation that those 4 words never refer to a finite duration, except when used as hyperbole.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Der Alte]

Notice how the preposition "in" is absent in the phrase, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? If the above simply stated, "There will be rejoicing," or, "There will be great distress," or, "There will be famines," then we wouldn't know where said things take place!!!

Tell you what amigo as soon as you show me a Greek grammar and/or lexicon which supports you then I will consider your opinion until then Bob Dylan..

"In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as 'there will be'."

Irrelevant I was not discussing the phrase "there will be" I was discussing the word 'ekei" in Matt.

So you think the preposition at the very beginning of the statement is referring to the noun at the very end. Because I guess in magic land we can use prepositions to point to things that haven't already been established. And you're calling my argument nonsense.

Greek is an inflected language, Greek grammar does not rely on the position of a word in a sentence.

"'Depart from me!' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see what you missed, but you yourself were cast out."
So somehow the "there" is somehow, magically, in dream world pointing directly to Hell?
Wait a second... Shoot. This verse is actually telling us when the weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs! It says, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves were thrown out"!!!
Does it say, "There will be X when you feel the fire of Hell"? NOPE!!!
Does it say, "You will weep and gnash your teeth for all eternity while in Hell"??? NOPE!!!

Irrelevant! Irrelevant! Irrelevant! Go read the definition of ekei which I posted and linked to, which you keep ignoring. "Ekei" only refers to location either far or near NOT time. You continue to try to reinterpret Greek with English grammar.

 

[Der Alte]

Relative to Hebrew & Greek scholars you are an amateur. If only the remarks by such matter, then any private opinion of yours is worthless. That includes your opinions that AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS are never defined as a finite age, epoch or duration. Lexicons oppose you in that regard. They also oppose your purely amateurish speculation that those 4 words never refer to a finite duration, except when used as hyperbole.
12 points re forever and ever being finite:

I have never stated my opinion. I quoted lexicons and all, 100%, of them define olam, ad, aion and aionios as eternal. Even when you quoted a lexicon from online it showed the definition 'everlasting" which you omitted because it didn't fit the UR agenda.

 

[Der Alte]

Wow. So you're saying that Jesus wasn't directly quoting the prophet Isaiah (it was probably a direct quote, but we don't know because it is recorded in a different language), but was actually quoting the writings in your Jewish encyclopedia?
This just keeps getting better.

Wow, you quoted me then deliberately misrepresented what I said. And for your info.. the Jews consider the intertestamental book Judith to be authoritative. Why don't you try to get my posts right once in a while?

I'm not sure, but,
"For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many."
sounds like judgment to me. The first time we see this motif, in Isaiah 34, it is hard to imagine this event as anything other than judgment day

Try responding to what I said. I said nothing about "judgement." I said where does Isaiah mention "hell?"

Isaiah 66:20
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD....
Isaiah 66:24
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Judith 16:17 "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
Mark ;47-48
(47) And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
(48) where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'​

 

[Der Alte]

The words quoted from the satanic book of Judith xvi. 17 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, they were inspired and written by the spirit of Devil, by whom was guided and possessed by Satan, in truth a demon. You are sowing here the tares of Devil, I would like that you have not fellowship with devils.
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils, Things like such tares will be burned with everlasting fire, the hell's fire, together with the author.

Just saying something is satanic does not make it so. Please provide evidence that Judith is satanic? Judith was and is considered authoritative by the Jews. When Jesus said "thrown into hell, where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:47-48, it is closer to what is written in Judith 16;17 than Isaiah 66:24.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Greek is an inflected language, Greek grammar does not rely on the position of a word in a sentence.

The inflection of a language does not mean the order of words doesn't matter. It doesn't mean a preposition at the beginning can magically point to a noun at the end. It means that the spelling of each individual word is not catered to the context.

"Ekei" only refers to location either far or near NOT time

Not time? Huh. I guess that means you can't use it to prove eternal conscious torment.

Wow, you quoted me then deliberately misrepresented what I said. And for your info.. the Jews consider the intertestamental book Judith to be authoritative. Why don't you try to get my posts right once in a while?

So you're "Judith" is or isn't part of the Jewish Encyclopedia?

Try responding to what I said. I said nothing about "judgement." I said where does Isaiah mention "hell?"

You don't seem to realize that Judgment day and Hell are essentially the same thing, as far as this is concerned.