Everyone who dies in the lake of fire. Yes. But the first death obviously isn't eternal because of the resurrection.So is everybody who dies being punished eternally?
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Everyone who dies in the lake of fire. Yes. But the first death obviously isn't eternal because of the resurrection.So is everybody who dies being punished eternally?
That is not what the post I was responding to said.Everyone who dies in the lake of fire. Yes. But the first death obviously isn't eternal because of the resurrection.
ekei isn't the entire phrase. "Ekei estai" is translated as "there will be". In Luke 15:7; 21:23, estai alone is translated as "there will be". In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as "there will be".And in support of my statement above here are the first 10 of 98 occurrences of ekei in the NT, excluding the wailing and gnashing verses. All refer to a specific place.
Because it is death and destruction. A lake of burning sulfur kills and destroys things.By annihilation I mean something more than physical “death.” If the “destruction””perishing” in the Bible means simply death why does God use a different word?
So ashes can't have a geographical location? Why do they need to be conscious in order to have a geographical location? Rocks exist in space. Are they conscious?The term "everlasting destruction" is only used once in the NT 1Thess 1:9. Notice "everlasting destruction" is modified “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” Something/someone that is destroyed cannot “be” from the presence of anything or anyone.
First, we need to define our terms. What do you mean by "death" (Jesus didn't use the word "fate", "death", judgment", or "punishment", so you're 100% in speculation territory)? Because we are told by a verse that speaks directly to these things that claims the punishment for sin is DEATH (Romans 6:23). So please define your terms.Twice Jesus mentions a punishment that is worse than death. In Matthew 18:6, Matthew 26:24. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
You're treading in dangerous waters. This of course isn't an argument from silence, but it is in the same neighborhood.Among the Jews in Jesus’ time there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment they called it both sheol and gehinnom. They believed that,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity.” Judith xvi. 17. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). So when Jesus taught “hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” What do you think they understood? They believed that there was a literal hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
Granted. Some things are figurative and others aren't. We have to use context clues and "common sense" to tell us whether or not we are dealing with figurative language or not. Obviously Jesus never meant that the people listening to Him were literally grains of NaCl. This is common sense. Likewise, we can use the context clues in Isaiah 34 to understand that "the smoke rises forever" and "their worm shall not die" should be taken figuratively. Because it also tells us that various mammals will later inhabit the land. Also, common sense tells us that a worm can't literally eat a person's body for all eternity (you can't take an infinite bite out of anything - it will run out.)It is thereby made clear that the land will not be burning forever, that instead, the text is speaking metaphorically.See my response immediately above. Yes there are more than 200 different figures of speech in the Bible. But one or two figures of speech does not make everything figurative..
OK, so he was saying that an earthly execution is also eternal in that the person will never come back to life in this age. He's making a distinction between flat out eternal destruction and destruction that is only eternal to the end of the age.That is not what the post I was responding to said.
Luk 15:7 there will be more rejoicing in heavenekei isn't the entire phrase. "Ekei estai" is translated as "there will be". In Luke 15:7; 21:23, estai alone is translated as "there will be". In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35".
Luke 15:7; 13:28, Matthew 13:42; 8:12; 24:51, are the only times we have the combination of Ekei estai.
In Luke 13:28, the verse begins with the phrase, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." It is a separate verse; it is a separate clause altogether. The ekei "there" can't
possibly refer to a specific place because no specific place has been mentioned at all!
Nonsense! You just grabbed a bunch of verses without even reading them. Where is the specific place in Luk 13:28 it is "outside the kingdom of God." Read the verse.Luke 13:28 - "And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out."
You really should read my posts and try to understand what I am saying. I did not say or imply that every occurrence of ekei was referring to fiery hell I said ekei always refers to a specific place. Try reading the definition of ekei in BDAG which I posted and linked to. In Greek the word ekei/there refers to a specific place it is never used as a nonspecific interjection as in English. I think I will just ignore the rest of this because you make similar errors throughout.This isn't even talking about a fiery place, and yet still uses the phrase ekei estai. And you're trying to tell me that by some wonder of grammar the "there" must point to the fiery furnace/hell?
...begin
In what universe is this on topic?Jared lived ............................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Wow. So you're saying that Jesus wasn't directly quoting the prophet Isaiah (it was probably a direct quote, but we don't know because it is recorded in a different language), but was actually quoting the writings in your Jewish encyclopedia?what Jesus said more closely followed a then current teaching of the Jews. N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.
I'm not sure, but,Please show me where Isaiah was referring to hell?
Notice how the preposition "in" is absent in the phrase, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? If the above simply stated, "There will be rejoicing," or, "There will be great distress," or, "There will be famines," then we wouldn't know where said things take place!!!Luk 15:7 there will be more rejoicing in heaven
Luk 21:23 There will be great distress in the land
Mat 24:7 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
"In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as 'there will be'."Luke 17:34; 17:35 2 Pet 2:1 The adverb ekei does not occur.
So you think the preposition at the very beginning of the statement is referring to the noun at the very end. Because I guess in magic land we can use prepositions to point to things that haven't already been established. And you're calling my argument nonsense.Where is the specific place in Luk 13:28 it is "outside the kingdom of God."
...Was Jesus quoting Isaiah when He said "thrown into hell where 'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched?'"
Granted. Some things are figurative and others aren't. We have to use context clues and "common sense" to tell us whether or not we are dealing with figurative language or not. Obviously Jesus never meant that the people listening to Him were literally grains of NaCl. This is common sense. Likewise, we can use the context clues in Isaiah 34 to understand that "the smoke rises forever" and "their worm shall not die" should be taken figuratively. Because it also tells us that various mammals will later inhabit the land. Also, common sense tells us that a worm can't literally eat a person's body for all eternity (you can't take an infinite bite out of anything - it will run out.)It is thereby made clear that the land will not be burning forever, that instead, the text is speaking metaphorically.
You can't just take those two short phrases out of that chapter and just flat out ignore the rest of the chapter. You have to take it in context.
Mark 9:47-48Here is Isaiah.
(47) And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
(48) where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Isaiah 66:20Please show me where Isaiah was referring to hell? Rather than quoting Isaiah, directly, what Jesus said more closely followed a then current teaching of the Jews. N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD....
Isaiah 66:24
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17...
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). As recorded in Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna.
N.b. scriptural references highlighted in blue.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"Judith xvi. 17.
Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible doesn't say it will not."
It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.
So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.
No I'm not the amateur here. AFAIK I'm the only person in this discussion who has actually studied both Hebrew and Greek
Tell you what amigo as soon as you show me a Greek grammar and/or lexicon which supports you then I will consider your opinion until then Bob Dylan..Notice how the preposition "in" is absent in the phrase, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? If the above simply stated, "There will be rejoicing," or, "There will be great distress," or, "There will be famines," then we wouldn't know where said things take place!!!
Irrelevant I was not discussing the phrase "there will be" I was discussing the word 'ekei" in Matt."In Matthew 24:7, Luke 17:34; 17:35, and 2 Peter 2:1, esontai is translated as 'there will be'."
Greek is an inflected language, Greek grammar does not rely on the position of a word in a sentence.So you think the preposition at the very beginning of the statement is referring to the noun at the very end. Because I guess in magic land we can use prepositions to point to things that haven't already been established. And you're calling my argument nonsense.
Irrelevant! Irrelevant! Irrelevant! Go read the definition of ekei which I posted and linked to, which you keep ignoring. "Ekei" only refers to location either far or near NOT time. You continue to try to reinterpret Greek with English grammar."'Depart from me!' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see what you missed, but you yourself were cast out."
So somehow the "there" is somehow, magically, in dream world pointing directly to Hell?
Wait a second... Shoot. This verse is actually telling us when the weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs! It says, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves were thrown out"!!!
Does it say, "There will be X when you feel the fire of Hell"? NOPE!!!
Does it say, "You will weep and gnash your teeth for all eternity while in Hell"??? NOPE!!!
I have never stated my opinion. I quoted lexicons and all, 100%, of them define olam, ad, aion and aionios as eternal. Even when you quoted a lexicon from online it showed the definition 'everlasting" which you omitted because it didn't fit the UR agenda.Relative to Hebrew & Greek scholars you are an amateur. If only the remarks by such matter, then any private opinion of yours is worthless. That includes your opinions that AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS are never defined as a finite age, epoch or duration. Lexicons oppose you in that regard. They also oppose your purely amateurish speculation that those 4 words never refer to a finite duration, except when used as hyperbole.
12 points re forever and ever being finite:
Wow, you quoted me then deliberately misrepresented what I said. And for your info.. the Jews consider the intertestamental book Judith to be authoritative. Why don't you try to get my posts right once in a while?Wow. So you're saying that Jesus wasn't directly quoting the prophet Isaiah (it was probably a direct quote, but we don't know because it is recorded in a different language), but was actually quoting the writings in your Jewish encyclopedia?
This just keeps getting better.
Try responding to what I said. I said nothing about "judgement." I said where does Isaiah mention "hell?"I'm not sure, but,
"For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many."
sounds like judgment to me. The first time we see this motif, in Isaiah 34, it is hard to imagine this event as anything other than judgment day
Just saying something is satanic does not make it so. Please provide evidence that Judith is satanic? Judith was and is considered authoritative by the Jews. When Jesus said "thrown into hell, where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:47-48, it is closer to what is written in Judith 16;17 than Isaiah 66:24.The words quoted from the satanic book of Judith xvi. 17 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, they were inspired and written by the spirit of Devil, by whom was guided and possessed by Satan, in truth a demon. You are sowing here the tares of Devil, I would like that you have not fellowship with devils.
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils, Things like such tares will be burned with everlasting fire, the hell's fire, together with the author.
The inflection of a language does not mean the order of words doesn't matter. It doesn't mean a preposition at the beginning can magically point to a noun at the end. It means that the spelling of each individual word is not catered to the context.Greek is an inflected language, Greek grammar does not rely on the position of a word in a sentence.
Not time? Huh. I guess that means you can't use it to prove eternal conscious torment."Ekei" only refers to location either far or near NOT time
So you're "Judith" is or isn't part of the Jewish Encyclopedia?Wow, you quoted me then deliberately misrepresented what I said. And for your info.. the Jews consider the intertestamental book Judith to be authoritative. Why don't you try to get my posts right once in a while?
You don't seem to realize that Judgment day and Hell are essentially the same thing, as far as this is concerned.Try responding to what I said. I said nothing about "judgement." I said where does Isaiah mention "hell?"