Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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I don't need a degree to post what multiple scholars support, that the words "no end" is how Scripture would have expressed - endless - punishment if that were its teaching. Since Scripture does not do so, endless punishment is a false teaching. You have provided nothing on this subject, whether your own amateur opinion, or anything from a scholar that opposes it. So the argument stands.
Wrong. If they believed the Scriptures & the LXX they evidently did believe God is endless, using both "no end" and AIDIOS:
Psa.102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have NO END
.
Let us see what you out-of-context proof text actually says.
Psalm 102:3
(3) For my days are consumed like smoke, and my bones are burned as an hearth.
Were David's bones ;literally bured as a hearth?
Psalm 102:12
(12) But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever;[olam] and thy remembrance unto all generations.
Notice in the same psalm, the psalmist also said God would endure "olam" So "olam" means the same thing as "no end" vs. 27. And not only does it says God will endure "olam" i.e. "no end" but it also says "unto all generations" So "olam,""no end," and "unto all generations" all refer to the same thing "eternal, everlasting." But when I quoted several verses where I said this proves that "olam" meant "eternal, everlasting" you said no it didn't. But your own proof text proves that it does.
Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Psalms 89:4
(4) Thy seed will I establish for ever, [olam] and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Psalms 100:5
(5) For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting;[olam] and his truth endureth to all generations.
Muraoka defines aidios as "everlasting". But for aionios his definitions are "1. lasting for very long, everlasting" & "2.having existed very long, long past, ancient" (p.19).
That is exactly what I said.











 
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DavidPT

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A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

destroy | Definition of destroy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Except when it comes to Matthew 10:28 though, destroy used in that verse is connected with forever. You being a Universalist though, I don't expect you to agree with that. And since destroy is connected with forever in Matthew 10:28, and that so is shall never be destroyed in Daniel 2:44 also connected with forever, only one of them can mean to exist forever.
 
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jovanovic

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So if you throw a fish into a bowl of water and it is OK, does that mean an ant won't drown if also thrown in?


Its effects are eternal. They shall never be undone. Just like in Sodom.


So you don't think that a public execution could be considered an eternal punishment? That the effects of that execution aren't eternal? That the execution is not eternal?


Um, so they do that before they die. This is really quite simple.


Why not? The Bible did.


.

angels are spirit and so is humans, the false prophet is a human btw. humans will be tortured just like the angels, why would they not? where in the bible does it say there will be no torment and torture in hell for humans?

So whats the point with having an enternal fire if everyone throw in it will die directly?

Why would god raise the dead to kill them again? How does that make sense? Nah, god raises the dead to send them to punishment, that punishment is torture in hell. if hell is death, then why dont he just let the dead rest? no need to wake up the dead to make them dead again.

that verse said that they would say that IN HELL. if humans will die when they are thrown in hell HOW CAN THEY WEEP AND GNASH THEIR TEETH WHEN THEY ARE INSIDE HELL FOREVER AND EVER? thats what that verse is saying ,it does not say that they will WEEP and GNASH their teeth BEFORE they are being thrown into hell.
 
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David7818

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  • Annihilationalism of people of the earth, pagan or not or other deities, young or not, is wrong, even if it's biblical. It's one thing to fight, that's fine. It's another to be wrong, whoever that may be. One day fighting should cease, and a utopia of only older people is weird or strange. Younger people help make the world and color it, even if that color is cooler or darker, red or brown or black. Just don't do too much.
 
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DavidPT

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A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

destroy | Definition of destroy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.


Destroy in this verse is the same Greek word used for destroy in Matthew 10:28. The sense in this verse is to kill. This shows that this Greek word can sometimes mean to kill. Of course though, to kill someone isn't the same thing as annihilation. Yet, if the sense for destroy in Matthew 10:28 is also to kill, how can that not add up to annihilation in that particular context? What is the logic in killing a soul if that soul never really dies? And if a soul dies, that being the 2nd death, how could it still be existing forever instead?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


but are not able to kill the soul. Obviously Jesus meant that men can kill the body, but that they can't also kill the soul. If there is no such thing as the killing of the soul, what was Jesus' reason for bringing up something impossible? But if there is such a thing as killing the soul, but that man can't do it, who would be able to do it then? God of course. And that's exactly what the next part of that verse tells us. It tells the who and the how.
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE Der Alter post #527]Exodus 3:2-6
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD [YHWH] saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


The angel is in a flame outside the bush, vs. 2, the voice of God comes from inside the bush, vs. 4.[/QUOTE]

No, it is not as you say. This angel of the Lord, in truth an Archangel, he appeared to Moses in a flame fire inside the bush and not outside as you say. Moses, yes, was aside.

By the way, this same angel, in truth an Archangel, a Prince of God, a worrier, he was later with Joshua, the guide of the people of Israel after Moses, as you can see reading in Joshua 5:13to15.

About this messenger, the Most High God and Almighty said to Moses: Exodus 23:20to23:
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions:
for MY NAME is IN him. What name? Ex.3:v.15 - And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my NAME for ever, . . .
22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak (by the Angel); then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. (Yea, he is a worrier, a Prince of the Lord, and he is whom does the wars of the Lord).

Comparing what you are saying above with what was said by Stephen (Acts 7:30-33), Stephen said what is true, you not.

What name? [YHWH]? No, what you wrote is not true. What you wrote between [brackets] is an invention of man, and you have believed in mere man, instead Scriptures. It was not and is not the NAME of the Lord, this explains the why you did write it between brackets, because is not true, but a ficticious name, a false name of God, thats a nickname fore sure.
By the way,
JESUS said in His pray to the Father: "I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:" Answer me: What was the NAME of the Father, manisfested by JESUS unto the men the Father gave to Him out of the world?
 
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Oseas

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Oseas said:
Daniel 12:v.2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


But the bible say that people will be tortured in hell forever, how can someome who is dead be tortured for ever?


They will be resurrected first.

[QUOTE jovanovic, post #536]
Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes. There is a second death. Rev. 21:v.8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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jovanovic

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Oseas said:
Daniel 12:v.2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




They will be resurrected first.

[QUOTE jovanovic, post #536]
Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes. There is a second death. Rev. 21:v.8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

why resurrected dead people to kill them again? lmao.
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE Der Alter, post #527]
Nothing in scripture says any of this.. [/QUOTE]

That which you do not understand now, will understand latter, as it is written:

1 Cor.2:13to15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yea, that which you do not understand now, you will understand latter. Be prepared.
 
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Oseas

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why resurrected dead people to kill them again? lmao.

In fulfilment all that was written in the prophecies. For example, Dan.12:v.2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (believers and unbelievers) , some to everlasting life (true believers) , and some to shame and everlasting contempt (multitudes which were not saved, the sons of Devil).


Meditate in this: JESUS left very very clear: John 5:26to30
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given Him authority to execute Judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for
the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I Judge: and my Judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 
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ClementofA

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Except when it comes to Matthew 10:28 though, destroy used in that verse is connected with forever. You being a Universalist though, I don't expect you to agree with that. And since destroy is connected with forever in Matthew 10:28, and that so is shall never be destroyed in Daniel 2:44 also connected with forever, only one of them can mean to exist forever.

I don't see the word "forever" in any translation of Mt.10:28.

Post # 538 addressed Daniel 2:44 here:

Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical
 
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ClementofA

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Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.


Destroy in this verse is the same Greek word used for destroy in Matthew 10:28. The sense in this verse is to kill. This shows that this Greek word can sometimes mean to kill. Of course though, to kill someone isn't the same thing as annihilation. Yet, if the sense for destroy in Matthew 10:28 is also to kill, how can that not add up to annihilation in that particular context? What is the logic in killing a soul if that soul never really dies? And if a soul dies, that being the 2nd death, how could it still be existing forever instead?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


but are not able to kill the soul. Obviously Jesus meant that men can kill the body, but that they can't also kill the soul. If there is no such thing as the killing of the soul, what was Jesus' reason for bringing up something impossible? But if there is such a thing as killing the soul, but that man can't do it, who would be able to do it then? God of course. And that's exactly what the next part of that verse tells us. It tells the who and the how.

Of course though, to kill someone isn't the same thing as annihilation. Yet, if the sense for destroy in Matthew 10:28 is also to kill, how can that not add up to annihilation in that particular context?

In the same way Romans 7:11 (which uses the word "kill" for killing a person) doesn't "add up to annihilation" of the person:

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (Rom.7:11).

Sin "killed" him, but he wasn't annihilated. Thus also God can kill or destroy one without annihilating that one. Why would Love Omnipotent want to annihilate anyone. He wills that all mankind be saved, has ransomed all (1 Tim.2:4-6), & is the Savior of all (1 Tim.4:10). His judgements, anger and wrath are salvific.

What is the logic in killing a soul if that soul never really dies?

To bring a soul to repentance & salvation. To show it what it is like to be separated from God's will, mercy & love.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

And if a soul dies, that being the 2nd death, how could it still be existing forever instead?

The second death could refer to a second physical death like their first physical death. Or if physical death were the first death, and soul/spiritual death the second death, then the second death/lake of fire could conceivably refer to a state/place where such are residing. Not what happens to them there. There they reside and are tormented literally "into the eons of the eons" (mistranslated by pro endless punishment bible versions as "for ever and ever").

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Jordan Henshaw

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angels are spirit and so is humans, the false prophet is a human btw. humans will be tortured just like the angels, why would they not? where in the bible does it say there will be no torment and torture in hell for humans?
We don't know if the false prophet is a human. Like literally everything else in the book of Revelation, it is probably a symbol. I'm not sure what you mean by saying humans and angels are "spirit". Why wouldn't a 5 year old kid who was murdered and never heard the name Jesus while on earth suffer the same fate as an angel who hated God and waged war against him for thousands of years? Because our God is a JUST God.

Luke 12:47-48 - "That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows."

So whats the point with having an enternal fire if everyone throw in it will die directly?
Ask the Sodomites. Their city is literally still in ashes. It's still there. It hasn't been rebuilt in thousands of years, and never will be. Eternal fire.

Here is Isaiah speaking of Judgment Day. He gives a very clear picture of an eternal type of fire that destroys eternally. But because owls and raven, hedgehogs and hawks are able to possess it, the land certainly doesn't literally burn forever:

Isaiah 34 - "It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. 11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness."

Why would god raise the dead to kill them again? How does that make sense? Nah, god raises the dead to send them to punishment, that punishment is torture in hell. if hell is death, then why dont he just let the dead rest? no need to wake up the dead to make them dead again.
Because he is a JUST God. He will repay. He will do justice.

Do you not think that Hitler deserves to be punished for the millions of people he murdered while on earth? How could a God of justice refrain from punishing him?

Obviously God must punish the evil for the evil they have done. That should be a given.

But it would be foolish to assume that any punishment must be eternal conscious torment. It is much more biblical and reasonable to accept that Romans 6:23 reads that the punishment for sin is a second death in the lake of fire.

that verse said that they would say that IN HELL. if humans will die when they are thrown in hell HOW CAN THEY WEEP AND GNASH THEIR TEETH WHEN THEY ARE INSIDE HELL FOREVER AND EVER? thats what that verse is saying ,it does not say that they will WEEP and GNASH their teeth BEFORE they are being thrown into hell.
Um. They do that when they are in hell. You don't need to live forever in hell to weep and gnash your teeth. You just need to suffer there for enough time to weep and gnash your teeth.

Also, the grammar in Greek doesn't make it clear whether or not the weeping happens inside or outside the furnace. It probably happens outside because weeping and gnashing of teeth is not a response to pain, but instead to anger and remorse, it is likely the weeping and gnashing of teeth happens shortly before. But either way, this doesn't in the slightest refute Annihilationism. This is silly.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Destroy in this verse is the same Greek word used for destroy in Matthew 10:28. The sense in this verse is to kill. This shows that this Greek word can sometimes mean to kill. Of course though, to kill someone isn't the same thing as annihilation. Yet, if the sense for destroy in Matthew 10:28 is also to kill, how can that not add up to annihilation in that particular context? What is the logic in killing a soul if that soul never really dies? And if a soul dies, that being the 2nd death, how could it still be existing forever instead?
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
but are not able to kill the soul. Obviously Jesus meant that men can kill the body, but that they can't also kill the soul. If there is no such thing as the killing of the soul, what was Jesus' reason for bringing up something impossible? But if there is such a thing as killing the soul, but that man can't do it, who would be able to do it then? God of course. And that's exactly what the next part of that verse tells us. It tells the who and the how.
Here is how Luke relates this event. No destruction.
Luke 12:4-5
(4) And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
(5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
 
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Oseas

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[QUOTE ClementofA]
That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:
Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.
Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.
Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.[/QUOTE]

At this moment there are two types of kings on earth:

1 - Kings (include governments) that are dominated and held by the power of the Devil on the top and dominion of the nations, to destroy the earth and its inhabitants. These satanic kings will be cast into the fire of hell now in this millennium, the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day.

2 - Kings who serve the Lord God because they were made by God and the Devil have no power over them. Rev. 1: v.6 - 6 And hath made us KINGS and PRIESTS unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev.5: 10-10 And hast made us unto our God KINGS and PRIESTS: and we shall REIGN on the EARTH.

Rev.20: v.6 - 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath in power, but they WILL be PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN with Him a thousand years .(that is in this seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millenium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

There will weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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DavidPT

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why resurrected dead people to kill them again? lmao.


God did say that there would be judgment after the first death. Would make Him a liar if He didn't raise anyone to be judged after they had died. So at least now we know why lost dead people live again. It would be the same as in this age, in a court of law where the accused are being tried for murder and that the judgment is death. Why have a trial if they are going to kill them? They have a trial in order to determine what is to become of them. In the same way, this is what God does as well after the lost dead have been raised to life again in order to be judged and sentenced. Perhaps you should keep your laughing at these things to yourself, since it's apparent to some of us that you lack proper understanding of some of these things.
 
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DavidPT

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Thus also God can kill or destroy one without annihilating that one. Why would Love Omnipotent want to annihilate anyone. He wills that all mankind be saved, has ransomed all (1 Tim.2:4-6), & is the Savior of all (1 Tim.4:10). His judgements, anger and wrath are salvific.


I fully realize you are a Universalist, but that aside for a moment. Suppose the only two options were ECT and annihilation. Which of the two would be the more humane thing for God to do to humans cast into the LOF? If you had loved ones cast into the LOF, and that their fate was going to be one of these two, which would you rather it be for them? Keeping in mind, Universalism aside for a moment. By answering this, this doesn't mean you have to agree with this. But the point I'm making, between those two options, one of them is beyond extreme and one isn't, when comparing to one another.

As to Universalism, I wish that was an option, but I don't see it being one. I would have no problem with it being so if it were so. There is no one that I hate that bad that I wish them to burn in hell forever, or to even be annihilated, another option. But if these are the only two options, why would I hope that the Bible is teaching the former option and not the latter option instead?
 
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Der Alte

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But it would be foolish to assume that any punishment must be eternal conscious torment. It is much more biblical and reasonable to accept that Romans 6:23 reads that the punishment for sin is a second death in the lake of fire.
Paul used the word for second three times, 2 Corinthians 13:2, 2 Corinthians 1:15, 1 Corinthians 15:47. If Paul meant "second" in Rom 6:23 why didn't he say "second?" Or are we just twisting scripture to make it support our assumptions/presuppositions?
Um. They do that when they are in hell. You don't need to live forever in hell to weep and gnash your teeth. You just need to suffer there for enough time to weep and gnash your teeth.
Also, the grammar in Greek doesn't make it clear whether or not the weeping happens inside or outside the furnace. It probably happens outside because weeping and gnashing of teeth is not a response to pain, but instead to anger and remorse, it is likely the weeping and gnashing of teeth happens shortly before. But either way, this doesn't in the slightest refute Annihilationism. This is silly.
How many semesters of koine Greek do you have? The Greek most certainly does support wailing and gnashing of teeth after being cast into the fiery furnace

Matthew 13:41-42
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there [ἐκεῖ/ekei] shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Note the "noun" ἐκεῖ/ekei, "there" follows and modifies "furnace of fire." The wailing and gnashing of teeth happens in the "furnace of fire." But I can't find where Jesus said the wailing and gnashing would end.
 
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