Womens roles in the church

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

read my post again, they can speak in a certain way as speaking in Christ in prophecy, revelation, testimony, prayer and song in the spirit

What isn't law about that? Did Paul teach law or grace? Or partial law for some and grace for others? Or a mishmash of both?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If your going to bottom line anything "women can't teach" then first you need to bottom line Paul's teaching on law and grace.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What isn't law about that? Did Paul teach law or grace? Or partial law for some and grace for others? Or a mishmash of both?

whatever Paul wrote was the "commandments of the Lord" for the church given by the Spirit. Unless he specifically said he didn't write by commandment, which he only did a few times. Peter said that Paul wrote scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:2
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."

I believe that God speaks to the hearts of all believers, but often some don't hear and are either ignorant or unlearned or weak in faith etc. So God spoke through the body in men such as Paul and peter and John etc and all ministers , elders etc. he also speaks through every part in different ways. This speaking that Paul did to other believers as he spoke in Christ was by the Spirit, not under the outward law as written in stones. Paul said he was a minister of the spirit not of the letter. The words he spoke were not the words of men but the word of God, that effectually worketh in those who believe.

God still commands things to his children. But as new creations in Christ and as we live in the spirit God makes us able to do such things as we abide in him and walk after the spirit.

Because we are still living in the world and gather together there are certain things for such gatherings that God has set. This is God's order for our assembly. This order allows God to move freely among us in peace and truth and power.

The word of God's grace that works in believers is able to build them up. Paul spoke forth this word of God's grace and all the commands of Jesus and the New testament are in and from this grace.

either way, untll you see more of the reasons for God's word and commandments in the New testament in scripture to the church, our only course is to obey the truth of the Spirit for us.

and as Paul said

"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

but sadly many can find some preacher or teacher who fights against God's commands here and they go to where men or women speak what they want to hear . But this wont profit any in the end.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If your going to bottom line anything "women can't teach" then first you need to bottom line Paul's teaching on law and grace.

To me the bottom line is verses like this

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."(1 Timothy 2:12 KJV)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

To me the bottom line is verses like this

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."(1 Timothy 2:12 KJV)

Please refer me to the law that Paul is referring to from the OT. Since there isn't one then where did Paul say that Jesus commanded it? Paul's teaching is to unravel the mystery of Christ and the church. Bottom line.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please refer me to the law that Paul is referring to from the OT. Since there isn't one then where did Paul say that Jesus commanded it? Paul's teaching is to unravel the mystery of Christ and the church. Bottom line.

When Paul spoke such things to the church he spoke the truth in Christ as he said in 1 Timothy 2:7. But he also said things like this

1 Thessalonians 4:2
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

When Paul spoke such things to the church he spoke the truth in Christ as he said in 1 Timothy 2:7. But he also said things like this

1 Thessalonians 4:2
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."

He doesn't lie when it's taken to the spiritual instead of the letter. Master builder that he was.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please refer me to the law that Paul is referring to from the OT. Since there isn't one then where did Paul say that Jesus commanded it? Paul's teaching is to unravel the mystery of Christ and the church. Bottom line.

There are verses like this in the OT

“16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. “(Genesis 3:16)

do women, even Christian women, still have pain in childbirth?

And Paul said that a man should rule well his own house. He never spoke of a woman ruling her own house over her husband

 

[LoveofTruth]

If your going to bottom line anything "women can't teach" then first you need to bottom line Paul's teaching on law and grace.

You cannot hide from God's commands for the church by trying to say "I am under grace not law". Gods grace gave forth such commands for the church.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There are verses like this in the OT

“16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. “(Genesis 3:16)

do women, even Christian women, still have pain in childbirth?

And Paul said that a man should rule well his own house. He never spoke of a woman ruling her own house over her husband

Paul was travailing himself in birth pangs. Spiritual adultery is what it is. Nuff said.

 

[Archivist]

and as far as what Paul wrote being for all the churches everywhere, here is what Paul said

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"

Notice, with all in every place. And we read

"33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:33-38)

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."

1 Corinthians 7:17
But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

The question of the role of women in the church is one upon which Christians can and do disagree. You are, of course, entitled to you own interpretation of Scripture, but I and many others have differing views. It was a woman who our Lord and Savior chose to be the first person to preach the Good News of His resurrection. Paul refers to Phoebe as a church deacon (diakonos); Paul introduced her as his emissary to the church in Rome. Priscilla traveled as a missionary and tutored Apollos; Paul mentions her before her husband. Junia is listed as being "of note among the apostles."

Again, you are entitled to your own interpretation of Scripture. If you feel the way you do then I would suggest that you not join a denomination that ordains women.

 

[Sam91]

I agree in principle but only in part, and not always. I was once pondering after praying and I feel like it was probably from God, seeing as I had a variety of women placed in my head and I had to sift through to understand the application.

It was Sapphira

Delilah

Abigail- Nabal's wife and then David's.

Three obscure characters. I don't think I would have naturally thought of them. But it occured to me that they are three different women and how they acted was different. Abigail didn't follow her husband when he acted wrongly and God dealt with him. Sapphira sinned in repeating her husbands lie and died for it.

Just because someone is a man, it doesn't make him right. Submitting to a man when he sins is also a sin.

 

[thesunisout]

There is a reason that the Lord chose men to be apostles, exclusively. If women were supposed to be leaders in the church, why didn't the Lord choose any women to be apostles? Women aren't not supposed to teach or have authority over a man, that is clear from scripture.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I agree in principle but only in part, and not always. I was once pondering after praying and I feel like it was probably from God, seeing as I had a variety of women placed in my head and I had to sift through to understand the application.

It was Sapphira

Delilah

Abigail- Nabal's wife and then David's.

Three obscure characters. I don't think I would have naturally thought of them. But it occured to me that they are three different women and how they acted was different. Abigail didn't follow her husband when he acted wrongly and God dealt with him. Sapphira sinned in repeating her husbands lie and died for it.

Just because someone is a man, it doesn't make him right. Submitting to a man when he sins is also a sin.

Read what I wrote again and you will see that I encourage godly women to fulfill their roles in every aspect but in the church there are certain things they can and cannot do as scripture clearly says.

I could list many godly women used of God through scripture and praise God for them.

But they must not teach over men nor usurp the authority over the man or dominate over them. This is true of all women single or married in the church gatherings.

 

[Archivist]

There is a reason that the Lord chose men to be apostles, exclusively. If women were supposed to be leaders in the church, why didn't the Lord choose any women to be apostles? Women aren't not supposed to teach or have authority over a man, that is clear from scripture.

Then why did Priscilla teach Apollos? Why was it that our Lord and Savior chose a woman to be the first person to preach the Good News of His resurrection?

 

[Blade]

Like so many....its read and then interpreted a PERSONAL way. We HAVE to look at HOW it was back then. Its NOT the same now. Even Jesus said.. the children's bread is not for the dogs. Is that really how GOD feels about the rest of the world today?

Hey there are still women believers today that KNOW they HAVE to keep there head covered. And some think they are more blessed that way. PRAISE GOD. Your talking about people that lived SO different then we do today. Then trying to apply they way they did it THEN to today. He was writing to THEM.

Sorry..it just gets silly. Well Christian or not.. just what could WOMEN do BACK then? Could they just stand up and SPEAK? Go up and read? On and on. Have to apply ALL of the word. How does Christ TREAT the Church? Is that how you treat your wife? NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Some of the greatest teachers to prophets were WOMEN! Its ok.. your not the 1st to take this view. We can take up deadly things and they wont hurt us. What do some do with that verse?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But they must not teach over men nor usurp the authority over tge man or dominate over them. This is true of all women single or married in the church gatherings.

Define this please. Women can teach women, does that mean they can only display studies on women's forums so as not to offend men should the men's eyes behold their nakedness? It seems to me that Jesus Christ is our covering.

 

[Strong in Him]

There is a reason that the Lord chose men to be apostles, exclusively. If women were supposed to be leaders in the church, why didn't the Lord choose any women to be apostles?

If Gentiles were supposed to be leaders in the church, why didn't the Lord choose any Gentiles to be apostles?

Women aren't not supposed to teach or have authority over a man, that is clear from scripture.

No it isn't; that is the whole point.
If it was clear, we would not have these endless debates, and no church would ordain women - unless you are suggesting that clergy, and learned, intelligent, spiritual bishops have wilfully chosen to ignore Scripture and do it anyway.

All Christians - God's children - have a right, and duty, to do whatever their Father calls them to do. It doesn't matter if men are in "women's" roles, or vice versa. It is God who calls and appoints us to serve him.
In the OT, Deborah was judge over the whole nation; men went to her for advice and counsel.
Huldah was a prophet; men chose to consult her when they wanted a word from God.

 

[Sam91]

Read what I wrote again and you will see that I encourage godly women to fulfill their roles in every aspect but in the church there are certain things they can and cannot do as scripture clearly says.

I could list many godly women used of God through scripture and praise God for them.

But they must not teach over men nor usurp the authority over tge man or dominate over them. This is true of all women single or married in the church gatherings.

In my shorter and much more concise post I said I agree in principle but not always with what you wrote.

I agree more fully with the Bible. Which has put women in roles over men occasionally. Deborah the judge.

I actually side with the Bible over women not leading the Church or say teaching in seminary. Or submitting to the husband if he is a good Chriatian man. After all the influence of progesterone does influence the way women see the world, even if we hardly know it ourselves until it lowers in the system. Men can be a lot more steady in there thinking.

But women need to be taught to not be submissive when under spiritual or other abuse for example. It is something which gets missed out. Letting others continue in sin against God by submitting isn't love it is enabling and that was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Sam91]

If Gentiles were supposed to be leaders in the church, why didn't the Lord choose any Gentiles to be apostles?


No it isn't; that is the whole point.
If it was clear, we would not have these endless debates, and no church would ordain women - unless you are suggesting that clergy, and learned, intelligent, spiritual bishops have wilfully chosen to ignore Scripture and do it anyway.

All Christians - God's children - have a right, and duty, to do whatever their Father calls them to do. It doesn't matter if men are in "women's" roles, or vice versa. It is God who calls and appoints us to serve him.
In the OT, Deborah was judge over the whole nation; men went to her for advice and counsel.
Huldah was a prophet; men chose to consult her when they wanted a word from God.

I just also referenced Deborah too after reading Judges 1-6 tonight