Revelation in chart form

[Marvin Knox]

The point is that your claim about the tribulation period being the same as the wrath of God is shown to be in error.
.

Not at all.

Rev. 6:17 indicates that by the breaking of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun. It furthers indicates in Rev. 15:1 that the bowl judgments will complete God’s wrath.

The 7th bowl is poured out at the end of Rev. 16, before the 2nd Coming. And we must note that the Great Tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s 70th Week and is the time during which the Bowl judgments are poured out.

So we must all agree that the Wrath of God covers just about all of Daniel’s 70th Week, whereas the Great Tribulation is just the last half.

We are not destined for wrath just as the scriptures tell us and we are given a way to escape that coming wrath.

Namely - be in the right relationship which comes through a trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Our belief in the pre tribulation rapture of the church comes through a systematic study of the scriptures as a whole and not from any one scripture passage such as is found in 1st Thessalonians or in 1 Corinthians.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The scripture "Clearly Teaches" .................................
No pre-trib rapture Marv...........

Now - as to my very direct and specific questions to you - please answer them forthrightly or we will assume you have something to hide. I will not play these games with you forever.

It serves no good for you to tell us over and over again that you do not believe in the rapture of the church before God's wrath upon the earth. We already know where you stand. The question is - why are you so entrenched in that position? (I.e. is there a reason beyond that you happen not to see the raprure in the scriptures.)

This shouldn't be difficult for you to show us - if you have nothing to hide.

Come clean with us about your doctrines concerning exactly when this mysterious "last day" will occur and what your view is of salvation by grace alone apart from works forever hold your peace.

 

[BABerean2]

Not at all.

Rev. 6:17 indicates that by the breaking of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun. It furthers indicates in Rev. 15:1 that the bowl judgments will complete God’s wrath.

The 7th bowl is poured out at the end of Rev. 16, before the 2nd Coming. And we must note that the Great Tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s 70th Week and is the time during which the Bowl judgments are poured out.

So we must all agree that the Wrath of God covers just about all of Daniel’s 70th Week, whereas the Great Tribulation is just the last half.

We are not destined for wrath just as the scriptures tell us and we are given a way to escape that coming wrath.

Namely - be in the right relationship which comes through a trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Our belief in the pre tribulation rapture of the church comes through a systematic study of the scriptures as a whole and not from any one scripture passage such as is found in 1st Thessalonians or in 1 Corinthians.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
Therefore, the 70th week of Daniel occurred during the first century.
The angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in the 490 year prophecy.

This is confirmed by the summary of Daniel 9:24 being fulfilled in Hebrews 10:16-18, and Acts 10:38.

Wrath is found at the end of Revelation chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
They would not be hiding unless the Lamb is present at this point in time.
The same signs in the sun, moon, and stars are found in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation chapter 6.
Therefore, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ.

Since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19, we know the book is not in chronological order.


God's wrath is poured out at the Second Coming of Christ.

.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Your acceptance of the False messiah will lead you into the lake of fire because you accepted him and rejected the True Messiah who died to pay your debt for the wage of sins is death , so now you will pay the wages of sin on your own -unless you repent and choose to serve the True Messiah -

Are you talking to me in the statement above?

.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
Therefore, the 70th week of Daniel occurred during the first century.
The angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in the 490 year prophecy.

This is confirmed by the summary of Daniel 9:24 being fulfilled in Hebrews 10:16-18, and Acts 10:38.

Wrath is found at the end of Revelation chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
They would not be hiding unless the Lamb is present at this point in time.
The same signs in the sun, moon, and stars are found in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation chapter 6.
Therefore, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ.

Since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19, we know the book is not in chronological order.

Again I say -
Rev. 6:17 indicates that by the breaking of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun. It furthers indicates in Rev. 15:1 that the bowl judgments will complete God’s wrath.

The 7th bowl is poured out at the end of Rev. 16, before the 2nd Coming. And we must note that the Great Tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s 70th Week and is the time during which the Bowl judgments are poured out.

So we must all agree that the Wrath of God covers just about all of Daniel’s 70th Week, whereas the Great Tribulation is just the last half.

We are not destined for wrath just as the scriptures tell us and we are given a way to escape that coming wrath.

Namely - be in the right relationship which comes through a trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Our belief in the pre tribulation rapture of the church comes through a systematic study of the scriptures as a whole and not from any one scripture passage such as is found in 1st Thessalonians or in 1 Corinthians.

The book of Revelation is exactly that. It is a book which shows the Church what will happen in the end of days. What will happen is that the wrath of God will be visited on the earth for an number of years in various physical tribulations and various spiritual temptations.

The church is said to be able to escape those various manifestation of the wrath of God and are told to pray and believe by faith that we will so escape them. I don't plan to be here for them and I have no idea why you find it so repugnant that we could aspire to escape them via the promised rapture.

 

[seventysevens]

Are you talking to me in the statement above?

.

usage of words 'you and your' is not toward you personally - they are used in the manner that scripture uses these words

Once again you have shown that you see only that which you prefer to see when you read

It this something you were not able to understand ?
It was in the same post you are speaking of - just as your misunderstandings of the scripture ,you did not understand something as simple as this

It is most apparent that you don't really think about what you are reading

 

[Truth7t7]

Not at all.

Rev. 6:17 indicates that by the breaking of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun. It furthers indicates in Rev. 15:1 that the bowl judgments will complete God’s wrath.

The 7th bowl is poured out at the end of Rev. 16, before the 2nd Coming. And we must note that the Great Tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s 70th Week and is the time during which the Bowl judgments are poured out.

So we must all agree that the Wrath of God covers just about all of Daniel’s 70th Week, whereas the Great Tribulation is just the last half.

We are not destined for wrath just as the scriptures tell us and we are given a way to escape that coming wrath.

Namely - be in the right relationship which comes through a trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Our belief in the pre tribulation rapture of the church comes through a systematic study of the scriptures as a whole and not from any one scripture passage such as is found in 1st Thessalonians or in 1 Corinthians.

Marv you can talk about a pre-trib rapture, but this is found no place in scripture.

You can't even hint at this teaching being found.

 

[Truth7t7]

Now - as to my very direct and specific questions to you - please answer them forthrightly or we will assume you have something to hide. I will not play these games with you forever.

It serves no good for you to tell us over and over again that you do not believe in the rapture of the church before God's wrath upon the earth. We already know where you stand. The question is - why are you so entrenched in that position? (I.e. is there a reason beyond that you happen not to see the raprure in the scriptures.)

This shouldn't be difficult for you to show us - if you have nothing to hide.

Come clean with us about your doctrines concerning exactly when this mysterious "last day" will occur and what your view is of salvation by grace alone apart from works forever hold your peace.

There is your Last day Marv, at the future second coming of Jesus Christ.

Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught he would return in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present, as Jesus sits on a throne watching mortal humans dying around him.

Verses 31-32 Jesus Returns with the angels, the nations are gathered for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

"ETERNITY BEGINS"!

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[seventysevens]

Marv you can talk about a pre-trib rapture, but this is found no place in scripture.

You can't even hint at this teaching being found.

Since you can't see it and refuse to learn about it why do you persist to want to talk about it?
you don't have to believe it if you don't want to

 

[Truth7t7]

Now - as to my very direct and specific questions to you - please answer them forthrightly or we will assume you have something to hide. I will not play these games with you forever.

It serves no good for you to tell us over and over again that you do not believe in the rapture of the church before God's wrath upon the earth. We already know where you stand. The question is - why are you so entrenched in that position? (I.e. is there a reason beyond that you happen not to see the raprure in the scriptures.)

This shouldn't be difficult for you to show us - if you have nothing to hide.

Come clean with us about your doctrines concerning exactly when this mysterious "last day" will occur and what your view is of salvation by grace alone apart from works forever hold your peace.

There is your "Last Day" The End Marv, at the future second coming of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Quasar92]

Obviously there is a difference between gossip and facts. If you believe what I have written regarding Scofield is gossip and untrue, provide evidence indicating otherwise. Do your own research.

My reference to gossip pertains to the denigration of others, destroying their reputation and character, whether they are guilty or not. Especially when they are not here to defend themselves. Jesus once said, "let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone," at a woman they had accused of adultery.

Research has nothing to do with it. Capiche?!


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Once again you have shown that you see only that which you prefer to see when you read

It this something you were not able to understand ?
It was in the same post you are speaking of - just as your misunderstandings of the scripture ,you did not understand something as simple as this

It is most apparent that you don't really think about what you are reading

You are correct.

If I do not agree with you, there is obviously something wrong with me.

.

 

[BABerean2]

So we must all agree that the Wrath of God covers just about all of Daniel’s 70th Week, whereas the Great Tribulation is just the last half.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[Truth7t7]

My reference to gossip pertains to the denigration of others, destroying their reputation and character, whether they are guilty or not. Especially when they are not here to defend themselves. Jesus once said, "let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone," at a woman they had accused of adultery.

Research has nothing to do with it. Capiche?!


Quasar92

Quasar it is very important to understand that C.I Scofield is a major foundation and pillar in dispensationalism.

His 1909 reference notes and bible were the greatest world influence in planting the dispensational teachings.

C.I. Scofield is instrumental in the foundations of Dallas Theological Seminary, as Lewis S. Chafee it's founder was a disciple of Scofield.

It' important to know that Scofield abandoned his wife Leotine and daughters, ran off to Dallas, and married a young girl 17 years younger in his Sunday school class named Hettie Van Wart, his church never was aware he was married.

It's very important to know foundations of religious beliefs and teachings.

Should we keep silent the names of Herbert W. Armstrong, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, L. Ron Hubbard also?

 

[seventysevens]

You are correct.
.

Yep
You don't seem to handle it well when you are wrong

 

[Quasar92]

T

Thank you for informing us of your own research. In my opinion, the false rapture teaching was introduced and promoted by Zionists/Freemasons in order to deceive the church. The Lotus Club to which you referenced was/is composed of Freemasons. On pgs. 14-15 of "A Brief History of the Lotus Club, Cornell University Library, we find this quote:
There were now many distinguished names on
the roll of membership. The parlors of the modest
house on Irving Place on the occasions of enter-
tainments were crowded with men whose presence
would lend distinction to any company. The club
house had become the common meeting ground in
the city for journalists, actors, artists and authors.
Distinguished foreigners and non-resident Ameri-
cans were welcomed to its privileges and courte-
sies. There was a prevalent Freemasonry and
camaraderie which made every one who entered
its hospitable doors at home ; and with all the rol-
licking humor and banter, there were seldom any
breaches of the rules of good fellowship and good
manners.
Full text of "A brief history of the Lotos Club"

After Scofield was introduced to the club, he traveled to Europe where he met with Henry Frowde, publisher of the Oxford University Press who later published the Scofield Bible. Where did Scofield who was not a rich man get his money to travel to Europe? His connections in the Lotus Club? Frowde was a member of the Exclusive Brethren which Scofield founded after his departure from the Plymouth (Open) Brethren.
The Scofield Bible--The Book That Made Zionists of America’s Evangelical Christians - WRMEA

The following is the Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church that refute your denial of it:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar02

 

[Choose Wisely]

Yep
You don't seem to handle it well when you are wrong

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. BAberean2 is proved wrong over and over and over again. I thought the dude was a girl because I have never seen a man be proven wrong so many times and get up again and again and again. Only a girl could be that tough or illogical. If I was in a fight, I'd want him on my side because even if he took a whipping he would get up and be ready for round 1124. The man has the heart of a champion. Now if he could only admit when he was obviously wrong.......he would get somewhere. As it is....he makes no progress.

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar it is very important to understand that C.I Scofield is a major foundation and pillar in dispensationalism.

His 1909 reference notes and bible were the greatest world influence in planting the dispensational teachings.

C.I. Scofield is instrumental in the foundations of Dallas Theological Seminary, as Lewis S. Chafee it's founder was a disciple of Scofield.

It' important to know that Scofield abandoned his wife Leotine and daughters, ran off to Dallas, and married a young girl 17 years younger in his Sunday school class named Hettie Van Wart, his church never was aware he was married.

It's very important to know foundations of religious beliefs and teachings.

Should we keep silent the names of Herbert W. Armstrong, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, L. Ron Hubbard also?

FYI, I went to Bible College before you were born. By what authority do you claim, to judge others? And why are you engaging in off subject issues? As I recall, the Lord was clear about not judging others, lest you be judged, did He not?

He also said, for whoever has not sinned, let him cast the first stone at the adulterous woman, if my memory serve me correctly. Do you enjoy gossiping?


Quasar92

 

[seventysevens]

His response was very immature , which is why he does not handle well being wrong, it takes much more than just getting up again to be considered handling it well

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. BAberean2 is proved wrong over and over and over again. I thought the dude was a girl because I have never seen a man be proven wrong so many times and get up again and again and again. Only a girl could be that tough or illogical. If I was in a fight, I'd want him on my side because even if he took a whipping he would get up and be ready for round 1124. The man has the heart of a champion. Now if he could only admit when he was obviously wrong.......he would get somewhere. As it is....he makes no progress.

 

[Truth7t7]

FYI, I went to Bible College before you were born. By what authority do you claim, to judge others? And why are you engaging in off subject issues? As I recall, the Lord was clear about not judging others, lest you be judged, did He not?

He also said, for whoever has not sinned, let him cast the first stone at the adulterous woman, if my memory serve me correctly. Do you enjoy gossiping?


Quasar92

No gossip, a pure fact!

Ole Scofield is buried next to Hettie Van Wart, in Flushing New York.

He remained married to Hettie, his Sunday school student, 17 years younger, to the grave, while his wife Leotine and daughters lived.

He didn't separate from the Adulterous relationship like the woman before Jesus.

Find a grave, C.I. Scofield

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921) - Find A...