Revelation in chart form

[Marvin Knox]

Thanks for your response, waiting for Marv to respond.

I already have - in great and nuanced detail in posts 109 and 112.

Read these quotes for starters and then perhaps reread my entire posts if you have time.

They could well be the same. They have many of the same elements.

However, they do not in themselves prove the secret rapture doctrine nor does anyone I know of say that they do.

As for me - believing in a literal millennial reign as I do - I see those events as likely the same - although one may well be at the end of the millennium.

You seem to want me to answer a certain way so that you can "spring" some profound trap on me.

Find a pigeon somewhere else. I have given you enough to know where I stand on the matter.

Why don't you pretend that I just answered "yes" to your questions like most pretrib drones would and then please show us all where you are going with this.

Thanks!

 

[Marvin Knox]

with all the times you said there is no pre-trib rapture - and now you want to talk about it ?

Hmmm................

It appears to me that He doesn't want just to talk about it.

He seems to want a particular answer so he can spring some kind of trap.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Rev 16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the serpent, the beast, and the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 They are spirits of demons that do miracles. These spirits go to the kings of the whole world and gather them for the war on the frightening day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 "See, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains alert and doesn't lose his clothes. He will not have to go naked and let others see his shame."
Rev 16:16 The spirits gathered the kings at the place which is called Armageddon in Hebrew.
(GW)
Yes, it does. To claim otherwise would be error. .

Is the key to agreeing with you the giant letters or is it the underlined words or is it the red lettering or is it the blue lettering?

Because I read pretty good and I don't see where it says what you say it says.

Please show me in normal language where it says that Jesus comes like a thief AT Armageddon.

Thanks.

 

[BABerean2]

If you can convince all these expert translators that they have no clue what they are doing and that you know far more than them.......that would be a start. Then if you could get them to change their translations in the Bible, you might have an argument.

Until then.......I'll go with the experts.....

I do not have to convince anyone.

I provided the meaning of the Greek words, which show your man-made doctrine to be in error.

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[BABerean2]

Please show me in normal language where it says that Jesus comes like a thief AT Armageddon.

Rev 16:15 "See, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains alert and doesn't lose his clothes. He will not have to go naked and let others see his shame."

Rev 16:16 The spirits gathered the kings at the place which is called Armageddon in Hebrew.

Big, small, highlighted, or not, it still says "at" Armageddon.

The word "at" is the 6th word in verse 16.

Do you know if C.I. Scofield wore reading glasses?

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[Douggg]

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

There are two different examples of a tabernacle in the New Covenant.

One is Christ, and the other is Christians.

My flesh body is a "temporary little tent like shack", at this time.

It does not look as good as it did when it was 20 years old.

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BAB2, try. Be a berean. What's your body have to do with if Egypt doesn't come to Jerusalem and keep the feast of tabernacles - they will be hit with no rain? Go find some video made by a respected New Covenant commentator which he talks about and explains Zechariah 14:16-20 specifically.

Zechariah 14:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

 

[BABerean2]

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Read Matthew 25:31-46, to find out when the Lord will "smite the heathen".

It is also found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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[Choose Wisely]

I do not have to convince anyone.

I provided the meaning of the Greek words, which show your man-made doctrine to be in error.

.

Ok. So the expert translators are wrong and you are right. Keep up the good work.

 

[seventysevens]

It does call attention to many bible translations use the plural term "times and seasons'
illogical that all those bible translations would be in error

Do you understand that the Greek does not use the "s" in the plural manner that you are depending on to make your doctrine work?


(KJV+) ButG1161 ofG4012 theG3588 timesG5550 andG2532 theG3588 seasons,G2540 brethren,G80 ye haveG2192 noG3756 needG5532 that I writeG1125 unto you.G5213

G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Total KJV occurrences: 53

G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 86

In the explanation of the Greek words above we normally find the singular, instead of the plural.

Therefore, your explanation falls apart in the original Greek text.



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[Marvin Knox]

Do you know if C.I. Scofield wore reading glasses?

I haven't majored on the old man like many of you guys have. But I see no where in the internet pictures available where he is wearing glasses.

Rev 16:15
The word "at" is the 6th word in verse 16.

Exactly!

And where does it appear in verse 15 where He says He is coming as a thief and that His people need to be clothed in His righteousness?

The entire passage reiterates the things He told us elsewhere.

He warned us that deceptions of an unparalleled nature will come on the earth during the days of God's wrath.

He warned us that we must be ready and found worthy to escape those things.

He warned us that His coming for us will be at a time we cannot know and when the people of the world are least expecting it.

He does not then warn us in the book of Revelation of the exact time He will come for us like a thief (i.e. when the kings of the earth are gathered by Satan at Armageddon to do battle).

He most certainly does not say that in the passage under discussion.

You people see what you want to see based on your preconceived theology - exactly as you accuse pre trib folks of doing.

The difference, of course, is that the vast majority of the pre trib crowd have never even heard of Darby or Scofield and base their understanding on the scriptures themselves and or the teaching of a huge number of other Bible teachers.

 

[BABerean2]

I haven't majored on the old man like many of you guys have. But I see no where in the internet pictures available where he is wearing glasses.

Exactly!

And where does it appear in verse 15 where He says He is coming as a thief and that His people need to be clothed in His righteousness?

The entire passage reiterates the things He told us elsewhere.

He warned us that deceptions of an unparalleled nature will come on the earth during the days of God's wrath.

He warned us that we must be ready and found worthy to escape those things.

He warned us that His coming for us will be at a time we cannot know and when the people of the world are least expecting it.

He does not then warn us in the book of Revelation of the exact time He will come for us like a thief (i.e. when the kings of the earth are gathered by Satan at Armageddon to do battle).

He most certainly does not say that in the passage under discussion.

You people see what you want to see based on your preconceived theology - exactly as you accuse pre trib folks of doing.

The difference, of course, is that the vast majority of the pre trib crowd have never even heard of Darby or Scofield and base their understanding on the scriptures themselves and or the teaching of a huge number of other Bible teachers.

Are you attempting to claim that Revelation 16:15 is not related to Revelation 16:16?

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[Douggg]

Read Matthew 25:31-46, to find out when the Lord will "smite the heathen".

It is also found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

BAB2, what have you found out from one of the New Covenant theology speakers - a video by them speaking directly about Zechariah 14:16-20?

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

 

[Truth7t7]

I already have - in great and nuanced detail in posts 109 and 112.

Read these quotes for starters and then perhaps reread my entire posts if you have time.


You seem to want me to answer a certain way so that you can "spring" some profound trap on me.

Find a pigeon somewhere else. I have given you enough to know where I stand on the matter.

Why don't you pretend that I just answered "yes" to your questions like most pretrib drones would and then please show us all where you are going with this.

Thanks!

Well Marv you requested that somebody step up to argue the scriptural validity of the pre-trib rapture, and leave C.I. Scofield alone?

Well it looks like I'm back to Scofield and I'll leave you alone.

 

[Truth7t7]

It appears to me that He doesn't want just to talk about it.

He seems to want a particular answer so he can spring some kind of trap.

God's word a trap?

You know we'll MARV that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below represents dispensationalism's standard scripture representing their claim of a pre-trib rapture.

1. Does this scripture below represent your pre-tribulation rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are you attempting to claim that Revelation 16:15 is not related to Revelation 16:16? .

I am saying that it says what it says - no more no less.

 

[seventysevens]

It appears to me that He doesn't want just to talk about it.
He seems to want a particular answer so he can spring some kind of trap.

God's word a trap?

No he was not saying Gods word being a trap !
the he referenced to is You -Not God

This illustrates as example how you misunderstand the things you read , hope in future you put more focus of attention of what you are reading so you can properly see what it means

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well Marv you requested that somebody step up to argue the scriptural validity of the pre-trib rapture

I'm waiting for you to then argue the validity of your position.

You seem to be delaying doing so because I won't fall into your trap by answering a certain question exactly as you would like me to. I answered your question clearly and, in fact, with more specificity than you apparently desired.

You know we'll MARV that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below represents dispensationalism's standard scripture representing their claim of a pre-trib rapture.

Yes it does. But it does not prove their point and is never used in and of itself to try to do so. Is there a point you'd like to make about it or will you continue dodging making your argument?

Does this scripture below represent your pre-tribulation rapture?

I may well represent the pre-tribulation rapture just as does the 1 Corinthian 15 passage - just as I have clearly told you several times now.

It does not, however, "prove" the pre-tribulation rapture and I would never use it to try to do so.

 

[BABerean2]

I am saying that it says what it says - no more no less.

Rev 16:15 "See, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains alert and doesn't lose his clothes. He will not have to go naked and let others see his shame."

Rev 16:16 The spirits gathered the kings at the place which is called Armageddon in Hebrew.

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[Marvin Knox]

No he was not saying Gods word being a trap !
the he referenced to is You -Not God

That makes no sense.

This illustrates as example how you misunderstand the things you read , hope in future you put more focus of attention of what you are reading so you can properly see what it means

I fully understand what I have read when it is intelligible.

I hope in the future you put more focus of attention on what you are writing so I can see what you mean.

All I'm saying is that He clearly wants me to answer a certain question a certain way before he will comment on my beliefs vis a vis his beliefs.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm waiting for you to then argue the validity of your position.

You seem to be delaying doing so because I won't fall into your trap by answering a certain question exactly as you would like me to. I answered your question clearly and, in fact, with more specificity than you apparently desired.

Yes it does. But it does not prove their point and is never used in and of itself to try to do so. Is there a point you'd like to make about it or will you continue dodging making your argument?

I may well represent the pre-tribulation rapture just as does the 1 Corinthian 15 passage - just as I have clearly told you several times now.

It does not, however, "prove" the pre-tribulation rapture and I would never use it to try to do so.

Ok we have agreement Marv, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the standard go to in the pre-trib claim.

Marv in the pre-trib claim in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below we have the "Resurrection Of The Dead In Christ"

Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.