Revelation in chart form

[BABerean2]

My point was that the Jews at that time will be Christians. They are not raptured. Which the only reason would be that the rapture took place before they became Christians.

When do they become Christians? Well, it has to be after the Day of the Lord begins because they will be saying peace and safety up to then.

The day of the Lord is one day.
It connects the famous event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 to the passage below and to Revelation 16:15-16.

What happens on the day of the Lord?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Nobody will come to faith after the day of the Lord.

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[Oldmantook]

My point was that the Jews at that time will be Christians. They are not raptured. Which the only reason would be that the rapture took place before they became Christians.

When do they become Christians? Well, it has to be after the Day of the Lord begins because they will be saying peace and safety up to then.

It isn't till around the middle of the 7 years that the Jews en masse become Christians. When the AoD is setup and they begin to flee to the mountains. It will be a time of mass chaos in Israel. The two witnesses will provide some protection for the Jews as they flee, but after a couple of months they will killed and that window will be not as open.

The 7th trumpet sounds and there is the war in the second heaven, Satan and his angels cast down. Which in Revelation 12:10 is about the Jews, Israel, becoming Christians, at that time.

This is the view I hold to published in the Journal of The Evangelical Theological Society; in my opinion not an easy read, at least for me.
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/16/16-3/16-3-pp149-158_JETS.pdf

 

[Revealing Times]

When do they become Christians? Well, it has to be after the Day of the Lord begins because they will be saying peace and safety up to then.

Reread the verse. Only those on the DARKNESS are the ones saying PEACE & SAFETY. The Children of the Light will not go through the Tribulation and the Jews ho have repented will be "HIDDEN" by God in he Wilderness. So they repent BEFORE the Day of the Lord, not AFTER.

And the scriptures say just that in Malachi 4:5-6

 

[Douggg]

Reread the verse. Only those on the DARKNESS are the ones saying PEACE & SAFETY. The Children of the Light will not go through the Tribulation and the Jews ho have repented will be "HIDDEN" by God in he Wilderness. So they repent BEFORE the Day of the Lord, not AFTER.

And the scriptures say just that in Malachi 4:5-6

Are the Jews presently in darkness regarding Jesus being the messiah and believing the prophecies in the new testament? Yes or No. The answer is "yes". They say the new testament is "irrelevant".

In your narrative of your interpretation, you have the two witnesses begin their testimony on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline, with the message to repent. Prior to then, the Jews are not Christians, and thus are in darkness. And will be saying peace and safety - as you say "Only those on the DARKNESS are the ones saying PEACE & SAFETY."

So the Day of the Lord will surprise them like a thief in the night. The surprise (and mortifying shock) will be when their thought to be messiah, the King of Israel, goes into the temple sits and claims to be God. The transgression of desolation act.

 

[Douggg]

This is the view I hold to published in the Journal of The Evangelical Theological Society; in my opinion not an easy read, at least for me.
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/16/16-3/16-3-pp149-158_JETS.pdf

I went and scanned through the link.

I am missing the relevancy to the Jews being Christians in Zechariah 14 at the time when Jesus returns - but are not raptured in the text. Which to me, invalidates the post trib view.

Regarding your article, though, I went to the bottom line (the article appears to be addressing the timing of the seals, the trumpets, bowls - parallel or sequential?) and I would suggest a different approach. That you go through Revelation 6-19 again, but this time put the chapters as whether they pertain to events either (1) spanning the whole seven years, or (2) specifically the second half.

The seals 1-6 in Chapter 6 span the entire 7 years, beginning to end - a person could look at them as giving a broad sequential over-view - an introduction to the rest of Revelation.

Next, chapters 7, 8, 9 get into more specifics, and cover the second half of the seven years, introduced by the 7th seal, sealing the 144,000 before the judgements of the trumpets and bowels begin.

 

[Revealing Times]

Are the Jews presently in darkness regarding Jesus being the messiah and believing the prophecies in the new testament? Yes or No. The answer is "yes". They say the new testament is "irrelevant".

In your narrative of your interpretation, you have the two witnesses begin their testimony on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline, with the message to repent. Prior to then, the Jews are not Christians, and thus are in darkness. And will be saying peace and safety - as you say "Only those on the DARKNESS are the ones saying PEACE & SAFETY."

So the Day of the Lord will surprise them like a thief in the night. The surprise (and mortifying shock) will be when their thought to be messiah, the King of Israel, goes into the temple sits and claims to be God. The transgression of desolation act.

No they will not, that is identifying the Wicked right before Jesus Christs Return. So that can't be REPENTED JEWS.

 

[Douggg]

No they will not, that is identifying the Wicked right before Jesus Christs Return. So that can't be REPENTED JEWS.

No they will not - what?

I am not understanding your post, RT.

Are you agreeing with the me that the Jews during almost all of the first half are not Christians - and therefore, during that first half are in darkness - thus saying peace and safety?

__________________________________________________________

You have the Jews becoming Christians due to the two witnesses preaching. And you have the two witnesses beginning their preaching on day 1185 of the seven years.

So before day 1185, the Jews do not believe in Jesus.

__________________________________________________________

You are misusing the word Repent. Repent does not equal Saved.

 

[BABerean2]

You are misusing the word Repent. Repent does not equal Saved.

It is the first step.

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk_17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luk_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act_8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2Co_7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Heb_7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev_2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev_2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.


Rev_2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

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[Revealing Times]

No they will not - what?

I am not understanding your post, RT.

The Jews will not be saying Peace and Safety. They are not the ones that will be surprised like a thief in the night, that will be the Wicked who say Peace and Safety. By the time you are pointing towards the Jews will have been killed (2/3) or in their (1/3) protected zone, whereas they will be protected by God, hence safe, hence why would this apply to them? They are SAFE in God.

Are you agreeing with the me that the Jews during almost all of the first half are not Christians - and therefore, during that first half are in darkness - thus saying peace and safety?

I am disagreeing with your timing. That quote comes from 1 Thess. 5:3 but the timing is shown to be at the time of the 6th Vial as per Rev. 16:15 right? Jesus mentions "Behold, I come as a thief" at this time. I think hes speaking more or less about those in the dark, the Jews will be safe by this time, the inhabitants of the world will have chosen Satan over God by taking the Mark of the Beast so their plight is already determined by God before he sends Jesus, but the warning remains, he will com like a thief against those in the dark. Those i the light don't have to worry about this.

You have the Jews becoming Christians due to the two witnesses preaching. And you have the two witnesses beginning their preaching on day 1185 of the seven years.

So before day 1185, the Jews do not believe in Jesus.

They believe in the LAW OF MOSES, or they are Atheists etc. etc. But they do not receive a MAN as their King.

You are misusing the word Repent. Repent does not equal Saved.

Repent does mean SAVED. They Repent of REJECTING Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

The Jews will not be saying Peace and Safety. They are not the ones that will be surprised like a thief in the night, that will be the Wicked who say Peace and Safety. By the time you are pointing towards the Jews will have been killed (2/3) or in their (1/3) protected zone, whereas they will be protected by God, hence safe, hence why would this apply to them? They are SAFE in God.

I am disagreeing with your timing. That quote comes from 1 Thess. 5:3 but the timing is shown to be at the time of the 6th Vial as per Rev. 16:15 right? Jesus mentions "Behold, I come as a thief" at this time. I think hes speaking more or less about those in the dark, the Jews will be safe by this time, the inhabitants of the world will have chosen Satan over God by taking the Mark of the Beast so their plight is already determined by God before he sends Jesus, but the warning remains, he will com like a thief against those in the dark. Those i the light don't have to worry about this.

The phrase "like a thief in the night" is a saying to amplify suddenness, unexpected. It is not unique only to any one particular situation. You cannot cross link 1Thessalonians5:2-3 with Revelation 16:15, using that saying being found in both passages as the basis.

In the first half of the 7 years, the Jews will be saying peace and safety, but it doesn't imply that they are the wicked. They are the unsaved, and thus in darkness. They are not going to believe that the Antichrist is going to commit the transgression of desolation until it happens. Any Christian who reads and knows the new testament, and is aware of the prophecies therein, will know that the Antichrist's betrayal to the Jews is coming.

The betrayal takes place in the middle part of the seven years.

Differently, the Revelation 16:15, like a thief in the night, takes place when the sixth seal of Revelation 6 takes place - the Revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ in heaven, before the throne of God, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven (Matthew 24:29-30) will be like a thief in the night to the wicked. It will be near the very end of the 7 years - and the Jews will be Christians at that time....

But, RT, before the Jews become Christians, they will be in the dark. You are trying to make an argument that they are not the wicked, thus will not be saying peace and safety. But the text in 1thessalonians5 does not imply that everyone in the dark saying peace and safety are the wicked.

The saying of peace and safety is for the first half of the seven years, the biggest part of it.

In 1Thessalonians5, it is the unsaved who are in the dark. The unsaved include both people who would be considered righteous (but not perfectly righteous like the saved) and the wicked.

1Thessalonians5:
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

hey believe in the LAW OF MOSES, or they are Atheists etc. etc. But they do not receive a MAN as their King.

Repent does mean SAVED. They Repent of REJECTING Jesus.

The word "Repent" does not mean saved. It's not arguable. You are misusing the word.

You need to express the entire statement "repent of rejecting Jesus" if that is what you mean to infer that they are saved, every time. Not just say they repent. This is something you need to work on - in your written communications. To me, it would be much simpler and direct just to say they are "saved".

_________________________________________________________
Relative information - The Jews (in Judaism) have a special word for repenting. It is "Teshuvah". It doesn't mean saved or salvation. It means turning from one's sins. They use the expression "making Teshuvah". Turning one's heart to God.

making Teshuvah is a foundation principle to Judaism.

 

[BABerean2]

You cannot cross link 1Thessalonians5:2-3 with Revelation 16:15, using that saying being found in both passages as the basis.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


All of the above contain a reference to the Lord and coming as a thief.

How much clearer could it be?

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[Douggg]

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


All of the above contain a reference to the Lord and coming as a thief.

How much clearer could it be?

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BAB2, classic... misuse of the saying like a thief in the night.... for the linking of events....by the reader.

The Day of the Lord spans a thousand plus years. It begins with the betrayal of the Antichrist to the Jewish people It continues through the great tribulation to the changes in the sun, moon, cosmos and the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ to the world as God. And Jesus's return down to this earth and judgment on the wicked. Then the thousand year messianic reign. One last brief rebellion of Satan. Then the destruction of this present heaven and earth. Completed with the Great White Throne judgement.

 

[Revealing Times]

The phrase "like a thief in the night" is a saying to amplify suddenness, unexpected. It is not unique only to any one particular situation. You cannot cross link 1Thessalonians5:2-3 with Revelation 16:15, using that saying being found in both passages as the basis.

No its not, and that's why so many get the meaning wrong. The EMPHASIS that is being shown here relates to the rest of the chapter, where God tells the Thessalonians that they need not worry about the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath coming upon them) and where Paul tells them that the Church will be Raptured before the Anti-Christ is Revealed. Thus here Paul is pointing out that those is the Light will not suffer the thief surprising them, but only those in the dark have to worry about the thief, who will hit them when thy least expect it, whensoever that is.

The passage is simple, stay in the LIGHT !! The thief doesn't steal in the light but in the darkness so the only ones in peril are those in the DARKNESS, it has nothing to do with SUDDENNESS per se. Its about the LIGHT vs. the DARKNESS, now read it again. Or read it like this: The Day of the Lord comes as a THIEF [ also comes] who descends on those in the DARK.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Its the DARKNESS and the THIEF that are being compared, not suddenness.

 

[Douggg]

No its not, and that's why so many get the meaning wrong. The EMPHASIS that is being shown here relates to the rest of the chapter, where God tells the Thessalonians that they need not worry about the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath coming upon them) and where Paul tells them that the Church will be Raptured before the Anti-Christ is Revealed.

RT, you keep leaving out words that you should be including. Not "before the Antichrist is revealed.... (wrong as you stated it)

.....but before the Anti-Christ is revealed as the man of sin. The Antichrist is not revealed as the man of sin until he commits the transgression of desolation act.

2thessalonians2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Like a thief in the night, the Antichrist will betray the Jews, who at the time will be thinking they are living in the messianic age of peace and safety, when he totally unexpected and suddenly goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. The transgression of desolation act. That's when the Antichrist is revealed as the man of sin, son of perdition.

 

[BABerean2]

BAB2, classic... misuse of the saying like a thief in the night.... for the linking of events....by the reader.

The Day of the Lord spans a thousand plus years. It begins with the betrayal of the Antichrist to the Jewish people It continues through the great tribulation to the changes in the sun, moon, cosmos and the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ to the world as God. And Jesus's return down to this earth and judgment on the wicked. Then the thousand year messianic reign. One last brief rebellion of Satan. Then the destruction of this present heaven and earth. Completed with the Great White Throne judgement.

Your type of Bible engineering is found below.

The Bible resonates with the concept that He will come as a thief.

A failure to consider the phenomenon of resonance is a disaster to the study of eschatology.

Try to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, if you can...


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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[Danoh]

It is the first step.

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk_17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luk_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act_8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2Co_7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Heb_7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev_2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev_2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.


Rev_2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

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Those passages are not all referring to the same issue - other than in an obvious "one side fits all" on your part.

Nehemiah 8: 8.

 

[BABerean2]

Those passages are not all referring to the same issue - other than in an obvious "one side fits all" on your part.

Nehemiah 8: 8.

Repentance was the first step in my coming to faith in Christ, but maybe not for you...

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