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Does Israel get taken over again?

A71

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Your post unclear...
1. Are you saying because the Good News Bible version uses a different English phraseology, that the event in 167 BC was not an Abomination that causes Desolation?, or
2. Are you saying because Josephus says it was an altar to Zeus it is not an alter to Antiochus?, or
3. Are you saying because Josephus says it was an altar to Zeus it is not an Abomination that causes Desolation?, or
4. What are you saying, exactly? :scratch:

Just to be clear, the Greek for 1 Maccabbees 1:54 about the Abomination of Desolation and Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 both about the Abomination of Desolation are the same.

Jesus is using a term known to Jews from their recent history to point to an event in their future.

1) I am not familiar with the Good News Bible, but to be quite clear, Daniel 8 explains how Antiochus stopped sacrifice in the Temple for three and a half years

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?




2) Please provide some evidence that Antiochus was worshipped. I have already shown you that it was Zeus who was worshipped.

3) the Hebrew word for desolation, shamem, has a dual meaning, it means both horrifying and causing destruction. The Greek word used by Jesus in Matthew, eremosis, means only desolating in the sense of causing destruction. This is very interesting and merits a much longer post.

4) The key issue here is that the only people allowed to escape from the destruction of Jerusalem were the Church. This is the central point of Jesus' message in the Temple (Olivet) prophecies of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. He is explaining in a roundabout way when the destruction will occur, and thus is giving instructions to the Church on how to escape prior to its occurence. Once the doors of Jerusalem were locked in AD67, that was it, carnage reigned. Because this information was intended only for the Church, and not apostate Jewry, i.e. those who rejected Christ, Jesus spoke in an elliptical manner. After all, he could have simply replied to their question by saying, "leave Jerusalem at the end of AD66 and no later". In fact he partially says this, because he tells them to leave before summer...there were only two seasons in Hebrew, winter and summer, and summer started Nisan 1, so the first day of the year AD 67 was Nisan 1 and that was when the Romans came in and closed the doors. Jerusalem was then full of Jews who had come up for passover, which starts around Nisan 15 I think. (The historians record the Church escaping on the last day of AD 66, going to Pella.)
However, Jesus replies in an oblique way, to obscure his meaning from those who should not understand it. The same goes for the reference to Daniel, hence the caveat, let the reader understand. An apostate Jew would understand it to mean when an abomination is set up in the Temple. Well that was AD 70, clearly too late. In fact though, and this cross references with Luke, the time to leave was the end of AD 66. At the end of AD 66 General Gallus entered Jerusalem and encamped, before having to retreat. So at that point he placed the totem pole for worshipping Zeus/Jupiter within the Holy Precincts of Jerusalem, thus fulfilling Jesus' sign, that when the abomination (thing that disgusts God) sits in the Holy Place, then it is time to scarper from Jerusalem.
 
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jgr

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Yes.

For the future Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way that the future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total (and lasting) defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, ISIL or Daesh) in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, to end Iran's nuclear weapons program, its ballistic missile program, its terrorist-group support operations, and its extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead Western intelligence agencies to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to permanently defeat Islamic State (and all of its successors), and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government is so heavily influenced by Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current, viable bulwark against the Iranians and Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. But if there are secret, Western overtures toward these generals (who are now holed up in eastern Syria), they could very well agree to defect from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Free Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which Army, with secret (yet substantial) Western assistance could then march on Baghdad and completely overthrow the current, Iranian-dominated, Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists (and Kurds) take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could then also defeat all of the Iranian-led Shiite Arab militias in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria. Then, to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran itself, "false flag" operations could be managed by Western intelligence agencies by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and Kurds (and their little children) terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the small territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being like a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free from all foreign (including U.S.) hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles, and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time (from the south, east, and north), with thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and a thousand Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its small area of land overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere, they could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (that is, a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm, such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders.

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem 7 years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (that is, to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other Arab regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings, sheikhs and innumerable princes of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, the Prophet's own people, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western, infidel interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a truly-federal United Arab States stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of: "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich United Arab States join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). These 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus Christ returns, He will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and He will have Satan bound in the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (of all times, including those in the Church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

may not appear
could be this war
could happen
could reinstall
could lead
could see
could very well agree
could then also defeat
could be managed
could be led
could so enrage
could continue
could be joined
could find itself
could drop
could be
could end up
could fulfill
could be blamed
could arise
could take up
could do
could have managed
could manage
could present
could explain
could consolidate
could justify
could also rail
could call
could easily turn
could employ
could begin
could convince
may not occur
could occur
could be taken


2 Peter 1
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
 
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keras

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I don't follow, keras. All of the described events themselves ceased or were completed in that era.

But even if they didn't, how would that invalidate Christ's predictions?
Deceivers, wars, famines, plagues, earthquakes, persecution; all continue today. Also the preaching of the Gospel to those who have never heard it yet, still happens.
It isn't Christ's predictions that I said were invalid, its your preterist ideas that have no validity.
 
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jgr

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Deceivers, wars, famines, plagues, earthquakes, persecution; all continue today. Also the preaching of the Gospel to those who have never heard it yet, still happens.
It isn't Christ's predictions that I said were invalid, its your preterist ideas that have no validity.
So provide an example of one such idea that has no validity.
 
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jgr

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Deceivers, wars, famines, plagues, earthquakes, persecution; all continue today. Also the preaching of the Gospel to those who have never heard it yet, still happens.
It isn't Christ's predictions that I said were invalid, its your preterist ideas that have no validity.

You should also be more than well aware by now that I'm an historicist. If you're implying that I believe that all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD, you need to familiarize yourself with the differences between full preterism and historicism.
 
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A71

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The trouble is Keras that Jesus describes his second coming in opposite terms to how he describes the events that led up to the destruction of Jerusalem.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father 37 As it was in the days of Noah so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man

It isn't actually complicated. The disciples asked a couple of questions, and the preeminent issue for them was the impending destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus gave them a precise countdown to the destruction, in line with his prophecy given in Daniel 9 by Gabriel. As he then states regarding his 2nd Coming that even he himself does not know the timing of it, it is then quite impossible that any timeline he has already gIven could pertain to that 2nd Coming.And self-evidently that timeline does not pertain to his 2nd Coming per se, but rather to the 70th week of Daniel and the destruction of Jerusalem, prophetically pre-established to occur AD67-70-73
 
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keras

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The trouble is Keras that Jesus describes his second coming in opposite terms to how he describes the events that led up to the destruction of Jerusalem.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father 37 As it was in the days of Noah so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man

It isn't actually complicated. The disciples asked a couple of questions, and the preeminent issue for them was the impending destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus gave them a precise countdown to the destruction, in line with his prophecy given in Daniel 9 by Gabriel. As he then states regarding his 2nd Coming that even he himself does not know the timing of it, it is then quite impossible that any timeline he has already gIven could pertain to that 2nd Coming.And self-evidently that timeline does not pertain to his 2nd Coming per se, but rather to the 70th week of Daniel and the destruction of Jerusalem, prophetically pre-established to occur AD67-70-73
Right, the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, is described quite differently from the 70 -135 AD destruction of the Temple, then the dispersion of the Jews.

Then Jesus goes on to say: As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when I come again.
Plainly this cannot apply to the Jews in 30-70 AD !
Also the 'coming' Jesus referred to, the one He didn't know when, is His coming in wrath, when He judges and punishes the nations. Psalms 110:5-6, Habakkuk 3:12, 2 Peter 3:10, +

We await the last 'week', of Daniel. There is no clear delineation of any 7 year period at Jesus first Advent.
 
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A71

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Except that Jesus pinpointed the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 as being the Roman standard, and a 7 year war occured at the midpoint of which the Temple was destroyed, all precisely as prophesied in Daniel.

There is no future 7 year antichrist covenant. You have simply made this up.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Except that Jesus pinpointed the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 as being the Roman standard, and a 7 year war occured at the midpoint of which the Temple was destroyed, all precisely as prophesied in Daniel.

There is no future 7 year antichrist covenant. You have simply made this up.
So, are you a Historicist as is AGR? If so, as an Historicist what do you believe is left unfulfilled in Bible prophecy, if anything?
 
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seventysevens

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So provide an example of one such idea that has no validity.
The majority of what you suppose to be real , such as you saying that there will be no future Great tribulation , pretty much most of what you believe :)
you will be deceived by the antichrist professing he is God ; yea sure you won't say that now but when it happens you will fall for it believing the antichrist has already come 2000 years ago
 
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keras

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Except that Jesus pinpointed the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 as being the Roman standard, and a 7 year war occured at the midpoint of which the Temple was destroyed, all precisely as prophesied in Daniel.

There is no future 7 year antichrist covenant. You have simply made this up.
What is made up, is your assertion that that the Roman Standard of Titus, constituted an 'abomination of desolation in the holy place'. By the time Titus got there, the Temple was engulfed in flames. After the fire and the soldiers had ripped up even the paving stones to get the gold, the holy Place was no more.
There is no definitive 7 year period around the Roman conquest. That wasn't finally wrapped up until 135 AD, 65 years later than the Temple destruction.
 
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SummaScriptura

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1) I am not familiar with the Good News Bible<snip>
Though you are quoting from it.
2) Please provide some evidence that Antiochus was worshipped. I have already shown you that it was Zeus who was worshipped.
300px-Antiochos_IV_Epiphanes.jpg
Coin depicts Antiochus IV. On back the picture is of Antiochus as Zeus. The Greek inscription reads ΘΕΟΥ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΟΥΣ ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΥ / ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΝΤΙΟΧΟΥ (King Antiochus, image of God, bearer of victory. Antiochus adopted the name "Epiphanes" for himself. Thus Antiochus Epiphanes means "God manifest".
3) the Hebrew word for desolation, shamem, has a dual meaning, it means both horrifying and causing destruction. The Greek word used by Jesus in Matthew, eremosis, means only desolating in the sense of causing destruction. This is very interesting and merits a much longer post.
But we're not talking Hebrew here. Daniel 9 (in the LXX), 1 Maccabees 1, and Matthew 24 all use the same Greek words, "βδέλυγμα τῶν ἐρημώσεων", which per you is causing destruction.
 
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SummaScriptura

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The parallels between 167 BC and what the New Testament describes as the Antichrist's desecration of the Jewish temple, stack up quite well.

In both:
1. An evil persona desecrates temple
2. This evil persona demands worship of self
3. Disobedience of this evil persona punished by death
4. When evil persona vacates temple an image of self is installed and worshiped
5. Evil persona has accomplice who enforces the worship order of the image
6. Jerusalem desolated
7. Righteous remnant flees to wilderness region

There are probably more parallels I'm missing here.
 
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Davy

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Except that Jesus pinpointed the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 as being the Roman standard, and a 7 year war occured at the midpoint of which the Temple was destroyed, all precisely as prophesied in Daniel.

There is no future 7 year antichrist covenant. You have simply made this up.

Here is in the idea of the covenant of Dan.9:27 being made by the "vile person" in Dan.11. This is what the Dan.9:27 verse is pointing to:

Dan 11:23-24
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.


24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
KJV


The "vile person" will enter using peace, and he will make that "league" no doubt with that small group of Jews, as the later verses reveal it involves reinstituting the old covenant sacrifices.

Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

KJV

Heretofore, no other mention of this holy covenant being made is mentioned... except the "league" of verse 23 being the only pact made that's mentioned. Thus the "league" is pointing to this "holy covenant", and of course that points to the old covenant since these events are involving the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem and that "vile person".

In this Dan.11:28 verse that "vile person" is already thinking in his heart to end that "holy covenant".


Dan 11:30
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

KJV

At that next stage, that "vile person" gets those also against the holy covenant on board with him.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

KJV

That is when that "vile person" will end the sacrifices required by the reinstituted old covenant in Jerusalem, and instead will pollute the future third temple with an idol, further explained at the end of Revelation 13.

Like Keras said, the Romans never fulfilled those events for the temple caught fire and burned down before they could seize it. And we know Antiochus was only a blueprint because our Lord Jesus quoted this event of the "abomination of desolation" for the future after Antiochus had been long dead.
 
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jgr

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What is made up, is your assertion that that the Roman Standard of Titus, constituted an 'abomination of desolation in the holy place'. By the time Titus got there, the Temple was engulfed in flames. After the fire and the soldiers had ripped up even the paving stones to get the gold, the holy Place was no more.
There is no definitive 7 year period around the Roman conquest. That wasn't finally wrapped up until 135 AD, 65 years later than the Temple destruction.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


“Holy place“ from Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalem, the holy city. The abomination was the pagan Roman armies that invaded and destroyed it. The desolation was the result of that destruction.
 
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A71

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So, are you a Historicist as is AGR? If so, as an Historicist what do you believe is left unfulfilled in Bible prophecy, if anything?
All of Revelation is post first Century. I don't particularly understand Revelation, so all I can say is some is fulfilled.
Daniel gave us the Roman Church, feet of clay and iron, which is eventually crushed by the true Church, stone not cut by hand. There are also several timelines in Daniel and Revelation which are terminating in this century.
Basically there is a 2000 odd years of history pointed at by these prophetic books.
 
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A71

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What is made up, is your assertion that that the Roman Standard of Titus, constituted an 'abomination of desolation in the holy place'. By the time Titus got there, the Temple was engulfed in flames. After the fire and the soldiers had ripped up even the paving stones to get the gold, the holy Place was no more.
There is no definitive 7 year period around the Roman conquest. That wasn't finally wrapped up until 135 AD, 65 years later than the Temple destruction.
Not made up at all. If you disagree with the Bible that is your issue, not mine
 
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A71

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Here is in the idea of the covenant of Dan.9:27 being made by the "vile person" in Dan.11. This is what the Dan.9:27 verse is pointing to:

Dan 11:23-24
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.


24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
KJV


The "vile person" will enter using peace, and he will make that "league" no doubt with that small group of Jews, as the later verses reveal it involves reinstituting the old covenant sacrifices.

Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

KJV

Heretofore, no other mention of this holy covenant being made is mentioned... except the "league" of verse 23 being the only pact made that's mentioned. Thus the "league" is pointing to this "holy covenant", and of course that points to the old covenant since these events are involving the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem and that "vile person".

In this Dan.11:28 verse that "vile person" is already thinking in his heart to end that "holy covenant".


Dan 11:30
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

KJV

At that next stage, that "vile person" gets those also against the holy covenant on board with him.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

KJV

That is when that "vile person" will end the sacrifices required by the reinstituted old covenant in Jerusalem, and instead will pollute the future third temple with an idol, further explained at the end of Revelation 13.

Like Keras said, the Romans never fulfilled those events for the temple caught fire and burned down before they could seize it. And we know Antiochus was only a blueprint because our Lord Jesus quoted this event of the "abomination of desolation" for the future after Antiochus had been long dead.
No. Incorrect. Daniel 11 and 12 are historical records that give an incredibly detailed account of the span of the Greek and Roman jurisdiction over Judea.

Incidentally, when you run roughshod over fulfilled prophecy, you are tossing pearls in the bin. God does not describe events centuries prior to their occurence for no reason.
 
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Davy

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Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...

“Holy place“ from Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalem, the holy city. The abomination was the pagan Roman armies that invaded and destroyed it. The desolation was the result of that destruction.

Luke 21:20 is not about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel.


There is NO mention of a "holy place" in the Luke 21:20 verse. You tried to add... that just to make your theory fit.

Luke 21:20 is about the destruction coming upon a portion of the city as foretold on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

That is a different subject than this...

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


Just because in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 version of Christ's Olivet Discourse warns of the "abomination of desolation" idol setup in the "holy place" of a standing temple in Jerusalem per the Book of Daniel, and the Luke 21 version does not, still doesn't mean you can just add... it to the Luke 21:20 verse.


The Luke 21:20 verse is new... information that Matt.24 & Mark 13 did not include. Nor did the Luke 21 version include the idea of Christ sending His angels to gather the saints like Matt.24 & Mark 13 does. Instead, we're foretold to look up, lift up the head, for redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:28).

Even the 4 Gospels do this, i.e., cover the same events with different details between them. Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 do the same.
 
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