Does Israel get taken over again?

seventysevens

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@seventysevens
I am vaguely familiar with these terms, but they tend to be somewhat simplistic. I think most people fall into Futurist or Historicist camps, with some fringe Preterists out there also...

Historicism is correct actually. Futurism is real bunk, and Preterism is a bit mad and not to be confused with Historicism!!
History is useful as it can be used to understand how things of the past have happened.,
But anyone no matter what category they claim is correct , anyone who thinks that all bible prophecy is fulfilled is simply in error.
As all it takes is to look at the prophecies and look at the world now ; as many prophecies have been fulfilled within the 20th century, in about and within Israel and various other topics of prophecy.
Anyone who says that the Man of Sin and his mark of the beast -666 has already happened is in complete error, I could go further , but I challenge people to set aside their notions and look at what is happening , but people who prefer to believe all prophecies are fulfilled simply do not want to see.
Like those who believe all life came from a single cell amoeba , they have been conned into believing that is true because it is taught that way in schools , many good Christians that go to college and be taught that evolution is true and creationism is false get deceived because someone with a college degree told them and from then on they do not believe bible scriptures

I have not studied what is held as the belief of Futurism may teach , I suppose that if there is a book teaching futurism and I read it I may not agree with what is taught depending on what is taught,
But that is the wrong approach anyway.
I look exclusively at the biblical prophecy and ask has this prophecy been fulfilled and can we prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt ?
The answer is either yes or no, stay with the facts and where the facts lead.
What I seen in Historicism and in Preterism is they will say a prophecy is 78% but that is close enough so the remaining 22% will be either just ignored as if it did not exist , or call it an allegory ,or spiritualize it do anything to pass it off as having been fulfilled , perfect examples of this are the Great Tribulation and the antichrist/Man of Sin and his mark of 666.
 
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A71

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Historicism and Futurism are chalk and cheese though seventysevens. (Great number btw)

Fururism plainly states that Daniel's 70th week is pending.
Preterism as you say claims all prophecy has been fulfilled, including Christ's return.

Historicism is not to be confused with Preterism.

Historicism is how prophecy was understood by the Church, until eventually the Catholic Church realized that it itself was described by both Daniel, (the little horn), and Revelation in most unflattering terms, and therefore they commisioned a Jesuit priest to invent alternate doctrines, (futurism and Preterism) To deflect the heat away.

Preterism views all prophecy as fulfilled. Historicism says the contrary. Historicism views some prophecies as fulfilled, some outstanding. As I already stated, Daniel is very largely fulfilled, although the book does of course extrude into the post Old Covenant world. E.G Nebuchadnezzar's statue depicts the Roman Empire, and the Catholic Church - legs of iron, feet of clay and iron.
Revelation then takes up from Daniel, and prophesies from AD 96 onwards. Revelation's prophesies cover 2000 years of church history....and are still ongoing. This is the antithesis of what Preterism promulgates




History is useful as it can be used to understand how things of the past have happened.,
But anyone no matter what category they claim is correct , anyone who thinks that all bible prophecy is fulfilled is simply in error.
As all it takes is to look at the prophecies and look at the world now ; as many prophecies have been fulfilled within the 20th century, in about and within Israel and various other topics of prophecy.
Anyone who says that the Man of Sin and his mark of the beast -666 has already happened is in complete error, I could go further , but I challenge people to set aside their notions and look at what is happening , but people who prefer to believe all prophecies are fulfilled simply do not want to see.
Like those who believe all life came from a single cell amoeba , they have been conned into believing that is true because it is taught that way in schools , many good Christians that go to college and be taught that evolution is true and creationism is false get deceived because someone with a college degree told them and from then on they do not believe bible scriptures

I have not studied what is held as the belief of Futurism may teach , I suppose that if there is a book teaching futurism and I read it I may not agree with what is taught depending on what is taught,
But that is the wrong approach anyway.
I look exclusively at the biblical prophecy and ask has this prophecy been fulfilled and can we prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt ?
The answer is either yes or no, stay with the facts and where the facts lead.
What I seen in Historicism and in Preterism is they will say a prophecy is 78% but that is close enough so the remaining 22% will be either just ignored as if it did not exist , or call it an allegory ,or spiritualize it do anything to pass it off as having been fulfilled , perfect examples of this are the Great Tribulation and the antichrist/Man of Sin and his mark of 666.
 
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A71

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@seventysevens
The really big problem though is Futurism. Preterism is very cranky and so easy to dismiss.

Futurism is based around one simple concept, that Daniel's 70th week is unfulfilled. This concept permeates and saturates much of what passes for modern eschatology.
I.E. a lot of Bible commentators and endtime 'experts' and so-called authorities take as a given that Daniel's 70th week is unfulfilled. This concept underpins all their thinking. Hence it is actually critical to correctly understand Daniel.

I can explain Daniel to anyone, but they need to have open hearts and minds, and be willing to learn. Once you correctly understand Daniel, then an enormous amount of fog clears in scriptural understanding.
 
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SummaScriptura

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@seventysevens
The really big problem though is Futurism. Preterism is very cranky and so easy to dismiss.

Futurism is based around one simple concept, that Daniel's 70th week is unfulfilled. This concept permeates and saturates much of what passes for modern eschatology.
I.E. a lot of Bible commentators and endtime 'experts' and so-called authorities take as a given that Daniel's 70th week is unfulfilled. This concept underpins all their thinking. Hence it is actually critical to correctly understand Daniel.

I can explain Daniel to anyone, but they need to have open hearts and minds, and be willing to learn. Once you correctly understand Daniel, then an enormous amount of fog clears in scriptural understanding.
The Abomination that causes Desolation is future. The Romans were unable to implement it since the Temple burned (by accident) before they could do it.
 
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A71

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The Abomination that causes Desolation is future. The Romans were unable to implement it since the Temple burned (by accident) before they could do it.
The Romans viewed Caesar as God. The emperor cult was started by Augustus, much to the chagrin of the Roman Senate, and all the Caesars were by definition, God incarnate. The head of the Roman Pantheon was Jupiter, (which is the Roman form of Zeus; Antiochus had demanded Zeus worship in the Temple). The Roman Standard bore the emblem of Jupiter, (some standards also had images of Caesar). The Roman Soldiers were required to worship the standard. The Roman Standard is therefore the Abomination. The Holy Place was Jerusalem. When the Roman Soldiers stuck their standards up in Jerusalem, then this was an Abomination.

The Book of Daniel tells us:
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation

Titus, in the midst of the week, (AD70 was the midpoint of the war), caused the Temple to be burnt down thus causing sacrifices to cease. the Roman standards were then overspread everywhere...

In Matthew Jesus tells us:

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

I.E. when you see the Abomination of Zeus worship, The Roman Standard, which indicates destruction, standing in Jerusalem, then flee the city...

The Roman armies under Gallus briefly encamped within Jerusalem's precincts in AD66
 
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SummaScriptura

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The Romans viewed Caesar as God. The emperor cult was started by Augustus, much to the chagrin of the Roman Senate, and all the Caesars were by definition, God incarnate. The head of the Roman Pantheon was Jupiter, (which is the Roman form of Zeus; Antiochus had demanded Zeus worship in the Temple). The Roman Standard bore the emblem of Jupiter, (some standards also had images of Caesar). The Roman Soldiers were required to worship the standard. The Roman Standard is therefore the Abomination. The Holy Place was Jerusalem. When the Roman Soldiers stuck their standards up in Jerusalem, then this was an Abomination.

The Book of Daniel tells us:
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation

Titus, in the midst of the week, (AD70 was the midpoint of the war), caused the Temple to be burnt down thus causing sacrifices to cease. the Roman standards were then overspread everywhere...

In Matthew Jesus tells us:

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

I.E. when you see the Abomination of Zeus worship, The Roman Standard, which indicates destruction, standing in Jerusalem, then flee the city...

The Roman armies under Gallus briefly encamped within Jerusalem's precincts in AD66
Nah. Read 1 Maccabbees 1. In that chapter there is a dry run for the Abomination of Desolation. An image of a man representing himself as god in the Holy of holies is the requirement.
 
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A71

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"Nah" doesn't cut it.

You haven't actually quoted Maccabees because it doesn't support your fantasy. Antiochus set up a pagan altar in the Temple, which Josephus tells us was an altar to Zeus. Here is Maccabees:


54 King Antiochus set up
The Awful Horror on the altar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea. 55 Pagan sacrifices were offered in front of houses and in the streets. 56 Any books of the Law which were found were torn up and burned, 57 and anyone who was caught with a copy of the sacred books or who obeyed the Law was put to death by order of the king. 58 Month after month these wicked people used their power against the Israelites caught in the towns.

59 On the twenty-fifth of the month, these same evil people offered sacrifices on the pagan altar erected on top of the altar in the Temple. 60 Mothers who had allowed their babies to be circumcised were put to death in accordance with the king's decree. 61 Their babies were hung around their necks, and their families and those who had circumcised them were put to death. 62 But many people in Israel firmly resisted the king's decree and refused to eat food that was ritually unclean. 63 They preferred to die rather than break the holy covenant and eat unclean food—and many did die. 64 In his anger God made Israel suffer terribly.
 
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Davy

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Basically you are talking rubbish Davy.
You do not understand Daniel, and you have the temerity on that basis to accuse me of talking rubbish.

You bang on about the simplicity of Scripture and the "plainly written scripture in Daniel", but books like Daniel and Revelation are anything but transparent. They are coded figurative texts written for those with the key of the Holy Spirit given to them to unearth their hidden meanings.

Especially in our day and time since Christ has given us His Revelation with events for the end that links directly back to the Book of Daniel, it's really not that hard to understand the "abomination of desolation" in Jerusalem is for the very end of this world, in our near future, and was not... fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the Romans, nor at any time. No amount of finagling by men's doctrines is going to change that hard link between those events Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church for the end.
 
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Davy

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Historicism and Futurism are chalk and cheese though seventysevens. (Great number btw)

Fururism plainly states that Daniel's 70th week is pending.
Preterism as you say claims all prophecy has been fulfilled, including Christ's return.

Historicism is not to be confused with Preterism.

Historicism is how prophecy was understood by the Church, until eventually the Catholic Church realized that it itself was described by both Daniel, (the little horn), and Revelation in most unflattering terms, and therefore they commisioned a Jesuit priest to invent alternate doctrines, (futurism and Preterism) To deflect the heat away.

Preterism views all prophecy as fulfilled. Historicism says the contrary. Historicism views some prophecies as fulfilled, some outstanding. As I already stated, Daniel is very largely fulfilled, although the book does of course extrude into the post Old Covenant world. E.G Nebuchadnezzar's statue depicts the Roman Empire, and the Catholic Church - legs of iron, feet of clay and iron.
Revelation then takes up from Daniel, and prophesies from AD 96 onwards. Revelation's prophesies cover 2000 years of church history....and are still ongoing. This is the antithesis of what Preterism promulgates

Men's doctrines. Blah, blah.
 
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Blade

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..no.. but the worst is till to come. When it seems looks as if there is NO HOPE from this world to help them.. GOD will step in. See..they dont follow Him.. they rejected Him... yet.. He is faithful. He made Israel promises. So no matter what.. He IS GOING TO keep His word..over them and ALL in this world that WORD covers and was written for.. ALL of US are ONE. We are the same..
 
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keras

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..no.. but the worst is till to come. When it seems looks as if there is NO HOPE from this world to help them.. GOD will step in. See..they dont follow Him.. they rejected Him... yet.. He is faithful. He made Israel promises. So no matter what.. He IS GOING TO keep His word..over them and ALL in this world that WORD covers and was written for.. ALL of US are ONE. We are the same..
Correct, Blade.
God will keep His Word to His people. And who are His People? Every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that's who! Revelation 5:9-10

The promises and prophesies made to Israel, apply to us Christians, the One People of God. Ephesians 2:11-18 makes that perfectly clear. We are the Israelites of God, His Overcomers!
 
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SummaScriptura

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"Nah" doesn't cut it.

You haven't actually quoted Maccabees because it doesn't support your fantasy. Antiochus set up a pagan altar in the Temple, which Josephus tells us was an altar to Zeus. Here is Maccabees:

54 King Antiochus set up
The Awful Horror on the altar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea. 55 Pagan sacrifices were offered in front of houses and in the streets. 56 Any books of the Law which were found were torn up and burned, 57 and anyone who was caught with a copy of the sacred books or who obeyed the Law was put to death by order of the king. 58 Month after month these wicked people used their power against the Israelites caught in the towns.

59 On the twenty-fifth of the month, these same evil people offered sacrifices on the pagan altar erected on top of the altar in the Temple. 60 Mothers who had allowed their babies to be circumcised were put to death in accordance with the king's decree. 61 Their babies were hung around their necks, and their families and those who had circumcised them were put to death. 62 But many people in Israel firmly resisted the king's decree and refused to eat food that was ritually unclean. 63 They preferred to die rather than break the holy covenant and eat unclean food—and many did die. 64 In his anger God made Israel suffer terribly.
Your post unclear...
1. Are you saying because the Good News Bible version uses a different English phraseology, that the event in 167 BC was not an Abomination that causes Desolation?, or
2. Are you saying because Josephus says it was an altar to Zeus it is not an alter to Antiochus?, or
3. Are you saying because Josephus says it was an altar to Zeus it is not an Abomination that causes Desolation?, or
4. What are you saying, exactly? :scratch:

Just to be clear, the Greek for 1 Maccabbees 1:54 about the Abomination of Desolation and Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 both about the Abomination of Desolation are the same.

Jesus is using a term known to Jews from their recent history to point to an event in their future.
 
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SummaScriptura

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<snip>The Holy Place was Jerusalem.<snip>
No. Jerusalem was not the Holy place. Consistent with the rest of the Bible the Holy place was in the temple. Gentiles WERE allowed in Jerusalem. Gentiles were NOT allowed in the temple because it contained the Holy place. The event which occurred in 167 BC is intended to inform our understanding of its recurrence which was not fulfilled in AD 70.
 
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seventysevens

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Historicism is very carnally minded and scripture must conform to the carnal minds way of thought and when it doesn't fit , either throw it out - ignore it - or call it an allegory or something like that .

The Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke about has not yet happened ; just because you find evil men in the past history that did things similar to what the Man of Sin will do; That does not mean that person was the Man of Sin . You literally have to include ALL the associated scripture to be accurate , not just merely some of it.

The abomination that makes desolate that Jesus spoke about has not yet happened - Jesus Himself is the person that defeats the Man of Sin/Antichrist
who caused that particular abomination.

Immediately after the Great Tribulation.
Jesus returns to destroy the Man of Sin / Antichrist - simple - none of any persons that amil and Historicism say is the antichrst has been personally thrown Alive into the lake of fire - Jesus has not yet returned ,
The abomination that makes desolate that Jesus speaks about - is the one Jesus referred to of Daniel that prophet

You say that has been fulfilled but Jesus is The One who personally throws That person He speaks of that causes the abomination of desolation Alive into the lake of fire when He Jesus returns to earth at His Glorious coning on the clouds in Great Glory - the event that Jesus says that everyone on earth will personally witness - if that had already happened there would be a historical record of it
There isn't any 'cause it is still yet to occur


The Romans viewed Caesar as God. The emperor cult was started by Augustus, much to the chagrin of the Roman Senate, and all the Caesars were by definition, God incarnate. The head of the Roman Pantheon was Jupiter, (which is the Roman form of Zeus; Antiochus had demanded Zeus worship in the Temple). The Roman Standard bore the emblem of Jupiter, (some standards also had images of Caesar). The Roman Soldiers were required to worship the standard. The Roman Standard is therefore the Abomination. The Holy Place was Jerusalem. When the Roman Soldiers stuck their standards up in Jerusalem, then this was an Abomination.

The Book of Daniel tells us:
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation

Titus, in the midst of the week, (AD70 was the midpoint of the war), caused the Temple to be burnt down thus causing sacrifices to cease. the Roman standards were then overspread everywhere...

In Matthew Jesus tells us:

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

I.E. when you see the Abomination of Zeus worship, The Roman Standard, which indicates destruction, standing in Jerusalem, then flee the city...

The Roman armies under Gallus briefly encamped within Jerusalem's precincts in AD66
 
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jgr

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Historicism is very carnally minded and scripture must conform to the carnal minds way of thought and when it doesn't fit , either throw it out - ignore it - or call it an allegory or something like that .

The Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke about has not yet happened ; just because you find evil men in the past history that did things similar to what the Man of Sin will do; That does not mean that person was the Man of Sin . You literally have to include ALL the associated scripture to be accurate , not just merely some of it.

The abomination that makes desolate that Jesus spoke about has not yet happened - Jesus Himself is the person that defeats the Man of Sin/Antichrist
who caused that particular abomination.

Immediately after the Great Tribulation.
Jesus returns to destroy the Man of Sin / Antichrist - simple - none of any persons that amil and Historicism say is the antichrst has been personally thrown Alive into the lake of fire - Jesus has not yet returned ,
The abomination that makes desolate that Jesus speaks about - is the one Jesus referred to of Daniel that prophet

You say that has been fulfilled but Jesus is The One who personally throws That person He speaks of that causes the abomination of desolation Alive into the lake of fire when He Jesus returns to earth at His Glorious coning on the clouds in Great Glory - the event that Jesus says that everyone on earth will personally witness - if that had already happened there would be a historical record of it
There isn't any 'cause it is still yet to occur
History realizes. Futurism fantasizes.

Scriptural and historical evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24 and parallel prophecies in the generation immediately following Christ's discourse.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
 
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keras

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All true, JGR, but none of it has ceased happening, so your premise is invalid.

The whole preterist notion leaves those who believe it today, in a state of complete bewilderment about our future.
That is not how the God we trust wants us to be.
 
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DoubleJ23 said in post #1:

Does Israel get taken over again?

Yes.

For the future Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way that the future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total (and lasting) defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, ISIL or Daesh) in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, to end Iran's nuclear weapons program, its ballistic missile program, its terrorist-group support operations, and its extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead Western intelligence agencies to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to permanently defeat Islamic State (and all of its successors), and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government is so heavily influenced by Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current, viable bulwark against the Iranians and Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. But if there are secret, Western overtures toward these generals (who are now holed up in eastern Syria), they could very well agree to defect from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Free Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which Army, with secret (yet substantial) Western assistance could then march on Baghdad and completely overthrow the current, Iranian-dominated, Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists (and Kurds) take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could then also defeat all of the Iranian-led Shiite Arab militias in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria. Then, to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran itself, "false flag" operations could be managed by Western intelligence agencies by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and Kurds (and their little children) terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the small territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being like a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free from all foreign (including U.S.) hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles, and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time (from the south, east, and north), with thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and a thousand Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its small area of land overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere, they could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (that is, a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm, such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders.

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem 7 years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (that is, to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other Arab regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings, sheikhs and innumerable princes of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, the Prophet's own people, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western, infidel interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a truly-federal United Arab States stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of: "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich United Arab States join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). These 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus Christ returns, He will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and He will have Satan bound in the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (of all times, including those in the Church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).
 
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jgr

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All true, JGR, but none of it has ceased happening, so your premise is invalid.

The whole preterist notion leaves those who believe it today, in a state of complete bewilderment about our future.
That is not how the God we trust wants us to be.
I don't follow, keras. All of the described events themselves ceased or were completed in that era.

But even if they didn't, how would that invalidate Christ's predictions?
 
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The short answer to the OP is that Jerusalem will be (repeatedly) trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles ends when Jesus returns. Between now and then almost anything can happen.
 
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The short answer to the OP is that Jerusalem will be (repeatedly) trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles ends when Jesus returns. Between now and then almost anything can happen.
 
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