What Ideas do you have that might be considered "heretical" by some in your beliefs...?

[Neogaia777]

Some days it feels like saying that Christians ought to practice righteousness is seen as heretical.

So many disagree on what it means to "practice righteousness", so much so that some views have almost a dual nature or are bipolar opposites...

 

[mark kennedy]

I know what scripture says, it's just that my heart tells me the heresy that Jesus Christ's sacrifice was (is_ sufficient for all mankind's sin. There are a coupe verses I am probably taking out of context that point to some kind of U.S. but there are far more scriptures that say there will be hell to pay.

Hell is different then the lake of fire, it's like a holding cell for the children of perdition. They will be there for at least 1000 years, but when they are thrown into the lake of fire both body and soul are destroyed. I've been through the proof texts and they are all pretty consistent with that view.

 

[Tetra]

Really?? Where do I begin...

 

[Lazarus Short]

Now my probably heretical view is Universal Salvation. I really have a hard time believing a loving God who knows all things would create someone with the foreknowledge that he will be sending them to hell.

Another one that is related to it is that if there is a hell, it is not for eternity. Again, even the worst most heinous murderer and rapist to me does not deserve a literal eternity burning and suffering. I think maybe a million years should be more than enough for the worst person that ever lived.

I also subscribe to Universal Salvation/Reconciliation. I also utterly reject the reality of Hell, based on two years of intense study of the KJV and its linguistic underpinnings. I keep going back to three things, though overall, Scripture better fits the Universalist theory than the Damnationist or the Annihilationist theories. The three things are:

I Corinthians 3:15 & 15:26,28 - and what is implied.

Observing that the KJV translators did not dare to ID the Lake of Fire as being Hell.

Finding Hel in Norse mythology - their goddess of the underworld.

I also reject the "proof text" method, for I find dozens, even hundreds of verses that bear on a Biblical/doctrinal subject, and I note that most of them are never dealt with. I believe God's Word is very consistent, and too often we are wrong because we have not examined the whole counsel of God, OR we have begun with incorrect assumptions from the get-go.

 

[rturner76]

If you believe in the first paragraph as you said, then how can you believe there will be any people in hell. If the second paragraph is true, as I also believe, then you're dead wrong in the first paragraph. You are right, He died for all, but you have free choice to accept that gift and also the Holy Spirit that makes you dead to sin. Those that throw it back in God's face...well they wouldn't be happy praising God in heaven forever, so they might as well just no longer exist. I feel sorry for them. They won't know what they'll be missing.

I was saying U.S. is something my heart believes and that I can't control. I don't actually preach that doctrine because I have tried and been proven wrong with Biblical text over and over by people quoting Jesus' own words. Believing that suffering in hell is not permanent is more along the lines of something I would say to reassure someone with a non Christian relative rather than Universal Salvation although I do always say "God saves whom he will," Hell was explained to me as "a place where God does not exist." So my logic tells me that would have to be annihilation because how can there be a place where God does not exist when he is Omnipresent (in all places or everywhere that exists)?

 

[rturner76]

Hell is different then the lake of fire, it's like a holding cell for the children of perdition. They will be there for at least 1000 years, but when they are thrown into the lake of fire both body and soul are destroyed. I've been through the proof texts and they are all pretty consistent with that view.

I won't argue with that. Especially because I'm no Biblical scholar and have no way or reason to refute it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I was saying U.S. is something my heart believes and that I can't control. I don't actually preach that doctrine because I have tried and been proven wrong with Biblical text over and over by people quoting Jesus' own words. Believing that suffering in hell is not permanent is more along the lines of something I would say to reassure someone with a non Christian relative rather than Universal Salvation although I do always say "God saves whom he will," Hell was explained to me as "a place where God does not exist." So my logic tells me that would have to be annihilation because how can there be a place where God does not exist when he is Omnipresent (in all places or everywhere that exists)?

People have "proven" me "wrong" with "Jesus' Own Words" too, but I have studied into the subject enough to know that (in general) they are quoting badly translated Scripture. As ever, garbage in - garbage out. To arrive at the Truth, you must look into the meanings of the words used, and read the "proof texts" in a Greek-English interlinear version. It took me two years, so it can't be easily solved during the course of a Sunday School.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I was saying U.S. is something my heart believes and that I can't control. I don't actually preach that doctrine because I have tried and been proven wrong with Biblical text over and over by people quoting Jesus' own words. Believing that suffering in hell is not permanent is more along the lines of something I would say to reassure someone with a non Christian relative rather than Universal Salvation although I do always say "God saves whom he will," Hell was explained to me as "a place where God does not exist." So my logic tells me that would have to be annihilation because how can there be a place where God does not exist when he is Omnipresent (in all places or everywhere that exists)?

U.S. is theirs for the taking. But free choice is what you are not taking into consideration. That is why you can be proven wrong so many times. It all comes down to sin, which is 'darkness.' Only those who are in the light and endure in that light to the end of their lives can benefit from the salvation that has been already paid for. They have all the tools needed to succeed - all given by the Holy Spirit. Those who choose darkness will be with their own spiritual father - the devil. And Satan cannot be saved.

Hell was made for Satan and his angels. They are immortal, thus will live on in hell forever. Humans are mortal, including their spirits, ever since Adam's sin. After the death of the body of the damned, the mortal spirit still exists until the judgment. Mortal vs. Immortal spirit is why the mortal spirit will be utterly destroyed after looking to see if their names are in the book of life IMO. Being born again makes your spirit immortal, and our bodies must take on immortality by replacing it before entering heaven, just like what was done with our mortal spirits. To me, the Book of Life has immortal human spirits listed. Those still mortal are not written in the Book of Life.

I put IMO because of all scripture. The mortality or immortality of the spirit after death and judgment and resurrection cannot be explained to my satisfaction by scripture. Hell goes on forever for those who are immortal - the angels and Satan. The damned mortal humans will be thrown into an eternal hell. It's hell that is eternal, not the mortals.

 

[mark kennedy]

I won't argue with that. Especially because I'm no Biblical scholar and have no way or reason to refute it.

I found the subject at random here on these boards. I did what I always do, I checked out the proof texts and was very surprised what I found. I really don't see it as a point of contention, more like a matter of conviction. It's just one of those things you have to take seriously and spend some time considering. What the gospel offers is a way to avoid perdition, that is the essence of the Christian message, the ultimate end of the children of perdition is God's sole responsibility and we do well to trust the one who judges righteously regardless of the limits of our understanding. The one who makes the promise is faithful.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[rturner76]

People have "proven" me "wrong" with "Jesus' Own Words" too, but I have studied into the subject enough to know that (in general) they are quoting badly translated Scripture. As ever, garbage in - garbage out. To arrive at the Truth, you must look into the meanings of the words used, and read the "proof texts" in a Greek-English interlinear version. It took me two years, so it can't be easily solved during the course of a Sunday School.

Seems like a very worth while pursuit. A good way to spend time and a good way to exercise the parts of your mind that are used for reading comprehension, language skills, and critical thinking. I think one would only be wiser and spiritually richer for the experience.

 

[rturner76]

U.S. is theirs for the taking. But free choice is what you are not taking into consideration. That is why you can be proven wrong so many times. It all comes down to sin, which is 'darkness.' Only those who are in the light and endure in that light to the end of their lives can benefit from the salvation that has been already paid for. They have all the tools needed to succeed - all given by the Holy Spirit. Those who choose darkness will be with their own spiritual father - the devil. And Satan cannot be saved.

Hell was made for Satan and his angels. They are immortal, thus will live on in hell forever. Humans are mortal, including their spirits, ever since Adam's sin. After the death of the body of the damned, the mortal spirit still exists until the judgment. Mortal vs. Immortal spirit is why the mortal spirit will be utterly destroyed after looking to see if their names are in the book of life IMO. Being born again makes your spirit immortal, and our bodies must take on immortality by replacing it before entering heaven, just like what was done with our mortal spirits. To me, the Book of Life has immortal human spirits listed. Those still mortal are not written in the Book of Life.

I put IMO because of all scripture. The mortality or immortality of the spirit after death and judgment and resurrection cannot be explained to my satisfaction by scripture. Hell goes on forever for those who are immortal - the angels and Satan. The damned mortal humans will be thrown into an eternal hell. It's hell that is eternal, not the mortals.

I see, in a nutshell what you are saying is that as humans, we can't be put in hell for all eternity because people sent to hell have not achieves eternal life according to the Book of Life. However hell itself as a realm does or will exist for all eternity and the eternal beings such as fallen angels will be there for that duration.

I understand your meaning however, I still have a hard time believing in eternal suffering,even for Satan. I hope that does not make me sound sympathetic toward the father of lies. I just think that every being ultimately has been created for a purpose and it is hard for me to believe anyone's purpose is to suffer eternally. That philosophy gives me a mythological feeling. I think God is more benevolent than that

 

[rturner76]

I found the subject at random here on these boards. I did what I always do, I checked out the proof texts and was very surprised what I found. I really don't see it as a point of contention, more like a matter of conviction. It's just one of those things you have to take seriously and spend some time considering. What the gospel offers is a way to avoid perdition, that is the essence of the Christian message, the ultimate end of the children of perdition is God's sole responsibility and we do well to just the one who judges righteously regardless of the limits of our understanding. The one who makes the promise is faithful.

Grace and peace,
Mark

And that's why 9/10 peopledon'tbelievein Universal Salvation. When people explain as you have I just ask one question: Is it that God can't or is not willing to save us all from eternal damnation?

 

[mark kennedy]

And that's why 9/10 peopledon'tbelievein Universal Salvation. When people explain as you have I just ask one question: Is it that God can't or is not willing to save us all from eternal damnation?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly but God doesn't want to destroy the wicked, he must:

Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment. (Isaiah 1:5-6)
​

The most prolific of the writing, 8th century prophets describing perdition. That condition God cannot redeem, no matter how much punishment or mercy is applied, it is an incurable. Jesus warns:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)
​

Universal salvation is a wonderful thought but perdition is a very real condition. I would advise caution with regards to an underestimation of the determination of real evil. There is mercy with God but he will not allow evil to continue, he will end it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[1stcenturylady]

I see, in a nutshell what you are saying is that as humans, we can't be put in hell for all eternity because people sent to hell have not achieves eternal life according to the Book of Life. However hell itself as a realm does or will exist for all eternity and the eternal beings such as fallen angels will be there for that duration.

I understand your meaning however, I still have a hard time believing in eternal suffering,even for Satan. I hope that does not make me sound sympathetic toward the father of lies. I just think that every being ultimately has been created for a purpose and it is hard for me to believe anyone's purpose is to suffer eternally. That philosophy gives me a mythological feeling. I think God is more benevolent than that

Whether or not angels, including Satan have a nervous system and can feel pain as we know it, the fact remains that hell is eternal and that is where they will be forever. And to us they will all be forgotten.

The whole purpose of allowing man and angels to have free choice, and to choose to love God, or utterly reject Him is because of eternity. Satan made his choice and drew a third of the angels with him. God allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden to start the process. God is looking forward to that time after this short period of time, basically less than 10,000 years from beginning to end, to have only those who love Him, both angels and humans. In eternity, only the pure gold/righteous will remain. All the slough will be burned off. There will come a time when it is either black or white without any gray areas. The choices will be made and committed to.

11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

 

[rturner76]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly but God doesn't want to destroy the wicked, he must:

Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment. (Isaiah 1:5-6)
​

The most prolific of the writing, 8th century prophets describing perdition. That condition God cannot redeem, no matter how much punishment or mercy is applied, it is an incurable. Jesus warns:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)
​

Universal salvation is a wonderful thought but perdition is a very real condition. I would advise caution with regards to an underestimation of the determination of real evil. There is mercy with God but he will not allow evil to continue, he will end it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Let me make sure I fully understand this......So Christ's sacrifice on the cross was on or is not sufficient for all, just some? There are people that God does not have the ability to forgive? I just want to be crystal clear about this.

 

[rturner76]

Whether or not angels, including Satan have a nervous system and can feel pain as we know it, the fact remains that hell is eternal and that is where they will be forever. And to us they will all be forgotten.

The whole purpose of allowing man and angels to have free choice, and to choose to love God, or utterly reject Him is because of eternity. Satan made his choice and drew a third of the angels with him. God allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden to start the process. God is looking forward to that time after this short period of time, basically less than 10,000 years from beginning to end, to have only those who love Him, both angels and humans. In eternity, only the pure gold/righteous will remain. All the slough will be burned off. There will come a time when it is either black or white without any gray areas. The choices will be made and committed to.

11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

So there are definitely creatures that God has created or will create with the full knowledge that they will go to hell and suffer for eternally? For them there is no reprieve ever for their mistake? Did God want these beings to suffer forever more when he created them?

 

[mark kennedy]

Let me make sure I fully understand this......So Christ's sacrifice on the cross was on or is not sufficient for all, just some? There are people that God does not have the ability to forgive? I just want to be crystal clear about this.

Of course the sacrifice of the cross, atonement and promise of new birth is sufficient to save whosoever will. God can forgive any and every sin which would make you innocent, not necessarily righteous. God's divine nature requires righteousness, holiness and in short perfection, as Jesus said, 'be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect'. There has to be a time of decision and willful sin is something God does not forgive because the basis of forgiveness is being born again in the image of the Son of God. You must be born again of incorruptible seed, receive the divine nature and the Holy Spirit and bear fruit to the glory of God. This God freely give by grace through faith to whosoever will but Jesus makes it clear, many are called, few are chosen. God's grace is sufficient all, but some refuse. But to many who receive him he gives power to become the children of God.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[DennisTate]

What Ideas do you have that might be considered "heretical" by some in your beliefs...?

Let's share them and examine them...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Since 1990 I have wondered about non-linear time which could imply God getting closer and closer and closer to saving everybody........

... or at least giving it a really good try?

Basically it would mean Ezekiel 37 being fulfilled over and over and over again as each new time line is spun off....... and I assume higher and higher and higher amounts of the Holy Spirit are poured out on all flesh to lead more people to repentance..... under somewhat easier conditions....... but the rewards for being one of the "few chosen" would be perhaps somewhat less than might be the case in a previous time line where less of the Holy Spirit was poured out.


The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Let me make sure I fully understand this......So Christ's sacrifice on the cross was on or is not sufficient for all, just some? There are people that God does not have the ability to forgive? I just want to be crystal clear about this.

As I said before based on scripture, Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But we have a responsibility too, to accept what He paid for, or reject it. Look at it this way. Vaccines have been made of a number of different disease/(or sins) for everybody, but if you reject the vaccination, you will get the disease. Was it the doctors fault you refused the vaccination? Or yours? A loving doctor made the vaccine and doesn't want anyone to perish from the disease of sin, but we are not robots. We have free will to not even believe in the disease, and go about our merry way, until it is too late. Why people want to blame the doctor is irrational.

But there is another false doctrines in the same family of false doctrines as U.S., but just the opposite. For this one, in the above analogy, the doctor made vaccines for only a few, and refused to give it to anyone not on his list. And the ones that ARE on his list, he pins them in a choke hold and gives them the vaccination whether they sought it or not. They say there is no such thing as free will.

It is hard for people entrenched in these false doctrines to see any other way. But at least you are asking the right questions, so there is hope for you.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why are the people who criticize doctrine, the last to pray for those who are suffering? It seems like people are trying to depopulate the church just by promoting so called sound doctrine. That's my heresy, feel free to examine.