LGBT+ Ally Christians?

PureWolf

Newbie
Feb 11, 2006
24
31
✟12,305.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is something that I have been thinking about for a while. Is it ok for Christians to be allies to the LGBT+ community? I am not an ally, but I do not deny their humanity nor do I treat them any different then I would someone else. I can be friends with, hang out with, etc. a member of the LGBT+ community, I just don't support who you are/what you do. I get it if it is a non-believer as an ally, but a Christian makes me scratch my head. My sister who is a Christian is an ally. We even had a disagreement when she said you shouldnt eat at Chick-Fil-A because they give some of the money they make to Christian churches/organizations for anti-LGBT purposes. I haven't researched that, but that's what she claims. I told her that they were entitled to their opinion, especially as an organization with religious values. She then asked me how I'd feel is the KKK was receiving money from a restaurant. She got bent out of shape when I told her I didn't see our race as the same thing as one's orientation. I reminded her that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin in which she pointed out that I am a sinner which I am fully aware of. I know that I am a sinner, but at the same time, I admit that my sins are indeed sins and want to move away from them. I feel that these Christian allies are either denying it is a sin or are like "yeah it's a sin, but we're going to support it!" I feel like if you are a Christian you shouldn't be an ally or participating in pride month and so on. Is there something I am not getting? Please help me to understand.
 

derpytia

Compassion.
Site Supporter
Feb 22, 2016
683
1,179
30
United States
✟287,998.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
As Christians we are called to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. For LGBT people, we are not to hurt them, treat them with disrespect, or do any sort of harm to them just as we are not to do those things to other people. In that respect, sticking up for them against people who do harm them in those ways for those reasons is just. However, saying that we should support them in their sin is not right. We would not want our fellow Christians to turn away from our sin and not call us out on it because, as parts of the Body of the Church, we are called to chastise/correct each other when needed as well as forgive and uplift.

In short: it is good to treat other people with kindness and stick up for them against evildoers regardless of whether they are in sin or not. But to support their sin is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Blood Bought 1953

Ned Flander’s Buddy
Oct 21, 2017
2,278
1,471
71
Portsmouth
✟81,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As Christians we are called to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. For LGBT people, we are not to hurt them, treat them with disrespect, or do any sort of harm to them just as we are not to do those things to other people. In that respect, sticking up for them against people who do harm them in those ways for those reasons is just. However, saying that we should support them in their sin is not right. We would not want our fellow Christians to turn away from our sin and not call us out on it because, as parts of the Body of the Church, we are called to chastise/correct each other when needed as well as forgive and uplift.

In short: it is good to treat other people with kindness and stick up for them against evildoers regardless of whether they are in sin or not. But to support their sin is wrong.

“Hate the sin.....love the sinner” comes to mind
 
  • Like
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,983
9,400
✟379,548.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I get it if it is a non-believer as an ally, but a Christian makes me scratch my head. My sister who is a Christian is an ally. We even had a disagreement when she said you shouldnt eat at Chick-Fil-A because they give some of the money they make to Christian churches/organizations for anti-LGBT purposes. I haven't researched that, but that's what she claims. I told her that they were entitled to their opinion, especially as an organization with religious values. She then asked me how I'd feel is the KKK was receiving money from a restaurant. She got bent out of shape when I told her I didn't see our race as the same thing as one's orientation. I reminded her that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin in which she pointed out that I am a sinner which I am fully aware of. I know that I am a sinner, but at the same time, I admit that my sins are indeed sins and want to move away from them. I feel that these Christian allies are either denying it is a sin or are like "yeah it's a sin, but we're going to support it!" I feel like if you are a Christian you shouldn't be an ally or participating in pride month and so on. Is there something I am not getting? Please help me to understand.
I think you're spot on in your assessment. If Jesus had been an "ally" to the tax collectors, he would have said it's OK to be greedy and dishonest because they were born that way. But of course, he didn't. He was able to humanize them and show them compassion without excusing what they did. That's what I try to do.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As Christians washed clean in the Blood of Christ, we are to uphold God's Holiness not promote sin.

We are not perfect but that should not be an excuse to condone what is clearly sin. We do not judge others according to our own standards but shine the light of God's holy standards.

With that, I think most of us have friends or acquaintances or work mates who are homosexual. We should shine the Light of the World Jesus Christ in word and deed (actions) with those who are not in Christ as an example of Christ. If asked we must give an account of our faith and Who is the source of our salvation. As said by Peter "to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed." (1 Peter 3:15-16).

Now on Chick fil A? The owner donates to Christian organizations who teach Biblical family values. Some have attacked that as "homophobic." Which means there are those who are not tolerant of others promoting what they see as holy living. I would consider those who attack Christians for teaching Biblical marriage are actually the intolerant ones.
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,417
45,383
67
✟2,924,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
From Huffington Post, a quick look back at the the LGBT and Chick-Fil-A:

QUEER VOICES
06/14/2016 11:26 am ET Updated Jun 16, 2016
Chick-Fil-A Opens On Sunday To Give Free Food To Orlando Shooting Blood Donors
The controversial company gave food to law enforcement working at the scene as well.

By Cavan Sieczkowski

Chick-fil-A typically closes on Sundays, but this Sunday was different.

Workers from the Chick-fil-A Lee Vista in Orlando, Florida, went to work Sunday to offer free food to those lining up to give blood to help those injured in the shooting at LGBT club Pulse.​

--David
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,812.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There is something that I have been thinking about for a while. Is it ok for Christians to be allies to the LGBT+ community? I am not an ally, but I do not deny their humanity nor do I treat them any different then I would someone else. I can be friends with, hang out with, etc. a member of the LGBT+ community, I just don't support who you are/what you do. I get it if it is a non-believer as an ally, but a Christian makes me scratch my head. My sister who is a Christian is an ally. We even had a disagreement when she said you shouldnt eat at Chick-Fil-A because they give some of the money they make to Christian churches/organizations for anti-LGBT purposes. I haven't researched that, but that's what she claims. I told her that they were entitled to their opinion, especially as an organization with religious values. She then asked me how I'd feel is the KKK was receiving money from a restaurant. She got bent out of shape when I told her I didn't see our race as the same thing as one's orientation. I reminded her that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin in which she pointed out that I am a sinner which I am fully aware of. I know that I am a sinner, but at the same time, I admit that my sins are indeed sins and want to move away from them. I feel that these Christian allies are either denying it is a sin or are like "yeah it's a sin, but we're going to support it!" I feel like if you are a Christian you shouldn't be an ally or participating in pride month and so on. Is there something I am not getting? Please help me to understand.

It is important to understand that the Bible does not say that homosexuality is a sin, but rather it says that homosexual sex is a sin. Homosexuality just means that someone has the temptation to sin in a specific area and while I don't struggle with that particular temptation, I do struggle with the temptation to sin in other areas. However, all sin is wrong, so the fact that we still sin doesn't justify any else's sin. Furthermore, the Bible does not say that we should treat anyone differently just because they are attracted to someone of the same gender, but if someone is caught in sin, but Bible does instruct us to gently restore them.

I think there is good evidence that homosexuality is at least caused in part by nurture, such as by childhood sexual abuse. If people didn't think that our desires influenced by advertising, then it wouldn't be a billion dollar industry. However, the issue of whether or not homosexuality is genetic is completely irrelevant because we are still responsible for the choice that we make. Alcoholism is also genetic, which can explain someone's alcoholism, but doesn't excuse. They are still responsible for their actions.

The comparison between Chick-Fil-A and the KKK is completely and utterly absurd. People are not homophobic racist bigots just because they disagree with someone's political position. In Muslim countries they kill homosexuals, so it is very strange to see the same people who compare Chik-Fil-A with the KKK turn around and supports Muslims.

So we can be friends with homosexuals, but no one who condones another person's sin is their ally.
 
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,358
1,748
55
✟77,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is it ok for Christians to be allies to the LGBT+ community?

What is your understanding of being an "ally" to homosexuals? If you mean calling homosexuality as a righteous thing before God as being an "ally", then you are walking in contradiction to the Christian faith. God has defined homosexuality to be a sin, it is very clear in scripture.

Try that with any other sin:

Are Christians an "ally" to those who lie?
Are Christians an "ally" to those who steal?
Are Christians an "ally" to those who murder?
Are Christians an "ally" to those who rape?
Are Christians an "ally" to those who commit adultery?
Are Christians an "ally" to those who commit idolatry?

I am not an ally, but I do not deny their humanity nor do I treat them any different then I would someone else.

No Christian that I have ever known has ever denied a homosexual their humanity. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuals are not humans.

I can be friends with, hang out with, etc. a member of the LGBT+ community, I just don't support who you are/what you do.

Ok, not a problem.

If God told us to not be friends with those who sin, we would have no friends at all, nor could we be near ourselves as well. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

she said you shouldnt eat at Chick-Fil-A because they give some of the money they make to Christian churches/organizations for anti-LGBT purposes.

I think you would have a hard time proving that. And whomever Chick-fil-a supports is up to them. Just as anyone can choose to not eat there. That is the freedom of a capitalistic society.

She got bent out of shape when I told her I didn't see our race as the same thing as one's orientation.

You are correct. Those who compare skin pigmentation to homosexuality are making a category error. It is not a sin to be a different skin pigmentation. However, God has defined homosexuality to be a sin.

I feel that these Christian allies are either denying it is a sin or are like "yeah it's a sin, but we're going to support it!" I feel like if you are a Christian you shouldn't be an ally or participating in pride month and so on. Is there something I am not getting?

I think you are on the right path. You are getting it. She is not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winken
Upvote 0

JoeP222w

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2015
3,358
1,748
55
✟77,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
“Hate the sin.....love the sinner” comes to mind

Not in the Bible.

God does not cast "sin" into Hell, He justly casts the unrepentant "sinner" into Hell. God does not separate the unrepentant sinner from their sin.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
There is something that I have been thinking about for a while. Is it ok for Christians to be allies to the LGBT+ community? I am not an ally, but I do not deny their humanity nor do I treat them any different then I would someone else. I can be friends with, hang out with, etc. a member of the LGBT+ community, I just don't support who you are/what you do. I get it if it is a non-believer as an ally, but a Christian makes me scratch my head. My sister who is a Christian is an ally. We even had a disagreement when she said you shouldnt eat at Chick-Fil-A because they give some of the money they make to Christian churches/organizations for anti-LGBT purposes. I haven't researched that, but that's what she claims. I told her that they were entitled to their opinion, especially as an organization with religious values. She then asked me how I'd feel is the KKK was receiving money from a restaurant. She got bent out of shape when I told her I didn't see our race as the same thing as one's orientation. I reminded her that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin in which she pointed out that I am a sinner which I am fully aware of. I know that I am a sinner, but at the same time, I admit that my sins are indeed sins and want to move away from them. I feel that these Christian allies are either denying it is a sin or are like "yeah it's a sin, but we're going to support it!" I feel like if you are a Christian you shouldn't be an ally or participating in pride month and so on. Is there something I am not getting? Please help me to understand.

I will certainly eat at Chick-Fil-A. We are to love all people, including homosexuals. However, we are not to support organizations that try to make wrong, right.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
…I am not an ally, but I do not deny their humanity nor do I treat them any different then I would someone else…

I think that is ok, because:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Disciples of Jesus (“Christians”) are encouraged to love all people and treat them well.

… I can be friends with, hang out with, etc. a member of the LGBT+ community, I just don't support who you are/what you do...

I think being with them, supports them and what they do. Bible tells about this kind of thing:

Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what communion has light with darkness? What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever? What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore, "'Come out from among them, And be separate,' says the Lord, 'Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you.
2 Cor. 6:14-17

But if you remain with them, be careful and:

Don't be deceived! "Evil companionships corrupt good morals."
1 Cor. 15:33

:)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I reminded her that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin
It does in modern Bibles. However....the word "homosexuality" is a fairly modern word (not being used until around the 16th century, if I recall correctly) and a lot of people may be presuming a modern definition of the word (meaning = "same sex relationships") when the Bible's original interpretation most likely meant something different (idol worship practices). Have you read the whole context of passages where the word "homosexuality" appears?
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It does in modern Bibles. However....the word "homosexuality" is a fairly modern word (not being used until around the 16th century, if I recall correctly) and a lot of people may be presuming a modern definition of the word (meaning = "same sex relationships") when the Bible's original interpretation most likely meant something different (idol worship practices). Have you read the whole context of passages where the word "homosexuality" appears?

Romans is pretty clear that lust for the same sex is abhorent to God. Everyone struggles with sin, sexual or otherwise. To excuse feelings, thoughts, desires,or inclinations which violate God's will for us is not loving, or ultimately helpful. We can and should with Christ's help say no to feelings or wants which take us away from how God has created us, and what He asks of us to do, or not do.

We also can and should treat our neighbors with love and charity, no matter who they are attracted to, or how they live out their feelings. And if given a chance to speak out against sin, should do so, to.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
In the vast majority of cases one's sexual orientation is as inherent as ones' race. I also think that the biblical attitude toward homosexuality is based on a cultural bias or mistaken understanding and is not God ordained. Moreover there is a great deal of misunderstanding about what the "anti-homosexual passages" actually mean. The best exposition of this is in the essay below by a leading Bible scholar the late Walter Wink.

Homosexuality and the Bible by Walter Wink

Professor of Biblical Interpretation, Auburn Theological Seminary, New York City.


***Homosexuality and the Bible


Sexual issues are tearing our churches apart today as never before. The issue of homosexuality threatens to fracture whole denominations, as the issue of slavery did one hundred and fifty years ago. We naturally turn to the Bible for guidance and find ourselves mired in interpretive quicksand. Is the Bible able to speak to our confusion on this issue?


The debate over homosexuality is a remarkable opportunity, because it raises in an especially acute way how we interpret the Bible, not in this case only, but in numerous others as well. The real issue here, then, is not simply homosexuality, but how Scripture informs our lives today.


Some passages that have been advanced as pertinent to the issue of homosexuality are, in fact, irrelevant. One is the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Gen. 19: 1-29). That was a case of ostensibly heterosexual males intent on humiliating strangers by treating them "like women," thus demasculinizing them. (This is also the case in a similar account in Judges 19-21.) Their brutal behavior has nothing to do with the problem of whether genuine love expressed between consenting persons of the same sex is legitimate or not. Likewise, Deuteronomy 23:17-18 must be pruned from the list, since it most likely refers to a heterosexual prostitute involved in Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish worship; the King James Version inaccurately labeled him a "sodomite."


Several other texts are ambiguous. It is not clear whether I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 refer to the "passive" and "active" partners in homosexual relationships, or to homosexual and heterosexual male prostitutes. In short, it is unclear whether the issue is homosexuality alone, or promiscuity and "sex-for-hire."


***Unequivocal Condemnations


Putting these texts to the side, we are left with three references, all of which unequivocally condemn homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 states the principle: "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." The second (Lev. 20:13) adds the penalty: "If a man lies with a male as a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them."


Such an act was considered as an "abomination" for several reasons. The Hebrew prescientific understanding was that male sperm contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the woman provided only the incubating space. Hence the spilling of sperm for any non-procreative purpose -- in coitus interruptus (Gen 38:1-11), male homosexual acts or male masturbation -- was considered tantamount to abortion or murder. (Female homosexual acts and masturbation were consequently not so seriously regarded.) One can appreciate how a tribe struggling to populate a country in which its people were outnumbered would value procreation highly, but such values are rendered questionable in a world facing total annihilation through overpopulation.


In addition, when a man acted like a woman sexually, male dignity was compromised. It was a degradation, not only in regard to himself, but for every other male. The patriarchalism of Hebrew culture shows its hand in the very formulation of the commandment, since no similar stricture was formulated to forbid homosexual acts between females. And the repugnance felt toward homosexuality was not just that it was deemed unnatural but also that it was considered unJewish, representing yet one more incursion of pagan civilization into Jewish life. On top of that is the more universal repugnance heterosexuals tend to feel for acts and orientations foreign to them. (Left-handedness has evoked something of the same response in many cultures).


***Persons committing homosexual acts are to be executed. This is the unambiguous command of scripture.


Whatever the rationale for their formulation, however, the texts leave no room for maneuvering. Persons committing homosexual acts are to be executed. This is the unambiguous command of scripture. The meaning is clear: anyone who wishes to base his or her beliefs on the witness of the Old Testament must be completely consistent and demand the death penalty for everyone who performs homosexual acts. (That may seem extreme, but there are actually some "Christians" urging this very thing today.) It is unlikely that any American court will ever again condemn a homosexual to death, even though Scripture clearly commands it.


Old Testament texts have to be weighed against the New. Consequently Paul's unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Roman 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion.


***‘For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their woman exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.’


No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does. He seemed to assume that those whom he condemns are heterosexual, and are acting contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up," or "exchanging" their regular sexual orientation for that which is foreign to them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychological understanding of homosexuals as persons whose orientation is fixed early in life, persons for whom having heterosexual relations would be contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up" or "exchanging" their natural sexual orientation for one that was unnatural to them.


In other words, Paul really thought that those whose behavior he condemned were "straight," and that they were behaving in ways that were unnatural to them. Paul believed that everyone was "straight." He had no concept of homosexual orientation. The idea was not available in his world. There are people who are genuinely homosexual by nature (whether genetically or as a result of upbringing no one really knows, and it is irrelevant). For such a person it would be acting contrary to nature to have sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex.


Likewise the relationships Paul describes are heavy with lust; they are not relationships of consenting adults who are committed to each other as faithfully and with as much integrity as any heterosexual couple. That was something Paul simply could not envision. Some people assume today that venereal disease and AIDS are divine punishment for homosexual behavior; we know it as a risk involved in promiscuity of every stripe, homosexual and heterosexual. In fact, the vast majority of people with AIDS around the world are heterosexuals. We can scarcely label AIDS a divine punishment, since non-promiscuous lesbians are at almost no risk.


And Paul believes that homosexuality is contrary to nature, whereas we have learned that it is manifested by a wide variety of species, especially (but not solely) under the pressure of overpopulation. It would appear then to be a quite natural mechanism for preserving species. We cannot, of course, decide human ethical conduct solely on the basis of animal behavior or the human sciences, but Paul here is arguing from nature, as he himself says, and new knowledge of what is "natural" is therefore relevant to the case.


***Hebrew Sexual Mores


Nevertheless, the Bible quite clearly takes a negative view of homosexual activity. In those few instances where it is mentioned at all. But this conclusion does not solve the problem of how we are to interpret Scripture today. For there are other sexual attitudes, practices, and restrictions which are normative in Scripture but which we no longer accept as normative:


*Old Testament law strictly forbids sexual intercourse during the seven days of the menstrual period (Lev. 18:19; 15:18-24), and anyone who engaged in it was to be "extirpated," or "cut off from their people (kareth, Lev. 18:29, a term referring to execution by stoning, burning, strangling, or to flogging or expulsion; Lev. 15:24 omits this penalty). Today many people on occasion have intercourse during menstruation and think nothing of it. Are they sinners?


* Nudity, the characteristic of paradise, was regarded in Judaism as reprehensible (II Sam. 6:20; 10:4; Isa. 20:2-4; 47:3). When one of Noah's sons beheld his father naked, he was cursed (Gen 9:20-27). To a great extent, this taboo probably even inhibited the sexual intimacy of husbands and wives (this is still true of a surprising number of people reared in the Judeo-Christian tradition). We may not be prepared for nude beaches, but are we prepared to regard nudity in the locker room or at the old swimming hole or in the privacy of one's home as an accursed sin? The Bible does.


***So if the Bible allowed polygamy and concubinage, why don't we?


* Polygamy (many wives) and concubinage (a woman living with a man to whom she is not married) were regularly practiced in the Old Testament. Neither is ever condemned by the New Testament (with the questionable exceptions of I Timothy 3:2,12 and Titus 1:6). Jesus teaching about marital union in Mark 10:6-8 is no exception, since he quotes Gen. 2:24 as his authority (the man and the woman will become "one flesh"), and this text was never understood in Israel as excluding polygamy. A man could become "one flesh" with more than one woman, through the act of sexual intercourse. We know from Jewish sources that polygamy continued to be practiced within Judaism for centuries following the New Testament period. So if the Bible allowed polygamy and concubinage, why don't we?


* A form of polygamy was the levirate marriage. When a married man in Israel died childless, his widow was to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bore him a male heir. Jesus mentions this custom without criticism (Mark 12:18-27 par.) I am not aware of any Christians who still obey this unambiguous commandment of Scripture. Why is this law ignored, and the one against homosexual behavior preserved?


* The Old Testament nowhere explicitly prohibits sexual relations between unmarried consenting adults, as long as the woman's economic value (bride price) is not compromised, that is to say, as long as she is not a virgin. There are poems in the Song of Songs that eulogize a love affair between two unmarried persons, though commentators have often conspired to cover up the fact with heavy layers of allegorical interpretation. In various parts of the Christian world, quite different attitudes have prevailed about sexual intercourse before marriage. In some Christian communities, proof of fertility (that is, pregnancy) was required for marriage. This was especially the case in farming areas where the inability to produce children-workers could mean economic hardship. Today, many single adults, the widowed, and the divorced are reverting to "biblical" practice, while others believe that sexual intercourse belongs only within marriage. Which is right?


* The Bible virtually lacks terms for the sexual organs, being content with such euphemisms as "foot" or "thigh" for the genitals, and using other euphemisms to describe coitus, such as "he knew her." Today most of us regard such language as "puritanical" and contrary to a proper regard for the goodness of creation. In short, we don't follow Biblical practice.


* sperm and menstrual blood rendered all who touched them unclean (Lev. 15:16-24). Intercourse rendered one unclean until sundown; menstruation rendered the woman unclean for seven days. Today most people would regard sperm and menstrual fluid as completely natural and only at times "messy," not "unclean."


* Social regulations regarding adultery, incest, rape and prostitution are, in the Old Testament, determined largely by considerations of the males' property rights over women. Prostitution was considered quite natural and necessary as a safeguard of the virginity of the unmarried and the property rights of husbands (Gen. 38:12-19; Josh. 2:1-7). A man was not guilty of sin for visiting a prostitute, though the prostitute herself was regarded as a sinner. Even Paul must appeal to reason in attacking prostitution (I Cor. 6:12-20); he cannot lump it in the category of adultery (vs. 9). Today we are moving, with great social turbulence and at a high but necessary cost toward a more equitable, non-patriarchal set of social arrangements in which women are no longer regarded as the chattel of men. We are also trying to move beyond the double standard. Love, fidelity and mutual respect replace property rights. We have, as yet, made very little progress in changing the double standard in regard to prostitution. As we leave behind patriarchal gender relations, what will we do with the patriarchalism in the Bible?


* Jews were supposed to practice endogamy -- that is, marriage within the 12 tribes of Israel. Until recently a similar rule prevailed in the American south, in laws against interracial marriage (miscegenation). We have witnessed, within the lifetime of many of us, the nonviolent struggle to nullify state laws against intermarriage and the gradual change in social attitudes towards interracial relationships. Sexual mores can alter quite radically even in a single lifetime.


* The law of Moses allowed for divorce (Deut. 24:1-4); Jesus categorically forbids it (Mark 10:1-12; Matt, 19:9 softens his severity). Yet many Christians, in clear violation of a command of Jesus, have been divorced. Why, then, do some of these very people consider themselves eligible for baptism, church membership, communion, and ordination, but not homosexuals? What makes the one so much greater a sin than the other, especially considering the fact that Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality but explicitly condemned divorce? Yet we ordain divorcees. Why not homosexuals?


* The Old Testament regarded celibacy as abnormal and I Timothy 4:1-3 calls compulsory celibacy a heresy. Yet the Catholic Church has made it mandatory for priests and nuns. Some Christian ethicists demand celibacy of homosexuals, whether they have a vocation for celibacy or not. But this legislates celibacy by category, not by divine calling. Others argue that since God made men and women for each other in order to be fruitful and multiply, homosexuals reject God's intent in creation. But this would mean that childless couples, single persons, priests and nuns would be in violation of God's intention in their creation. Those who argue thus must explain why the apostle Paul never married. Are they prepared to charge Jesus with violating the will of God by remaining single? Certainly heterosexual marriage is normal, else the race would die out. But it is not normative. God can bless the world through people who are married and through people who are single, and it is false to generalize from the marriage of most people to the marriage of everyone. In I Cor. 7:7, Paul goes so far as to call marriage a "charisma," or divine gift, to which not everyone is called. He preferred that people remain as he was - unmarried. In an age of overpopulation, perhaps a gay orientation is especially sound ecologically!


* In many other ways we have developed different norms from those explicitly laid down by the Bible: "If men get into a fight with one another and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand" (Deut 25:11 f). We, on the contrary, might very well applaud her for trying to save her husband's life!


* The Old and New Testaments both regarded slavery as normal and nowhere categorically condemned it. Part of that heritage was the use of female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual toys, breeding machines, or involuntary wives by their male owners, which II Samuel 5:13, Judges 19-21, and Numbers 31:17-20 permitted -- and as many American slave owners did some 150 years ago, citing these and numerous other Scripture passages as their justification.


***The Problem of Authority


These cases are relevant to our attitude toward the authority of Scripture. they are not cultic prohibitions from the Holiness Code that are clearly superseded in Christianity, such as rules about eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two different materials. They are rules concerning sexual behavior, and they fall among the moral commandments of the Scripture. Clearly we regard certain rules, especially in the Old Testament, as no longer binding. Other things we regard as binding, including legislation in the Old Testament that is not mentioned at all in the New. What is our principle of selection here?


For example; virtually all modern readers would agree with the Bible in rejecting:

· incest

· rape

· adultery

· intercourse with animals


But we disagree with the Bible on most other sexual mores. The Bible condemned the following behaviors which we generally allow:

· intercourse during menstruation

· celibacy

· exogamy (marriage with non-Jews)

· naming sexual organs

· nudity (under certain conditions)

· masturbation (some Christians still condemn this)

· birth control (some Christians still forbid this)

· And the bible regarded sperm and menstrual blood as unclean, which most of us do not


Likewise, the bible permitted behaviors that we today condemn:

· prostitution

· polygamy

· levirate marriage

· sex with slaves

· concubinage

· treatment of women as property

· very early marriage (for the girl, age 11-13)


And while the Old Testament accepted divorce, Jesus forbade it. In short, of the sexual mores mentioned here, we only agree with the Bible on four of them, and disagree with it on sixteen!


Surely no one today would recommend reviving the levirate marriage. So why do we appeal to proof texts in Scripture in the case of homosexuality alone, when we feel perfectly free to disagree with Scripture regarding most other sexual practices? Obviously many of our choices in these matters are arbitrary. Mormon polygamy was outlawed in this country, despite the constitutional protection of freedom of religion, because it violated the sensibilities of the dominant Christian culture, even though no explicit biblical prohibition against polygamy exists.


If we insist on placing ourselves under the old law, as Paul reminds us, we are obligated to keep every commandment of the law (Gal. 5:3). But if Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4), if we have been discharged from the law to serve, not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6), then all of these Old Testament sexual mores come under the authority of the Spirit. We cannot then take even what Paul says as a new law. Christians reserve the right to pick and choose which laws they will observe, though they seldom admit to doing just that. And this is as true of evangelicals and fundamentalists as it is of liberals and mainliners.


***Judge for Yourselves


The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic. There is no biblical sex ethic. Instead it exhibits a variety of sexual mores, some of which changed over the thousand-year span of biblical history. Mores are unreflective customs accepted by a given community. Many of the practices that the Bible prohibits, we allow, and many that it allows, we prohibit. The Bible only knows a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given country, culture, or period.


The very notion of a "sex ethic" reflects the materialism and splitness of modern life, in which we increasingly define our identity sexually. Sexuality cannot be separated off from the rest of life. No sex act is "ethical" in and of itself, without reference to the rest of a person's life, the patterns of the culture, the special circumstances faced, and the will of God. What we have are simply sexual mores, which change, sometimes with startling rapidity, creating bewildering dilemmas. Just within one lifetime we have witnessed the shift from the ideal of preserving one's virginity until marriage, to couples living together for several years before getting married. The response of many Christians is merely to long for the hypocrisies of an earlier era.


I agree that rules and norms are necessary: that is what sexual mores are. But rules and norms also tend to be impressed into the service of the Domination System, and to serve as a form of crowd control rather than to enhance the fullness of human potential. So we must critique the sexual mores of any given time and clime by the love ethic exemplified by Jesus. Such a love ethic is non-exploitive (hence, no sexual exploitation of children, no using of another to their loss), it does not dominate (hence, no patriarchal treatment of women as chattel), it is responsible, mutual, caring, and loving. Augustine already dealt with this is his inspired phrase, "Love God, and do as you please."


Our moral task, then, is to apply Jesus' love ethic to whatever sexual mores are prevalent in a given culture. This doesn't mean everything goes. It means that everything is to be critiqued by Jesus' love commandment. We might address younger teens, not with laws and commandments whose violation is a sin, but rather with the sad experiences of so many of our own children who find too much early sexual intimacy overwhelming, and who react by voluntary celibacy and even the refusal to date. We can offer reasons, not empty and unenforceable orders. We can challenge both gays and straights to question their behaviors in the light of love and the requirements of fidelity, honesty, responsibility, and genuine concern for the best interests of the other and of society as a whole.


Christian morality, after all, is not an iron chastity belt for repressing urges, but a way of expressing the integrity of our relationship with God. It is the attempt to discover a manner of living that is consistent with who God created us to be. For those of same-sex orientation, as for heterosexuals, being moral means rejecting sexual mores that violate their own integrity and that of others, and attempting to discover what it would mean to live by the love ethic of Jesus.


Morton Kelsey goes so far as to argue that homosexual orientation has nothing to do with morality, any more than left-handedness does. it is simply the way some people's sexuality is configured. Morality enters the picture when that predisposition is enacted. If we saw it as a God-given-gift to those for whom it is normal, we could get beyond the acrimony and brutality that have so often characterized the unchristian behavior of Christians toward gays.


Approached from the point of view of love, rather than that of law, the issue is at once transformed. Now the question is not "What is permitted?" but rather "What does it mean to love my homosexual neighbor?" Approached from the point of view of faith rather than of works, the question ceases to be "What constitutes a breach of divine law in the sexual realm?" and becomes instead "What constitutes obedience to the God revealed in the cosmic lover, Jesus Christ?" Approached from the point of view of the Spirit of the rather than of the letter, the question ceases to be "What does Scripture command?" and becomes "What is the Word that the Spirit speaks to the churches now, in the light of Scripture, tradition, theology, psychology, genetics, anthropology, and biology?" We can't continue to build ethics on the basis of bad science.


In a little-remembered statement, Jesus said, "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57). Such sovereign freedom strikes terror in the hearts of many Christians; they would rather be under law and be told what is right. Yet Paul himself echoes Jesus' sentiment immediately preceding one of his possible references to homosexuality: "Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!" (I Cor. 6:3). The last thing Paul would want is for people to respond to his ethical advice as a new law engraved on tablets of stone. He is himself trying to "judge for himself what is right." If now new evidence is in on the phenomenon of homosexuality, are we not obligated -- no, free -- to re-evaluate the whole issue in the light of all available data and decide, under God, for ourselves? Is this not the radical freedom for obedience which the gospel establishes?


Where the bible mentions homosexual behavior at all, it clearly condemns it. I freely grant all that. The issue is precisely whether that Biblical judgment is correct. The Bible sanctioned slavery as well, and nowhere attacks it as unjust. Are we prepared to argue that slavery today is biblically justified? One hundred and fifty years ago when the debate over slavery was raging, the bible seemed to be clearly on the slave holders' side. Abolitionists were hard pressed to justify their opposition to slavery on biblical grounds. Yet today, if you were to ask Christians in the South whether the Bible sanctions slavery, virtually everyone would agree that it does not. How do we account for such a monumental shift?


What happened is that the churches were finally driven to penetrate beyond the legal tenor of Scripture to an even deeper tenor, articulated by Israel out of the experience of the Exodus and the prophets and brought to sublime embodiment in Jesus' identification with harlots, tax collectors, the diseased and maimed and outcast and poor. It is that God suffers with the suffering and groans toward the reconciliation of all things. Therefore, Jesus went out of his way to declare forgiven, and to reintegrate into society in all details, those who were identified as "sinners" by virtue of the accidents of birth, or biology, or economic desperation. In the light of that supernal compassion, whatever our position on gays, the gospel's imperative to love, care for, and be identified with their sufferings is unmistakably clear.


In the same way, women are pressing us to acknowledge the sexism and patriarchalism that pervades Scripture and has alienated so many women from the church. The way out, however, is not to deny the sexism in Scripture, but to develop an interpretive theory that judges even Scripture in the light of the revelation in Jesus. What Jesus gives us is a critique of domination in all its forms, a critique that can be can be turned on the Bible itself. The Bible thus contains the principles of its own correction. We are freed from bibliolatry, the worship of the Bible. It is restored to its proper place as witness to the Word of God. And that word is a Person, not a book.


"With the interpretive grid provided by a critique of domination, we are able to filter out the sexism, patriarchalism, violence, and homophobia that are very much a part of the Bible, thus liberating it to reveal to us in fresh ways the inbreaking, in our time of God's domination-free order.


***An Appeal for Tolerance


What saddens me in this whole raucous debate in the churches is how sub-Christian most of it has been. It is characteristic of our time that the issues most difficult to assess, and which have generated the greatest degree of animosity, are issues on which the Bible can be interpreted as supporting either side. I am referring to abortion and homosexuality.


We need to take a few steps back, and be honest with ourselves. I am deeply convinced of the rightness of what I have said in this essay. But I must acknowledge that it is not an airtight case. You can find weaknesses in it, just as I can in others'. The truth is, we are not given unequivocal guidance in either area, abortion or homosexuality. Rather than tearing at each others' throats, therefore, we should humbly admit our limitations. How do I know I am correctly interpreting God's word for us today? How do you? Wouldn't it be wiser to lower the decibels by 95 percent and quietly present our beliefs, knowing full well that we might be wrong.


I know a couple, both well known Christian authors in their own right, who have both spoken out on the issue of homosexuality. She supports gays, passionately; he opposes their behavior, strenuously. So far as I can tell, this couple still enjoy each other's company, eat at the same table, and, for all I know, sleep in the same bed. [He is speaking of the Campolos. See http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm for a debate between Peggy and Tony Campolo.]


We in the church need to get our priorities straight. We have not reached a consensus about who is right on the issue of homosexuality. But what is clear, utterly clear, is that we are commanded to love one another. Love not just our gay sisters and brothers, who are often sitting besides us, unacknowledged, in church, but all of us who are involved in this debate. These are issues about which we should amiably agree to disagree. We don't have to tear whole denominations to shreds in order to air our differences on this point. If that couple I mentioned can continue to embrace across this divide, surely we can do so as well.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: tansy
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,564
18,498
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,133.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Plenty of Christians are LGBT allies. My denomination, the ELCA, supports the civil rights of all people, regardless of sexual orientation. There are many more like us, but we tend not to be represented well on Christian Forums.

As far as I know, Chic-fil-A has taken some steps to be more considerate of LGBT individuals and their allies. Not everybody that is LGBT or an ally boycotts Chic-Fil-A.

Discussing this matter fully is beyond the scope or protocol of this forum, unfortunately. You're going to have to do the homework yourself. Not everybody this is a Christian has a narrow understanding of what it means to follow Jesus. Christianity is a very diverse religious movement, with alot of different interpretations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,008.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
As you can see, there are varying degrees of ally. Support for legal rights is pretty common among Christians. Acceptance of same-gender sex is actually pretty common as well, but can't be defended in this forum. I believe the only place you can ask about it is the Liberal forum. (A couple of denominational forums are also OK, but discussions there would be specific to that denomination.)
 
Upvote 0