Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

[DennisTate]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?


While the answer to the question is an unequivocal yes, the abode of evil and wickedness and the powers and the principalities that we wrestle against do not exist in the abstract, but dwell in the minds of flesh and blood people.
To draw blood and to rip flesh therefore is of little benefit. The lies behind the power of wickedness will still be believed in.
To battle against spiritual wickedness involves subjecting the darkness of the lie to the light of truth.

That is the nature of the battlefield upon which we are to engage.

Yes..... and both my daughter and I enjoyed this sermon on the topic a few days ago:

 

[kjw47]

True........ and this verse in Isaiah indicates that eventually.......
the government of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus must begin to be restored even in
the realms of the fallen angels.


Isaiah 9:7

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Yes, a followers duty is to-OBEY-every teaching Jesus gave to us. That is what proves ones love for him. If one is not obeying, lip service gets one no where--even if they believe.

 

[SBC]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels....

No.

not each other?

Correct.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[he-man]

Hmmm... Not sure what you mean. And I don't recall implying that 'wiles' were demons.

you said "there are real demons in the world". I quoted that the wiles of the world are the wicked. No demons, devils, vampires, witches.

 

[Phantasman]

Human beings in their rages and power struggles are not very difficult to figure out. There isn't much mystery in any of it, really. It is very predictable.

Did Urban not pronounce those words in the context of a Crusade against the Moslems?

I'm sure he did. But it isn't the Gospel message, far from it. He saw HIS kingdom as that of this earth. Clearly against what Christ taught.

John:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It wasn't just Islam Popes killed, how about the Cathers?

The church of Christ is spiritual, not of the flesh, IMO. That's another god, the one Jesus said the Jews followed who was a murderer. No different than stoning someone to death, like Stephen, for seeing differently.

Islam is from Ishmael. Christianity is based on the Gospel, not the OT. To drop the OT is to see the clarity of the Father.

 

[Vicomte13]

I'm sure he did. But it isn't the Gospel message, far from it. He saw HIS kingdom as that of this earth. Clearly against what Christ taught.

John:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It wasn't just Islam Popes killed, how about the Cathers?

The church of Christ is spiritual, not of the flesh, IMO. That's another god, the one Jesus said the Jews followed who was a murderer. No different than stoning someone to death, like Stephen, for seeing differently.

Islam is from Ishmael. Christianity is based on the Gospel, not the OT. To drop the OT is to see the clarity of the Father.

Well, violent heresies such as Islam are from Satan, and were overrunning and destroying Christianity with great slaughter. HALF of the ancient Christian world was lost to Islam - HALF of it. The other half was preserved, or taken back from the Muslims, through war and war alone.

So, Christianity survived BECAUSE it took up the sword and fought. In the West, Catholicism fought it successfully. In the East, the Byzantine Empire failed in its long fight against it, and was swallowed up. Christianity survived in the European parts, but in Turkey, in the Levant, in North Africa, in Egypt, in Iraq, it was crushed down to an oppressed (and shrinking) minority.

A different view would be that to fight Islam and other heresies was to fight the devil directly - that people went over to the Devil and worship him, and take up the sword to conquer the Kingdom of Christ, which is Christendom. Christians, then, had to take up the sword in response or be overwhelmed and crushed. They DID take up the sword, were called forth by the Pope to fight in unity, and the Pope was inspired by God to call for Crusade and to bless the soldiers who volunteered and fought with God's promise of forgiveness and salvation.
(Remember, please, that to the people whose view you don't accept, God lives in the Church on an ongoing basis, so it it illegitimate to up the Scriptures AGAINST the Church - can God be divided against God? Of course not. And, as said above, on matters of faith and morals, the Catholic Church IS God, because the Holy Spirit dwells there and animates it.)

Obviously you're not going to agree with this, but this is why people like me don't see it your way. Jesus said what he said through the Gospels, but God has interpreted the Gospels for us and told us what he meant. When the Catholic Church speaks on these things, that IS God speaking. God is more authoritative than human beings when it comes to Scripture. The Catholic Church IS Scripture - ongoing Scripture - it IS God speaking, here and now. The Scripture is merely the record of what God said BACK THEN, but the Catholic Church is God speaking in the here and now. So the Bible is a record, but not a law book. The Catholic Church is God giving the Law now, and from age to age. And just as God changed the law in the Bible from OT to NT, embracing new people and situations, God continues to reveal the law and his intent from year to year by speaking aloud today, through the Catholic Church.

Of course you're not going to accept that, but that's what I believe.

Catholics just don't believe the same things about the way God works that you do.
To you, the Bible is final. To us, the Bible is a history book written by the Church. God's authority is final, and God lives IN the Catholic Church and speaks THROUGH the Catholic Church, so therefore the Catholic Church's interpretation of the Bible is God telling the world what the Bible means, whereas anybody picking up the Bible and reading it is just relying on his own impressions.

Needless to say, there's never going to be meeting of the minds between us on this matter, but you should at least understand WHY Catholics think as they think, WHY your arguments from Scripture fall on deaf ears there on subjects on which God has given further revelation (such as matters regarding Mary that are not revealed in Scripture but were revealed later).

 

[DennisTate]

Mark 12:25 we shall be like the Angels in heaven they neither marry or are given in marriage" so where does that leave your fallen Angel?

Actually....... Azazel King of the Watchers and the 208 Watchers who fell with him where not angels.......
they were sons of G-d.

 

[DennisTate]

you said "there are real demons in the world". I quoted that the wiles of the world are the wicked. No demons, devils, vampires, witches.

Then how could the wise men and sorcerers of Pharaoh do similar miracles to those of Moses?


Exodus 7:11

"Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."

 

[DennisTate]

The last will be first and the first will be last.

Think, for a minute, if that principle really applies to all souls. Thus you have man standing in judgment of the angels.

Whether there should be mercy or hope for the fallen angels or Satan is an interesting speculation.

But let's move down a rung. Man will judge the angels. That has been revealed. Suppose what has also been revealed but not understood is that sheep will judge men.

Jesus is, after all, the Lamb of God, and in John's Revelation, at the height of the revelation in Heaven, he did not see Jesus standing there before the sealed scroll: he saw a lamb.

Suppose Jesus is not simply a god-man, but also a god-sheep. He will judge the angels as a man, and man as a man, but suppose for a moment that he will also judge man as a lamb - as a sheep.

How would the sheep judge men?

"You take our babies and eat them. You take the milk we make for our babies. You eat our flesh. You skin us. You slit our throats for your bizarre religious rituals."

Are we not demons to the sheep? Smarter than they are. Immensely stronger. More cunning. We lead them easily. They follow peacefully. And we slaughter them all. We take their babies and kill them and eat them. All of them. Are we ever kind to any sheep?

Suppose the Lamb of God judges us as a Lamb, for the sheep.

Would the only possible atonement be for us to realize that we stand, in relation to the sheep, as the demons do in relationship to us, and choose, of our own volition, to reduce the pleasure of our lives by ceasing to eat the offspring of our subject species?

Would we not say that the demons would have to do the same, to have any "hope" of being forgiven?

Or do we believe that we've just gotta eat the babies of the weakest, and the demons, too, just gotta eat our souls and bodies, because for us to do without their flesh, or for the demons to do without ours, would be just too inconvenient and take the savor out of life?

Can the demons be saved if they keep eating us?
Can the humans be saved if we keep eating the lambs?

Can I quote this post over into the Ethics forum?

Christian Philosophy & Ethics

I have been thinking about this a lot since your wrote this yesterday.


Isaiah11:9

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Isaiah 65:25

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

Former Atheist Howard Storm was shown that by the year 2185 God wanted to make the earth
utopian / millennial...... and animals were going to greatly benefit from the changes in us humans.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.



What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.



People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.



Animals lived with people, in harmony.



People, in this best of all worlds, weren't interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

 

[Vicomte13]

Then how could the wise men and sorcerers of Pharaoh do similar miracles to those of Moses?

By the power of their (lesser) gods. Each of the plagues of Egypt is specific, and some of them are odd, or repetitive. They make sense when you realize that what YHWH is having Moses do is convey a direct threat to Pharaoh concerning a specific force of nature or phenomenon that is under the control of a specific Egyptian god or goddess. YHWH then takes bodily control of the creatures and elements under the control of that deity, and demonstrates that he, YHWH, has command over the gods themselves.

At the lower levels of things, the Egyptian gods can indeed perform minor miracles. But YHWH's power overmasters them. At the higher end of things, the greatest of all of the gods of Egypt - Ra - god of the sun, and father of the line of the pharaohs (in Egyptian belief) has his control of the sun wrested from him directly, not by an eclipse, but by a penetrating darkness that touches only Egypt. By this miracle, YHWH shuts off the sun, demonstrating that he is God of gods, the Most high God, the Lord of lords - giving even the sunlight itself to the people of his choosing, and denying the heir of the god of the sun himself the sunlight in his realm.

Recall that the ancients worshiped the nature gods and goddesses so that nature would be kind to them with rains, sunshine, and keep disaster away. That was the POINT of their sacrifices and rituals: to appease nature. By the ten plagues, YHWH showed that he was the master over all of their gods, and that their gods were powerless to protect Pharaoh and the Egyptians against him, that they served him.

Note that Pharaoh actually got the message very quickly - he was ready to let the Hebrews go after only a couple of the miracles - but that it was YHWH himself who kept hardening Pharaoh's heart, overriding Pharaoh's own free will, explicitly so that He could humble Egypt further, so that he could humiliate all of the major Egyptian gods, one by one.

So, it was the lesser gods of Egypt who performed the lesser miracle at the request of the Egyptian sorcerers. They had no power inherent to themselves.

Who were the gods of Egypt? Angels, obviously.

 

[Vicomte13]

Can I quote this post over into the Ethics forum?

Christian Philosophy & Ethics

I have been thinking about this a lot since your wrote this yesterday.


Isaiah11:9

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Isaiah 65:25

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

Former Atheist Howard Storm was shown that by the year 2185 God wanted to make the earth
utopian / millennial...... and animals were going to greatly benefit from the changes in us humans.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

If you want to, you can. I don't suppose that a whole lot of people really CARE what happens to the demons and devils and Satan. Nor do they care what happens to the sheep. That is fine. Just looking after our own garden is a lifetime's work.

 

[Phantasman]

Well, violent heresies such as Islam are from Satan, and were overrunning and destroying Christianity with great slaughter. HALF of the ancient Christian world was lost to Islam - HALF of it. The other half was preserved, or taken back from the Muslims, through war and war alone.

So, Christianity survived BECAUSE it took up the sword and fought. In the West, Catholicism fought it successfully. In the East, the Byzantine Empire failed in its long fight against it, and was swallowed up. Christianity survived in the European parts, but in Turkey, in the Levant, in North Africa, in Egypt, in Iraq, it was crushed down to an oppressed (and shrinking) minority.

A different view would be that to fight Islam and other heresies was to fight the devil directly - that people went over to the Devil and worship him, and take up the sword to conquer the Kingdom of Christ, which is Christendom. Christians, then, had to take up the sword in response or be overwhelmed and crushed. They DID take up the sword, were called forth by the Pope to fight in unity, and the Pope was inspired by God to call for Crusade and to bless the soldiers who volunteered and fought with God's promise of forgiveness and salvation.
(Remember, please, that to the people whose view you don't accept, God lives in the Church on an ongoing basis, so it it illegitimate to up the Scriptures AGAINST the Church - can God be divided against God? Of course not. And, as said above, on matters of faith and morals, the Catholic Church IS God, because the Holy Spirit dwells there and animates it.)

Obviously you're not going to agree with this, but this is why people like me don't see it your way. Jesus said what he said through the Gospels, but God has interpreted the Gospels for us and told us what he meant. When the Catholic Church speaks on these things, that IS God speaking. God is more authoritative than human beings when it comes to Scripture. The Catholic Church IS Scripture - ongoing Scripture - it IS God speaking, here and now. The Scripture is merely the record of what God said BACK THEN, but the Catholic Church is God speaking in the here and now. So the Bible is a record, but not a law book. The Catholic Church is God giving the Law now, and from age to age. And just as God changed the law in the Bible from OT to NT, embracing new people and situations, God continues to reveal the law and his intent from year to year by speaking aloud today, through the Catholic Church.

Of course you're not going to accept that, but that's what I believe.

Catholics just don't believe the same things about the way God works that you do.
To you, the Bible is final. To us, the Bible is a history book written by the Church. God's authority is final, and God lives IN the Catholic Church and speaks THROUGH the Catholic Church, so therefore the Catholic Church's interpretation of the Bible is God telling the world what the Bible means, whereas anybody picking up the Bible and reading it is just relying on his own impressions.

Needless to say, there's never going to be meeting of the minds between us on this matter, but you should at least understand WHY Catholics think as they think, WHY your arguments from Scripture fall on deaf ears there on subjects on which God has given further revelation (such as matters regarding Mary that are not revealed in Scripture but were revealed later).

There is no argument. There is knowledge and there is ignorance. Each is of their own god in their own right.

I continually seek the knowledge of the spirit, Not of the flesh. I know it's outcome. For me there is no veil. I cannot say the same for those who follow churches who claim there is.

The reward for seeking spiritual knowledge is the freedom the savior says he gives. It a promise, and I have faith in the promises of Christ. Not the promises of men.

Christ is the light of the world. The Father is the light in which no one can look. Yet the church says they are seen as the same light. The spirit shows the fallacy of men. And how they lead. Sorry. I'll take my chances with clarity over darkness.

 

[Vicomte13]

There is no argument. There is knowledge and there is ignorance. Each is of their own god in their own right.

Indeed. So let's talk about miracles.

 

[Phantasman]

Indeed. So let's talk about miracles.

Lets. Jesus performed many. Most on man himself. Healing, raising dead, feeding many, turning water to wine, calming storms. What did the OT miracles consist of? Floods, parting seas, Babel confusion, calming lions, turning water to blood, killing first born, locusts, etc.

I see the the Father of love over the father of might and fear.

 

[Divide]

you said "there are real demons in the world". I quoted that the wiles of the world are the wicked. No demons, devils, vampires, witches.

Well uh, what about all those demons that Jesus was always casting out of people? Scripture speaks of witchcraft also...

Actually....... Azazel King of the Watchers and the 208 Watchers who fell with him where not angels.......
they were sons of G-d.

I'm pretty sure that scripture speaks of Lucifer being created as a Cherubim, and that's an Angelic being. It refers to them as sons of God, but that has it's roots in a word study I did awhile back, and refers to beings that were a direct creation of God, like Angels, and Adam was. Not Eve though because she was taken out of Adam. The word in Genesis 6:4 is Bene Elohim. Check it out.

It is not as Jesus (He was the only begotten Son of God) and we (men & Women) were...given the power to become the sons of God, after Jesus came.

 

[Divide]

Lets. Jesus performed many. Most on man himself. Healing, raising dead, feeding many, turning water to wine, calming storms. What did the OT miracles consist of? Floods, parting seas, Babel confusion, calming lions, turning water to blood, killing first born, locusts, etc.

I see the the Father of love over the father of might and fear.

...and casting out demons!

 

[Vicomte13]

Lets. Jesus performed many. Most on man himself. Healing, raising dead, feeding many, turning water to wine, calming storms. What did the OT miracles consist of? Floods, parting seas, Babel confusion, calming lions, turning water to blood, killing first born, locusts, etc.

I see the the Father of love over the father of might and fear.

I was more interested in discussing personal miracles, the ones you and I have directly experienced ourselves. I did not take too kindly to being called ignorant, above, so I thought that if things were going to get that personal, we may as well really get personal.

For an ignoramus, I sure have been blessed a lot by God. (And I don't think I'm ignorant.)

 

[Divide]

I was more interested in discussing personal miracles

I see Brother. I have quite a little list of personal miracles that the Lord has done for me since I began walking with Him again in 2009, some major, some minor...I'll summarize a few and tell me what you'd like to hear about and I'll write it up.

1. Saved my life in an auto accident in 2009 when I rolled my truck 3 times on the freeway.
2. Stopped my son from getting arrested for a warrant for not paying some fines. (And the cop found the Warrant!)
3. delivered me a pound of fresh gourmet coffee beans to my house when I was out and broke.
4. Sent a ministering Angel to my Garage Sale, and paid me 2400 dollars for at most a grand worth of household knick-knacks left over from my 26 year marriage. When I was two months behind in rent and had a utility shut off for monday. (within 2 hours of praying!)
5. Reset my dislocated hip bone and healed it one night.

That's enough for now. I prayed for all of those except the coffee. I almost did, but then I remembered the scripture that says He know what we need even before we pray. So I didn't, and he sent it anyway, Lol!

I am a walking testimony for our most gracious and loving heavenly Father.


Is this thread good for these miracle testimonies, or should we start another thread just for that, to not derail this one too much? These could get a little long some of them, lol.

 

[Vicomte13]

I see Brother. I have quite a little list of personal miracles that the Lord has done for me since I began walking with Him again in 2009, some major, some minor...I'll summarize a few and tell me what you'd like to hear about and I'll write it up.

1. Saved my life in an auto accident in 2009 when I rolled my truck 3 times on the freeway.
2. Stopped my son from getting arrested for a warrant for not paying some fines. (And the cop found the Warrant!)
3. delivered me a pound of fresh gourmet coffee beans to my house when I was out and broke.
4. Sent a ministering Angel to my Garage Sale, and paid me 2400 dollars for at most a grand worth of household knick-knacks left over from my 26 year marriage. When I was two months behind in rent and had a utility shut off for monday. (within 2 hours of praying!)
5. Reset my dislocated hip bone and healed it one night.

That's enough for now. I prayed for all of those except the coffee. I almost did, but then I remembered the scripture that says He know what we need even before we pray. So I didn't, and he sent it anyway, Lol!

I am a walking testimony for our most gracious and loving heavenly Father.


Is this thread good for these miracle testimonies, or should we start another thread just for that, to not derail this one too much? These could get a little long some of them, lol.

I think that for you and I to talk about personal miracles should be on another thread. But for Phantasman to talk about them with me should be on this thread, because of the comment he made that there is no argument, only knowledge and ignorance. By this, he was asserting that he possesses knowledge but I must be ignorant, because I do not agree with him.

I thought that the best approach for resolving truth was to compare personal miracles. If he and I BOTH have major miracles in our lives, then it would appear that God doesn't CARE about the issue we think is so important, because he bestowed such grace on both of us despite our diametrically opposed beliefs. But if I have the great personal miracles and he does not, then that is proof that God favors me, and that my position is that of knowledge, while his firmly held beliefs are the ignorance.

Miracles provide a good solid real-world test of truth.

Unless of course one believes that God bestows major miracles on the unorthodox.

(Actually, he DOES, and that is part of the truth - a truth that demonstrates the relative weakness of the belief that orthodoxy (not Orthodoxy, orthodoxy to some belief set) is what is most pleasing to God.

One can say that the rain falls upon the wicked and the good, but is one willing to state that God grants huge major miracles to the wicked as well as the good?

My argument is a direct frontal assault, because calling me ignorant was itself a frontal assault. Given that, it's time to lay the cards down on the table of truth. Because of miracle I know God, for sure, and I believe in the God who did those miracles. If God is proposed to be something different, a God who would not do such things for one such as me, then I know for sure that that God is a fantasy who does not exist at all...unless of course there is more than one God. If that were so, then my God's better and I'm sticking with him.

But you are not a party to this particular squabble, so let's go and peacefully talk of miracles elsewhere. I prefer that anyway. God is, and talking about the God who is is easiest accomplished by people who don't just believe that, but who KNOW it because of miracle. It's a completely different discussion than endless Bible bashing. I'm a Catholic and parse out authority differently than many Protestants do, so going down THAT tired and dry road leads to a predictable destination in the salt flats of uselessness.

Talking about our miracles - THAT would really be interesting. Problem: If Catholics like me have miracles, and Baptists have miracles...and we completely disagree on dogma, that WOULD tend to show that God doesn't CARE about our dogmas, wouldn't it? And if HE doesn't care, then maybe we shouldn't either. Right?

Anyway, you start the thread, public or personal, and let's get talking. Not here.

 

[Phantasman]

I was more interested in discussing personal miracles, the ones you and I have directly experienced ourselves. I did not take too kindly to being called ignorant, above, so I thought that if things were going to get that personal, we may as well really get personal.

For an ignoramus, I sure have been blessed a lot by God. (And I don't think I'm ignorant.)

Don't take it personally. We all sin. Sin is from ignorance (of love).

That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.- Gospel of Philip

I follow what Christ taught, I have no time or put effort in seeing what was before he came. Christ is the truth. He taught us of eternal life and how to understand the kingdom of God. The OT is not needed, not for one thing. If it is, show me.

Christ said teach the Gospel. And used the Spirit in Paul to teach it as well. These are the things I think on.

I know you're not ignorant. I said the battle is between knowledge and ignorance.

This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth.- Gospel of Truth

This different take (spiritual) gives more clarity of the Gospel rather than "Satan" does. Peter was called Satan because of the ignorance he spoke. Not because he was the devil.

But Jesus also praised him when the knowledge was spoken:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock isn't Peter. It's the Spiritual understanding from the Father that changed Simon (of the flesh) to Peter (of the spirit).

I see no rock that James and John couldn't equal.

But those are just my views from study.