Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

[Phantasman]

Miracles provide a good solid real-world test of truth.

What miracles did Paul perform? Stephen? John? I believe they spoke the truth.

 

[Divide]

Talking about our miracles - THAT would really be interesting. Problem: If Catholics like me have miracles, and Baptists have miracles...and we completely disagree on dogma, that WOULD tend to show that God doesn't CARE about our dogmas, wouldn't it? And if HE doesn't care, then maybe we shouldn't either. Right?

Anyway, you start the thread, public or personal, and let's get talking. Not here.

Oh ok. Yeah I have a tendency to kinda skim past it when people squabble, lol. I'll start another thread.

I agree with you too on what you say above. God don't care about dogma or denominations. He cares if we walk in Love or not. That's all over scripture, ...but if ye have not love then you have nothing. and so forth.

The way I figure it is everyone will not see things the same way. We are many members in one body. We all have different upbringings and talents and ponts of view, and are all in different places in our walk with the Lord...So...how could a foot agree with a hand? They could not understand each other. But do they love each other and what is the intent of their heart...?

I'ma gonna go start a Miracles and Testimonies thread.

 

[Divide]

Don't take it personally. We all sin. Sin is from ignorance (of love).

That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.- Gospel of Philip

I follow what Christ taught, I have no time or put effort in seeing what was before he came. Christ is the truth. He taught us of eternal life and how to understand the kingdom of God. The OT is not needed, not for one thing. If it is, show me.

Christ said teach the Gospel. And used the Spirit in Paul to teach it as well. These are the things I think on.

I know you're not ignorant. I said the battle is between knowledge and ignorance.

This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth.- Gospel of Truth

This different take (spiritual) gives more clarity of the Gospel rather than "Satan" does. Peter was called Satan because of the ignorance he spoke. Not because he was the devil.

But Jesus also praised him when the knowledge was spoken:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock isn't Peter. It's the Spiritual understanding from the Father that changed Simon (of the flesh) to Peter (of the spirit).

I see no rock that James and John couldn't equal.

But those are just my views from study.

I'm in general agreement with you here Brother. But this thing...

I follow what Christ taught, I have no time or put effort in seeing what was before he came. Christ is the truth. He taught us of eternal life and how to understand the kingdom of God. The OT is not needed, not for one thing. If it is, show me.

Mind if take a stab at this brother?

God declares the end from the beginning, right? Ok Brother, there's your OT, (and the NT as far as I'm concerned). There are so many types and shadows in the OT that...I've realized that it really is one complete book, not two, old and new. If you meditate on the words in the OT...you can see Jesus on many pages! And many events of the OT are a direct shadow of things to come! Some have, some have yet to come to pass. I could give you some examples if you like.

It's like Chuck Missler says...The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed...and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

 

[Divide]

I did start a Miracles and testimonies thread so that we can all share a light hearted good positive string of the Lord's goodness to us all. It's right here...

Miracles and Testimonies

Hope to hear from you all there! I love hearing testimonies! One of my favorite faith builders, and lots of glory to God for His goodness and longsuffering to us!

 

[PanDeVida]

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."


Pastor Rick Joyner in a visionary dream of heaven given to him back in 1995 states that arrows with the name HOPE on them would be the ones that would work against the demons!




(Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest):



I go into a theory here that we may be living in the time period when the kingdom of Satan is divided..... and it falls:

Does Darth Vader = Azazel = Zeus???

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Hi Dennis, Yes to your above question. Christians should not fight /protest against the Church founded on Rock! This fight / protests all began in the 15th century with the Protestant reformation and it continues today, in every protestant church, wether they know it or not.

So who can stop this nonsense of protesting / fighting each other as you say, against the Church? The answer is: Those with the title "Protestants".

Protestants need to come back Home into the Catholic Church. If There being only One Church, as it was from the beginning we have more power to TOGETHER, to wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Dennis you can begin by not protesting.

 

[kjw47]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Hi Dennis, Yes to your above question. Christians should not fight /protest against the Church founded on Rock! This fight / protests all began in the 15th century with the Protestant reformation and it continues today, in every protestant church, wether they know it or not.

So who can stop this nonsense of protesting / fighting each other as you say, against the Church? The answer is: Those with the title "Protestants".

Protestants need to come back Home into the Catholic Church. If There being only One Church, as it was from the beginning we have more power to TOGETHER, to wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Dennis you can begin by not protesting.

You have overlooked some very important matters of bible reality
1) the OT condemns the usage of statues, icons, graven images--yet every catholic church and their homes are filled with all 3.
2) Call no man on earth--FATHER-( in a spiritual teacher sense)
In ww2--the Pope allowed the young men to kill for Adolf Hitler against other young catholic men who stood on the allied side and 6 million Jewish to boot.
NEVER would Jesus allow the real brothers in Christ to stand against one another to kill. And they haven't. One of the biggest hipocrocys ever witnessed by all creation was the teachers and followers praying to the same God on both sides of the war. Its very sad that anyone cannot see these realities.

 

[Divide]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Hi Dennis, Yes to your above question. Christians should not fight /protest against the Church founded on Rock! This fight / protests all began in the 15th century with the Protestant reformation and it continues today, in every protestant church, wether they know it or not.

So who can stop this nonsense of protesting / fighting each other as you say, against the Church? The answer is: Those with the title "Protestants".

Protestants need to come back Home into the Catholic Church. If There being only One Church, as it was from the beginning we have more power to TOGETHER, to wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Dennis you can begin by not protesting.

I like how you think Brother. Within the last year or two, I've come to learn that...there is no Catholics. There is no Protestants. There is no black, There is no white there is no democrats, nor republicans...there is Men. There is Women. There is Brothers and Sisters. There is one God of ALL.

All of this denominational differences, racial differences...all of it is distractions from the enemy to get our focus off of the Lord Jesus Christ. To have us arguing rather than focusing on the Lord, walking in Love towards one another. That's all that matters. Satan prolly gets a good belly laugh at all of our bickering. It even goes as far as...our Brothers and sisters aren't even the enemy. The evil spirits, principalities and powers and that. Those are the enemies. That man didn't beat me up and rip me off, it was the evil spirit goading him into it. Confusing him, teaching people to get distracted by the details of the gobble-de-gook. The devil is in the details.

When we realize this, so much just goes away, and clarity and the Lord come into focus. Now I understand how Jesus was able to pray for forgiveness for the men who hammered the nails into him at the crucifixion. Now I am able to forgive and pray for mine enemies! And mean it from my heart!

The way I figure it is everyone will not see things the same way. We are many members in one body. We all have different upbringings and talents and ponts of view, and are all in different places in our walk with the Lord...So...how could a foot agree with a hand? They could not understand each other. But do they love each other and what is the intent of their heart...?

To cooperate with one another and work together as one body!

 

[PanDeVida]

You have overlooked some very important matters of bible reality
1) the OT condemns the usage of statues, icons, graven images--yet every catholic church and their homes are filled with all 3.
2) Call no man on earth--FATHER-( in a spiritual teacher sense)
In ww2--the Pope allowed the young men to kill for Adolf Hitler against other young catholic men who stood on the allied side and 6 million Jewish to boot.
NEVER would Jesus allow the real brothers in Christ to stand against one another to kill. And they haven't. One of the biggest hipocrocys ever witnessed by all creation was the teachers and followers praying to the same God on both sides of the war. Its very sad that anyone cannot see these realities.

1. KJW, Let him who is without images / pictures / statutes in his or her home or wallet be the first one to cast the the first Stone. KJW, I just heard your STONE drop to the ground.

God, ordered Moses to erect a Bronze Serpent, so that the Jew who were bit can look upon it and be saved form its poison / venom. God is not against Statues or Pictures Images, what he hates is when one starts to worship them. Kjw, have you read the Bible? if you have you surely have not read Numbers 21:8,9. Below?

Numbers 21: 8And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, (Graven image) and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

2. Matthew 23:9 you seem not to understand! What is the 4th commandment? Honor your What? the Answer is: Honor your Father and your Mother. Silly, if we cannot call anyone Father, then how can we obey the 4th Commandment, in order to Honor your FATHER! and Mother! (Oh you say spiritual Father) typical protestant! Where does Matthew 23: say anything the word "Spiritual"? NOWHRE!

What about the parable the Rich man and Lazarus, where the Lord said that the Poor man was in the bosom of Father Abraham? Luke 16:23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

KJW, Luke 16:23,24 being stated, this shows that the man in hell understand more than you, that it is not a sin to call out to Father Abraham as Father Abraham. And More importantly Jesus Christ himself proves you wrong for He Used the Words Father Abraham in His Parable.

KJW, quoting your words: "Its very sad that anyone cannot see these realities". Realities are that the rich man in hell, by our Lords Own mouth, cries out the name of Father Abraham.

Know the truth!

 

[PanDeVida]

I like how you think Brother. Within the last year or two, I've come to learn that...there is no Catholics. There is no Protestants. There is no black, There is no white there is no democrats, nor republicans...there is Men. There is Women. There is Brothers and Sisters. There is one God of ALL.

All of this denominational differences, racial differences...all of it is distractions from the enemy to get our focus off of the Lord Jesus Christ. To have us arguing rather than focusing on the Lord, walking in Love towards one another. That's all that matters. Satan prolly gets a good belly laugh at all of our bickering. It even goes as far as...our Brothers and sisters aren't even the enemy. The evil spirits, principalities and powers and that. Those are the enemies. That man didn't beat me up and rip me off, it was the evil spirit goading him into it. Confusing him, teaching people to get distracted by the details of the gobble-de-gook. The devil is in the details.

When we realize this, so much just goes away, and clarity and the Lord come into focus. Now I understand how Jesus was able to pray for forgiveness for the men who hammered the nails into him at the crucifixion. Now I am able to forgive and pray for mine enemies! And mean it from my heart!


To cooperate with one another and work together as one body!

Divide, when one thinks the way you do, "I've come to learn" they become their own pope, start their own man made church founded on sand, thus the 33,000 + protestant churchesss can witness to. Like you stated: The devil is in the details".

Funny, all Protestants churches do not agree with one another, BUT all agree to protest against the One Church Founded on Rock.

True, we are men and women we are Christians that belongs to Christ and His One Church.

Divide, you stated: "To cooperate with one another and work together as one body!" For the First 1500 in the Catholic Church there was no "DIVIDE" in its teaching, no Divide in its 73 books of the Bible, It was working together with no Division, as one body and to this very day working together in the one Body of Christ the Eucharist. Still the Church, forgives or retains sins through the Sacrament of Penance instituted by Christ, Himself, etc...

Divide, The Divide came in the 15th century with the Protestant reformation or is it really deformation. So you can not tell me, that you truly want to cooperate with one another and work together as one body, and not even your profile name of divide, shows that you want it, divide, does not eaqual togetherness.

Come Home, to the Only Church that can tell you or anyone to come Home! Because only the First Church can, where there is the togetherness in one Body/Eucharist that you seek and we Catholic found. Amen Amen

 

[Divide]

Divide, when one thinks the way you do, "I've come to learn" they become their own pope, start their own man made church founded on sand, thus the 33,000 + protestant churchesss can witness to. Like you stated: The devil is in the details".

Funny, all Protestants churches do not agree with one another, BUT all agree to protest against the One Church Founded on Rock.

True, we are men and women we are Christians that belongs to Christ and His One Church.

Divide, you stated: "To cooperate with one another and work together as one body!" For the First 1500 in the Catholic Church there was no "DIVIDE" in its teaching, no Divide in its 73 books of the Bible, It was working together with no Division, as one body and to this very day working together in the one Body of Christ the Eucharist. Still the Church, forgives or retains sins through the Sacrament of Penance instituted by Christ, Himself, etc...

Divide, The Divide came in the 15th century with the Protestant reformation or is it really deformation. So you can not tell me, that you truly want to cooperate with one another and work together as one body, and not even your profile name of divide, shows that you want it, divide, does not eaqual togetherness.

Come Home, to the Only Church that can tell you or anyone to come Home! Because only the First Church can, where there is the togetherness in one Body/Eucharist that you seek and we Catholic found. Amen Amen

That's pretty funny Brother. I take no offense with you because I see that you're totally misunderstood who I am and what I'm about. You know what Divide is? It's my favorite camping spot in Colorado. We used to go camping an awful lot when I lived out there for so long. I lived there for almost 30 years because I didn't want to raise my kids here in Columbus. We had a great time there and I miss it. I wouldn't be here right now if the Lord had not told me to come move back here to my home town. Divide is where we went the most camping and hunting. It's about 7 miles west of Woodland Park Colorado, which is just 17 miles up the hill from Colorado Springs where we lived and worked. So you trying to make my screen name into something weirded out...is something mighty funny brother! LOL .

God bless you anyway. Whatever you were talking about. Go pick a squabble with someone else hey? I aint here for that.

 

[GUANO]

you said "there are real demons in the world". I quoted that the wiles of the world are the wicked. No demons, devils, vampires, witches.

Was that the only part you read? Your still defining things from a superstitious mindset and promoting the fight against flesh and blood yet implying that the world is some kind of conscious entity that has wiles (I know that's not what your really implying but speech is key, and I was careful in my speech so I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I believe that horror movie type demons exist).

A demon is not some Hollywood pagan fiction. To be specific, a demon is a background process within the subconscious mind. In fact it's the exact same thing as a daemon within a computer operating system. Its a background process that initiates a program (evokes a spirit) when a specific criteria is met. In simple terms, when I put out my hand in a gesture to shake yours, your immediate reaction is to shake my hand (if your not fully aware and mindful, that is). That is because it is programmed into you by repetition. I (or someone) can also take advantage of many other "familiar spirits" to "bewitch" you and even place you into a state of trance with only tricks of diversion and speech. This is how hypnotism works---and it is witchcraft--and witchcraft is real. But if you have been programmed to believe that witchcraft is fiction because obviously Harry Potter is fiction then you are under a spell and as such much easier to manipulate.

The design of corporate logos has evolved from arts called Sigil and Talismanic magick. Shapes, colors, and other things influence the subconscious mind. Someone who uses this knowledge to manipulate people would be a "witch" who is also using familiar spirits. Witches are real. They may call themselves marketing or "public relations" specialists to fool the weak minded but as Christians we should be smarter than that.

"Witchcraft" and "sorcery" (or call it mental manipulation since you don't believe in evil spirits or people that use them) is also rampant in the church. Everything from the name, the logo, the the architecture, the pictures, the placement of fake plants, the music, everything is meant to manipulate the "atmosphere", the "mood". Someone who evokes spirits is a "sorcerer". The fact that the pastor doesn't know he's engaged in idolatry and witchcraft doesn't make it any less "enchanting". So, is there "good magic"?

There are many different types of demons and other spirits. They are not conscious, living things out to get you, but the people that use them sure can be, and the soirits can sure "get you" becaise it's nature and you cant escape it.

Vampires and Warewolves... Vampires in story and myth represent psychopathic people, while warewolves represent the bipolar--people who turn into monsters at certain intervals. To just discount everything can make it so that you fail to learn when you could learn a lot.

Now, what are the most powerful spiritual beings (things that exist) in the world? They're nations, states, cities, religions, corporations, ideologies, memes/themes, and other such [things that exist].

Our world is far more spiritual than the Egyptians, Babylonians or Assyrians could have ever accomplished or imagined. Giving it the label of "secular" is just another "spell". Nothing is secular (without a spiritual or religious meaning). Secularism, like atheism, is an impossible concept. Under the guise of the secular world you can go to church and claim to worship no other gods, but the "secular" religion transcends it all and you have to just "come out" of it.

When you go to the market to exchange the fruits of your labor with a fictitious entity called "walmart" you are acknowledging it's existence and it's ownership of goods in the real world---effectively rendering worship to this idol that has been conjured out of nowhere by a group of people and then given rights and "personhood" by the state. The whole process and legal ritual is Rosicrucian and freemason in origin---Luciferian. And don't even get me started on the 501c3...

 

[DennisTate]

If you want to, you can. I don't suppose that a whole lot of people really CARE what happens to the demons and devils and Satan. Nor do they care what happens to the sheep. That is fine. Just looking after our own garden is a lifetime's work.

This new discussion that quotes you in the opening post is now up........ and I added a simple poll question with it:

How would animals judge us men?

 

[DennisTate]

That's one way of looking at it.

Here is mine. God lives in the Catholic Church. Jesus breathed his Holy Spirit into the Apostles, and sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in the Church that he founded through the Apostles. So, when the Catholic Church - which is the Church that Jesus founded through the Apostles - speaks authoritatively on dogmatic matters (such as the Canon), that is God speaking directly. The Catholic Church IS God when it speaks on dogma.

The Bible CAN mean lots of things, but the Bible is not God. God is God, and God lives in the Catholic Church, so when the Catholic Church says dogmatically "The Bible MEANS this", that is God speaking directly, as God, giving the complete answer, and striking down all opposed opinions.

The "biases" that exist in the Catholic Church on matters of dogma are God's own biases, because the dogmas of the Catholic Church are all directly revealed by God. When the Church speaks dogmatically, that IS God speaking. It is more authoritative than any read of the Bible, because God MEANT something when he inspired those authors. He COULD have meant many things, but where it's important to him, he opens his mouth and TELLS YOU what he meant. The mouth of God is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

THAT is why the Catholic Church, alone, is infallible on all matters of dogma. Because it is not the Church speaking in such cases, it God speaking directly and plainly.

Obviously this is the diametric opposite of what you believe on the matter. In fact, to you, this is IDOLATRY. The Catholic Church IS GOD. The Holy Spirit lives IN the Church, and when the Church speaks dogmatically THAT IS GOD SPEAKING OUT LOUD ON EARTH TODAY. Nothing can be held up by mere men AGAINST God. Not the Bible. Not Tradition. Nothing. The Catholic Church is God speaking, when the Church speaks dogmatically - the Catholic Church, being God in such cases - can never err, and all arguments opposed to its dogmas are direct attacks on God.

That's obviously the very strongest assertion of the authority of God, and what the Church IS, that you'll ever see.

It's obviously idolatry, to you.
It's obviously so, to me.

Given these two polar opposite positions, obviously anything about Church politics is irrelevant to me. God sees all the politics, but he's still God, and when he speaks, through flawed men (such as the authors of Scripture, and Popes and Cardinals and Bishops), he nevertheless makes sure that they wrote, and that they speak, precisely what it is his will to say.

So, IF the early Church had biases against Enoch, those biases were put in their heads by God - they were holy resistance to falsehood. When the Church spoke out the canon, that was God telling the world directly - direct revelation from God - of what GOD considers Scripture. One can search the Scripture to understand, but what Scripture IS was revealed directly by God, because the Catholic Church IS God, when it speaks on dogma. Dogma is revealed like Scripture - God speaks THROUGH men whom he has selected as his vessels. In this way, God inspired the Scripture, and God inspired all Catholic dogma. Which is why neither can err.

One can err in his interpretation of Scripture and dogma, which is why, from time to time, God reveals MORE dogma, through the Church, to clarify what people are not getting.

Once again, obviously you can't agree with any of it.

Still, with the very purist position put forward, it IS possible to discuss things like Enoch.

The book of Enoch, and all of the books rejected from the Catholic canon, are not inspired by God. So they cannot be relied on for anything that contradicts that which WAS inspired by God.

What is it about Enoch, then, that is interesting? After all, Jesus, Peter and Jude all quoted it. Jesus quoted it to refer to the Son of Man. Peter and Jude quoted it with regards to angels leaving their stations. We know those things are so. Jesus was son of man and son of God, both - the ultimate Nephil, I suppose, but not evil because God chose to father him. The angels did indeed leave their stations - the ones that did are demons and devils, and they torment people. Other angels guard us.

900 foot high nephilim in the age of Jonah? No. That's an exaggeration. Dinosaur-sized beasts that were the products of angelic unions with living creatures? That may be where the dinosaurs came from in the first place, and where the dragons came from after the Flood. Maybe. Doesn't matter theologically either way, but it's interesting to speculate about.

Very interesting indeed!

I am of the belief that G-d..... lives in all seven billion humans who walk the earth......
including one billion or more Roman Catholics and....... I have to admit that all seven
billion of us have been given more authority and power to affect how world events turn out
than I used to imagine was possible.

Since two or three Christians being in agreement on something that they ask for has
power..... then over one billion Roman Catholics agreeing that your Pope has great power........

.... actually has considerable validity..... .which is witnessed by an Ecuadorian Charismatic Catholic
or Pentecostal woman named Angelica Zambrano if I remember correctly.

Ms. Zambrano, in an audio message that I heard many years ago stated that she had had
either a near death experience...... or something like it....... and she had been shown many things.... .one of which was Pope John Paul II wrestling with a serpent in what many Catholics might wonder if it was part of Purgatory??????

My theory is that although Pope John Paul II was amazing...... .He assisted President Ronald Reagan to bring down the Iron Curtain....... He travelled and worked tirelessly on many issues......... After he died..... he did the usual Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.... and he regretted not doing even more!

I believe that his wrestling with a serpent..... means a lot of things... .but a serpent is a symbol of wisdom...... and for all I know this could have been the very same serpent who attempted to attack his great, great, great.... grandmother Eve.... in The Book of Adam and Eve that was preserved into our time period only in Arabic....... because in our zeal...... we Christians had burned every other copy of that book in all other languages.

Anyway..... in a sense that serpent personifies some aspects of wisdom.....
that can manifest as guilt... and by tackling that serpent......
I suspect that Pope John Paul II after his death was wrestling with his desire to have
accomplished even more for humanity............
and.....

I believe that you and I and all seven billion of us are benefiting as Pope John Paul II wrestles with Wisdom in the form of the serpent....... and a new time line is being wrestled into existence.... that I believe is better..... vastly better than any previous time line.........

The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

 

[DennisTate]

How does this fit in.
Luke chapter 12 verse 51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Just as G-d takes full responsibility for raising up King Jereboam as an adversary to
anointed King Solomon..... and his son King Rehoboam..... so also....... G-d creates some division... when that division is necessary to work out G-d's ultimate plan.

The Messianic Jewish community lived rather peacefully with the Rabbinic Jewish community until the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt. Apparently Rabbi Akiva had convinced Simon Bar Kochba that after he got rid of the Romans..... he should then get rid of the Messianic Jews who believed Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus was Messiah.

Up until that time here is a good explanation of how Messianic Jews were a part of the Jewish community and could still attend both synagogues..... and even Jerusalem Temple services.

"The Sacrificial System Will Continue

One of the most perplexing ideas to students of Scripture is the idea that God intends that the annual feasts, along with animal sacrifice, will continue into the Millennium. Many Christians who have studied the prophetic portions of Zechariah 14, Isaiah 66, and Ezekiel 40 - 48, which clearly describe these Millennial worship ordinations, are confused by the idea. They ask, "Didn't the sacrifice of Christ eliminate animal sacrifices forever?"

............"Only the complete sacrifice of Jesus could ever totally atone for our sins. However, God clearly demanded the sacrifices from Adam to Christ. Those sacrifices were acts of obedience to the direct command of God, as well as acknowledgements of one's own personal sinfulness and need for God's forgiveness. Animal sacrifices covered the sins of the people temporarily until the prophesied Messiah would come and offer Himself once and for all as the necessary atonement for sin. If animal sacrifice can never atone for sin, why would God allow Israel to resume such sacrifice in the Third Temple, prior to Armageddon, and then demand that Israel continue such sacrifice in the Millennium? There are two reasons why I believe this is true."

First, the early Jewish - Christian Church continued to offer sacrifices in the first century.".......



.......Second, New Testament writers used the legal sacrificial system to illustrate very important points concerning Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.......

..... These examples of the way early Jewish believers used God's law to teach great love when He sacrificed His only Son on the cross will be repeated during the Millennium." (Grant R. Jeffrey, Messiah, War in the Middle East and the Road to Armageddon, page 317, 318 and 319)

 

[DennisTate]

I never heard that before. I would think not. Azazel was one of the fallen angels and they way scripture reads, they all fell at once.

No...... my understanding is that Azazel King of the Watchers and 208 Watchers with him fell..... . because of the great, great, great.... granddaughters of Adam and Eve, (through Cain and Luluwa)..... who it seems may have actively attempted to seduce them..........
but if not... .the Watchers certainly went all out to seduce them.

This sounds to me as if it happened centuries after the fall of Adam and Eve... which could have been centuries.... or millennia... or more..... after the fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels.


In a sense.... the children of Azazel and the Watchers with the daughters of men..... would be the great, great, great grandchildren of Adam and Eve....... This could turn out to be relevant to how this works out.

 

[DennisTate]

Please give me a synopsis, either here or in a private mail thread. You can take as much time as you want to spell it out, but please don't send me to open links. Tell me what it is that you want me to know straight.

Do not feel the need to back up every word with Scripture. I'm a Catholic - Scripture is not the highest authority to me anyway, so you'll just be wasting your time trying to prove things to me using a technique that persuades Protestants but that persuades me of nothing at all.

If you really want to persuade me using SCRIPTURE, then you will have to limit yourself to words spoken directly by Christ himself, or by the Father from Heaven, or by YHWH, or Elohiym, or an angel bearing the message directly from God. Apostles and Prophets and other writers are all interesting, but they are not God and have the same sort of authority as the Catholic Church, but earlier in time. In other words, what the Church teaches about all of those subjects is of higher authority than what the earlier church, apostles, prophets, etc. taught.

If you really want to persuade me with Scripture, you must limit yourself exclusively to quoting God, and God alone, speaking as God, in the text. I will listen to those arguments. Don't argue that "every word comes from God" because that is not true. Every word might be INSPIRED by God, but that is also true of every word of Catholic dogma, because the teaching authority of the Catholic Church IS God, speaking directly, and what comes later in time trumps what comes earlier in time.

To prove something to a Catholic like me using Scripture, you can only quote Jesus or God directly. And note well that whatever Jesus says in Revelation is the most authoritative, because that is God's LAST WORD on the matter in Scripture, and Jesus commanded God to take dictation, giving the words greater exactitude than anything earlier. In a similar vein, please note that what Jesus says trumps anything to the contrary that YHWH said in the Old Testament, for the simple reason that in the Old Testament YHWH gave the Torah exclusively to the Hebrews, and only to and for them, so none of those laws after Noah that are in the Old Testament apply to me at all, and never did. Only what Jesus said applies to me, or what God said to Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel and Noah. Once God starts making deals with Abraham and his descendants, he is talking to THEM, not to ME, and none of his laws were ever made as laws for me.

The Ten Commandments never bound any of my ancestors and do not bind me. They are part of the covenant with the Hebrews, and only them. They never applied to anybody else on earth, and Jesus' coming didn't extend that Hebrew covenant to all mankind. Jesus said that not a word of the Torah would change, and the words of the Torah say on their face that they apply to Hebrews. Therefore, it is error to say that ANY OF IT, including the Ten Commandments, applies to Gentiles like me. It does not. It is history, and important, but it is NOT LAW AT ALL for people like me, and never was.

Likewise, Jesus freed JEWS from that Law, but he didn't free ME from it. I was never under it in the first place. I'm under the Law of Noah, the Law of Adam and Eve, and the Law of Jesus, and of course the Law of God as revealed by the Church, the Canon Law.

I don't expect you to learn the Canon Law. If you want to use "Scripture Alone" to persuade me, stick to the words directly spoken by Jesus and you can make an argument.

Really, just present what you think, as you think it. Where I already agree with you, no justification will need be made. I will already understand where you are coming from. Where I don't agree, or don't understand, I will ask for clarification.

In this way you can get the ideas you want to convey down more quickly, and you will not need to muck around endlessly in Scriptural verses that I am not going to interpret the way you do anyway. If you want to use Scripture to bolster a point, quote Jesus. Don't quote Paul - the Church is superior in authority to Paul, and Peter, and John, and James, and all of the Jewish traditions. I like Paul, but he is most abused of all of the apostles by people who take Paul's opinions and try to make them laws of God. They are not, and they never will be.

That's a lot of instructions, but it should make your way forward easier. Just say what you think in your own voice, bolstering it with Jesus (just him) if you feel you need to. And let me ask you questions.

If you want to do that here, before the (angry) eyes of others, fire away. If you want to do it in a private thread, initiate it and I will answer.

As much as possible I would like to make this offer public......
all prayers and constructive criticism that I can get for this is appreciated..........

I have an online friend named Sigmund Ivarsson who has came up with The Petra Project.

This is a nine meter wide tunnel from out in the Mediterranean Sea near Tel Aviv to somewhere in the area of the Jordan River Valley about seventy kms away.

This tunnel will descent well over 1200 feet and could transport roughly two hundred million cubic meters of ocean water from the Mediterranean to the Jordan Valley annually.

Graphene screens may make it possible to nearly desalinate most of the water even before it flows down the tunnel.

There could be up to 21 hydro electric generation facilities along the tunnel. It can branch like a menorah into seven smaller tunnels.

Sigmund has asked me to promote his project to Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and I will try my best to do so.

The fact that I live in Nova Scotia does put me in an interesting position to feel very strongly about this project.

The towns of Truro and Pugwash, N. S., Canada seem to be in the position of the proverbial canary in the coal mine as far as the threat of rising ocean levels goes.

Every cubic meter of ocean water that is desalinated and added to the water table of Jordan or Israel or the Palestinian Authority is really good news for residents of Truro.

In my part of Nova Scotia, in Guysborough County, there is not much more than a one meter difference between low to high tide. Near Truro and Pugwash the difference is over fifteen meters many days each year.

A valid question is..... would a thirty centimeter, one foot, rise in average ocean levels, translate into a rise in high tide levels 15X greater near Truro and Pugwash?

I believe that the answer could be yes..... and if so...... then somebody somewhere should try their best to get people talking and thinking about this.

I would love to invite Pope Francis to begin a meeting or series of meetings in or near the town of Truro, Nova Scotia to discuss this with local and international leaders.

This offer relates to a submission that I wrote up for the Virgin Earth Challenge back in 2007.


My two somewhat humorous submissions for $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge.

Dear Mr. Branson:

It is my firm belief that the number one technological device to reduce atmospheric greenhouse gases has already been invented. It is the tree.

What is desperately needed at this time is not necessarily a new mechanical device but instead a paradigm shift in economic theory regarding monetary policy. We require a readily understandable explanation on how leaders in business and government can direct not only millions, but actually trillions of dollars of investment into combating global warming.


One of the most effective practical methods that could be put into place in the least amount of time would be dozens of the largest possible desalinization plants all along the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Huge quantities of fresh water could be dripped onto the Sinai and Sahara deserts and voila, well chosen species of newly planted fast growing trees could soon change the color of these relatively desolate areas, significantly reduce atmospheric CO2, positively affect local weather patterns and at the same time significantly counterbalance the increases in worldwide ocean levels as the polar ice caps melt. This will buy us some extra time and thus expand the “very brief window of opportunity to deal with climate change.”

So who is going to finance the construction of all these massive installations not to mention the planting of all those seedling trees?

I believe that it is possible for you to do this yourself Mr. Branson. You have already created a Virgin currency unit/coupon which has astonishing long term potential. My wife Maria Jose just returned from a two week trip to the British VIRGIN Islands. It is theoretically possible to link your Virgin coupon with the national currency of a small nation and you could soon be playing around in macro-economics. Considering the volume of business being done through your Virgin Group I would submit that you already are.

Pope Benedict XVI may be in an even stronger position than you Mr. Branson to transform the world economy virtually overnight through the introduction of a new Vatican Currency Unit that could be linked with each and every national currency where the Vatican State is free to do business.

I plan to elaborate in great detail on these two major alternatives in a later writing but I felt that you and your staff should now see the simple explanation that I wrote up for applying this theory within a micro-economy to greatly reduce unemployment. Although combating global warming would seem to be a conflicting goal to job creation, there need be no dissonance when we all have a better grasp of the big picture.

I ran as an independent for the office of MLA in the most recent Nova Scotia provincial election.


Dennis Tate primary campaign writing for June 13/06 election
http://www.bankingsystemflaws.blogspot.com/

 

[Divide]

You could be correct...... I don't really know how to nail down a verse like this to merely humans............
if G-d plan to restore wild animals like wolves, lions and serpents........ one would think that G-d also is speaking about other life forms that have became predatory....... such as the children of the Watchers and the daughters of men who became giants.


Isaiah 11:6

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lionand the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

Isaiah 65:25

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

It took me a long time brother. I have been listening to messages about this stuff, and reading it, praying about it, and speaking of it, word studies in the original languages at Blueletter Bible.com... for years now. I get bits and pieces here and there. (I got a new piece yesterday! From a Brother here which posted Leviticus 16:10!) No one has ALL the answers, We all get a portion. So I keep searching it out!
Example: After Jesus was resurrected. Apostles, women and so forth went to the sepulcher. spoke with Angels, Jesus appeared to some here and there (Mary, Peter, the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and so forth) No one got it all. Only after they all came together in the upper room were they able to compare notes together and piece it all together. Many members, one body.

Why would God's plan include unrepentant predatory beings? I believe that they had a chance to repent and do good, but did not. They were put here as "watchers" and instead of obeying God, they disobeyed and sinned with our women. So then...Revelation was written, and these things must come to pass now. The Nephilim never were eligible for redemption, being hybrids, but the Watchers were, for a time period. You can't blame 'em really, our women are super cute

And the animals. God gave them a fear of man after the fall. In heaven (and on Earth during His millennial reign) the fear will be taken from the animals again and restored to a pre fall condition like in the scripture you posted.

Also! It's my understanding that when we get to heaven, that all of our beloved pets that we've had on Earth will be there waiting for us. That's super cool. But then again, our God is Super cool! That's how He rolls.

Question: Why do you write God, like G-D? I see that other places also and wondered...

 

[Phantasman]

I'm in general agreement with you here Brother. But this thing...



Mind if take a stab at this brother?

God declares the end from the beginning, right? Ok Brother, there's your OT, (and the NT as far as I'm concerned). There are so many types and shadows in the OT that...I've realized that it really is one complete book, not two, old and new. If you meditate on the words in the OT...you can see Jesus on many pages! And many events of the OT are a direct shadow of things to come! Some have, some have yet to come to pass. I could give you some examples if you like.

It's like Chuck Missler says...The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed...and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Understand the wilderness. John (the Baptist) was among the Jews, yet they were in the wilderness (of spiritual truth). God the Father was never glorified as the son glorified him. All the good and bad in the OT is attributed to God. The Father never murdered. Yet the Jews believed he did. And Christ told them so:

John 8:
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Keep in mind the capital F, meaning God the Father.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

The Jews never had the truth (from heaven).
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jesus is telling them that the truth didn't come from heaven to Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Notice again the capital F (God) and the small f (fleshly).

Paul explains this further:
Ephesians:
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This ties in directly with the savior saying:

John:
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Again, fathers with a small f.

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Bread is life sustaining knowledge. Jesus said his flesh (body) was that knowledge. He changed bread (OT knowledge) to truth (knowledge of the Father).

Matthew:
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So what is the mouth of God? Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Gospels (Christ) and Paul (Holy Spirit). They aren't in the OT, as Jesus and Paul plainly say, and why it took the resurrection of truth (Christ) who died and arose at the crucifixion.

Matthew:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The OT didn't save the Jews. Christ did by going to Hades where they slept (according to Secret John) and Paul.

It's a hard pill to swallow, but Christ said it would be. The deceiver is powerful.

Gospel of Thomas:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

 

[Vicomte13]

Very interesting indeed!

I am of the belief that G-d..... lives in all seven billion humans who walk the earth......
including one billion or more Roman Catholics and....... I have to admit that all seven
billion of us have been given more authority and power to affect how world events turn out
than I used to imagine was possible.

Since two or three Christians being in agreement on something that they ask for has
power..... then over one billion Roman Catholics agreeing that your Pope has great power........

.... actually has considerable validity..... .which is witnessed by an Ecuadorian Charismatic Catholic
or Pentecostal woman named Angelica Zambrano if I remember correctly.

Ms. Zambrano, in an audio message that I heard many years ago stated that she had had
either a near death experience...... or something like it....... and she had been shown many things.... .one of which was Pope John Paul II wrestling with a serpent in what many Catholics might wonder if it was part of Purgatory??????

My theory is that although Pope John Paul II was amazing...... .He assisted President Ronald Reagan to bring down the Iron Curtain....... He travelled and worked tirelessly on many issues......... After he died..... he did the usual Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.... and he regretted not doing even more!

I believe that his wrestling with a serpent..... means a lot of things... .but a serpent is a symbol of wisdom...... and for all I know this could have been the very same serpent who attempted to attack his great, great, great.... grandmother Eve.... in The Book of Adam and Eve that was preserved into our time period only in Arabic....... because in our zeal...... we Christians had burned every other copy of that book in all other languages.

Anyway..... in a sense that serpent personifies some aspects of wisdom.....
that can manifest as guilt... and by tackling that serpent......
I suspect that Pope John Paul II after his death was wrestling with his desire to have
accomplished even more for humanity............
and.....

I believe that you and I and all seven billion of us are benefiting as Pope John Paul II wrestles with Wisdom in the form of the serpent....... and a new time line is being wrestled into existence.... that I believe is better..... vastly better than any previous time line.........

The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

Interesting. Thanks. I'll read it an mull it over.

 

[Vicomte13]

Why would God's plan include unrepentant predatory beings?

Does a predator need to repent what it does not feel guilty for doing?
Does a lion need to repent eating gazelles?
Does a spider repent eating flies?
Does a fish repent eating other fish?
Do we repent eating meat?
Does a cow repent eating the grass?

Do we repent eating, given that we think we have to eat?