Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

[WilliamBo]

I had it too back in the 1990's but I gave it to a good friend.......
which was no problem considering that it is easily available online.

This is the best translation I have found

The Book of Enoch Index

 

[rockytopva]

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Rev 12;17

 

[DennisTate]

This is the best translation I have found

The Book of Enoch Index

CHAPTER XIII.
1. And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl,

p. 40

thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds: 2. And thou shalt not have toleration nor †request† granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' 3. Then I went and spoke to them all together, and they were all afraid, and fear and trembling seized them. 4. And they besought me to draw up a petition for them that they might find forgiveness, and to read their petition in the presence of the Lord of heaven. 5. For from thenceforward they could not speak (with Him) nor lift up their eyes to heaven for shame of their sins for which they had been condemned. 6. Then I wrote out their petition, and the prayer in regard to their spirits and their deeds individually and in regard to their requests that they should have forgiveness and length 〈of days〉†. 7. And I went off and sat down at the waters of Dan, in the land of Dan, to the south of the west of Hermon: I read their petition till I fell asleep. 8. And behold a dream came to me, and visions fell down upon me, and I saw visions of chastisement, ⌈and a voice came bidding (me)⌉ I to tell it to the sons of heaven, and reprimand them. 9. And when I awaked, I came unto them, and they were all sitting gathered together, weeping in ’Abelsjâîl, which is between Lebanon and Sênêsêr, with their faces covered. 10. And I recounted before them all the visions which I had seen in sleep, and I began to speak the words of righteousness, and to reprimand the heavenly Watchers.

I find it to be very interesting indeed that this happened in the territory of the Tribe of Dan.......

"IN JEWISH TRADITION JUDAH AND DAN ARE OFTEN JUXTAPOSITIONED. SAMSON THE

SUPERMAN-HERO CAME FROM THE TRIBE OF DAN BUT HIS MOTHER

WAS FROM JUDAH. SAMSON, IN SOME RESPECTS, WAS CONSIDERED A

FORERUNNER OF THE MESSIAH WHO WILL COME FROM JUDAH BUT HIS

MOTHER ACCORDING TO THE MIDRASH, WILL BE OF THE TRIBE OF DAN.

BOTH JUDAH AND DAN WERE REPRESENTED BY A LION, THOUGH DAN HAS

ADDITIONAL SYMBOLS SUCH AS THE SNAKE AND DRAGON." ["LOST ISRAELITE IDENTITY," BY YAIR DAVIDY, PAGE 177.]

 

[he-man]

Matthew 22:23

¶
The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

......

Act 23:7

¶
And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both."

Mark 12:25 we shall be like the Angels in heaven they neither marry or are given in marriage" so where does that leave your fallen Angel?

 

[Vicomte13]

Your opening point is a crucial one indeed.....................
certain books were rejected by the RCC due to biases that had developed in the RCC by that time.

That's one way of looking at it.

Here is mine. God lives in the Catholic Church. Jesus breathed his Holy Spirit into the Apostles, and sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in the Church that he founded through the Apostles. So, when the Catholic Church - which is the Church that Jesus founded through the Apostles - speaks authoritatively on dogmatic matters (such as the Canon), that is God speaking directly. The Catholic Church IS God when it speaks on dogma.

The Bible CAN mean lots of things, but the Bible is not God. God is God, and God lives in the Catholic Church, so when the Catholic Church says dogmatically "The Bible MEANS this", that is God speaking directly, as God, giving the complete answer, and striking down all opposed opinions.

The "biases" that exist in the Catholic Church on matters of dogma are God's own biases, because the dogmas of the Catholic Church are all directly revealed by God. When the Church speaks dogmatically, that IS God speaking. It is more authoritative than any read of the Bible, because God MEANT something when he inspired those authors. He COULD have meant many things, but where it's important to him, he opens his mouth and TELLS YOU what he meant. The mouth of God is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

THAT is why the Catholic Church, alone, is infallible on all matters of dogma. Because it is not the Church speaking in such cases, it God speaking directly and plainly.

Obviously this is the diametric opposite of what you believe on the matter. In fact, to you, this is IDOLATRY. The Catholic Church IS GOD. The Holy Spirit lives IN the Church, and when the Church speaks dogmatically THAT IS GOD SPEAKING OUT LOUD ON EARTH TODAY. Nothing can be held up by mere men AGAINST God. Not the Bible. Not Tradition. Nothing. The Catholic Church is God speaking, when the Church speaks dogmatically - the Catholic Church, being God in such cases - can never err, and all arguments opposed to its dogmas are direct attacks on God.

That's obviously the very strongest assertion of the authority of God, and what the Church IS, that you'll ever see.

It's obviously idolatry, to you.
It's obviously so, to me.

Given these two polar opposite positions, obviously anything about Church politics is irrelevant to me. God sees all the politics, but he's still God, and when he speaks, through flawed men (such as the authors of Scripture, and Popes and Cardinals and Bishops), he nevertheless makes sure that they wrote, and that they speak, precisely what it is his will to say.

So, IF the early Church had biases against Enoch, those biases were put in their heads by God - they were holy resistance to falsehood. When the Church spoke out the canon, that was God telling the world directly - direct revelation from God - of what GOD considers Scripture. One can search the Scripture to understand, but what Scripture IS was revealed directly by God, because the Catholic Church IS God, when it speaks on dogma. Dogma is revealed like Scripture - God speaks THROUGH men whom he has selected as his vessels. In this way, God inspired the Scripture, and God inspired all Catholic dogma. Which is why neither can err.

One can err in his interpretation of Scripture and dogma, which is why, from time to time, God reveals MORE dogma, through the Church, to clarify what people are not getting.

Once again, obviously you can't agree with any of it.

Still, with the very purist position put forward, it IS possible to discuss things like Enoch.

The book of Enoch, and all of the books rejected from the Catholic canon, are not inspired by God. So they cannot be relied on for anything that contradicts that which WAS inspired by God.

What is it about Enoch, then, that is interesting? After all, Jesus, Peter and Jude all quoted it. Jesus quoted it to refer to the Son of Man. Peter and Jude quoted it with regards to angels leaving their stations. We know those things are so. Jesus was son of man and son of God, both - the ultimate Nephil, I suppose, but not evil because God chose to father him. The angels did indeed leave their stations - the ones that did are demons and devils, and they torment people. Other angels guard us.

900 foot high nephilim in the age of Jonah? No. That's an exaggeration. Dinosaur-sized beasts that were the products of angelic unions with living creatures? That may be where the dinosaurs came from in the first place, and where the dragons came from after the Flood. Maybe. Doesn't matter theologically either way, but it's interesting to speculate about.

 

[Vicomte13]

But remember... the question being polled was..... "Can demons be given HOPE?"

By the Father, yes, of course. For he is also THEIR Father too. He tarries bringing an end to the world and bringing the new world to be, perhaps in part because he doesn't want to destroy his first children who have fallen, the angels.

From Jesus? No, Jesus offers them no hope. He was a man, and the fallen angels are the bitter and deadly adversaries of man, preying on us, tormenting us for sport, like vicious boys pulling wings off of flies. Jesus the divine man is above all a MAN who is divine. He hates the demons and devils and all that torment man, and he will destroy them when the time comes.

But he doesn't know when that time comes. Only the Father knows that, and the Father tarries.

So, does Satan have hope? Ask the Father. He'll get none from Jesus.
Consider, should Hitler have hope? He's alive, somewhere in Gehenna probably. Should he have hope of redemption? How about Dr. Mengele? Should they have hope? We may each have our opinion, but one man only - Jesus - has the ultimate decision on that.

Should the spirit that twisted Hitler and Mengele, and Pol Pot and Stalin, and every other torturer and butcher in all of history - should Satan have hope? When man - the son of Eve - passes final judgment on Satan, should WE let him off the hook, after all he has done to us? Would that be just by any stretch of the human mind?

We already know the answer. Man WILL judge Satan - the man who will do that judgment is named Jesus - and Jesus will throw Satan into the fire. So man will judge Satan on the totality of his crimes and condemn him to everlasting fire.

But the Father - he tarries. If Satan has hope, it is in the mercy of the Father. He will find none at all from the Son. And if the Father tarries and tarries and tarries...?

Could Satan finally repent, cease evil, return to serve God, and eventually be the servant of great debt who was forgiven by the king? With God all things are possible, but if something like that were to happen, it would be the decision of God the Father. The judgment of the Son of Man and of God has already been pronounced.

Might Jesus himself forgive Satan in the end? There is no revealed basis to believe that at all. Jesus, after all, had to go through the full unmitigated experience of being tortured to death, as have so many millions of others over the ages, all for Satan's pleasure. Is mankind going to forgive Satan - remembering that Jesus is not just the avatar of God but also of mankind? Doesn't seem likely.

Might the Father? Only the Father knows that.

 

[DennisTate]

By the Father, yes, of course. For he is also THEIR Father too. He tarries bringing an end to the world and bringing the new world to be, perhaps in part because he doesn't want to destroy his first children who have fallen, the angels.

From Jesus? No, Jesus offers them no hope. He was a man, and the fallen angels are the bitter and deadly adversaries of man, preying on us, tormenting us for sport, like vicious boys pulling wings off of flies. Jesus the divine man is above all a MAN who is divine. He hates the demons and devils and all that torment man, and he will destroy them when the time comes.

But he doesn't know when that time comes. Only the Father knows that, and the Father tarries.

So, does Satan have hope? Ask the Father. He'll get none from Jesus.
Consider, should Hitler have hope? He's alive, somewhere in Gehenna probably. Should he have hope of redemption? How about Dr. Mengele? Should they have hope? We may each have our opinion, but one man only - Jesus - has the ultimate decision on that.

Should the spirit that twisted Hitler and Mengele, and Pol Pot and Stalin, and every other torturer and butcher in all of history - should Satan have hope? When man - the son of Eve - passes final judgment on Satan, should WE let him off the hook, after all he has done to us? Would that be just by any stretch of the human mind?

We already know the answer. Man WILL judge Satan - the man who will do that judgment is named Jesus - and Jesus will throw Satan into the fire. So man will judge Satan on the totality of his crimes and condemn him to everlasting fire.

But the Father - he tarries. If Satan has hope, it is in the mercy of the Father. He will find none at all from the Son. And if the Father tarries and tarries and tarries...?

Could Satan finally repent, cease evil, return to serve God, and eventually be the servant of great debt who was forgiven by the king? With God all things are possible, but if something like that were to happen, it would be the decision of God the Father. The judgment of the Son of Man and of God has already been pronounced.

Might Jesus himself forgive Satan in the end? There is no revealed basis to believe that at all. Jesus, after all, had to go through the full unmitigated experience of being tortured to death, as have so many millions of others over the ages, all for Satan's pleasure. Is mankind going to forgive Satan - remembering that Jesus is not just the avatar of God but also of mankind? Doesn't seem likely.

Might the Father? Only the Father knows that.

Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have some serious insight on this Sir!!!!!

Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus offered the fallen angels no hope.... that is true!

The final Elijah on the other hand... .may be given the opportunity to finish
off an offer that was made to the Patriarch Enoch....... when Azazel and the Watchers entreated our great, great, great, great....... grandfather Enoch.........to intercede for them to the Ancient of Days the Father!!!!!!

Hebrews 2:16

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

 

[SkyWriting]

We do need to go past denomination differences and concentrate more on what we have in common.....

Yes. We need to stop playing around with the minor laws.
There is one narrow gate and one wide path.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another
in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would
have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and
the prophets.

 

[DennisTate]

By the Father, yes, of course. For he is also THEIR Father too. He tarries bringing an end to the world and bringing the new world to be, perhaps in part because he doesn't want to destroy his first children who have fallen, the angels.

From Jesus? No, Jesus offers them no hope. He was a man, and the fallen angels are the bitter and deadly adversaries of man, preying on us, tormenting us for sport, like vicious boys pulling wings off of flies. Jesus the divine man is above all a MAN who is divine. He hates the demons and devils and all that torment man, and he will destroy them when the time comes.

But he doesn't know when that time comes. Only the Father knows that, and the Father tarries.

So, does Satan have hope? Ask the Father. He'll get none from Jesus.
Consider, should Hitler have hope? He's alive, somewhere in Gehenna probably. Should he have hope of redemption? How about Dr. Mengele? Should they have hope? We may each have our opinion, but one man only - Jesus - has the ultimate decision on that.

Should the spirit that twisted Hitler and Mengele, and Pol Pot and Stalin, and every other torturer and butcher in all of history - should Satan have hope? When man - the son of Eve - passes final judgment on Satan, should WE let him off the hook, after all he has done to us? Would that be just by any stretch of the human mind?

We already know the answer. Man WILL judge Satan - the man who will do that judgment is named Jesus - and Jesus will throw Satan into the fire. So man will judge Satan on the totality of his crimes and condemn him to everlasting fire.

But the Father - he tarries. If Satan has hope, it is in the mercy of the Father. He will find none at all from the Son. And if the Father tarries and tarries and tarries...?

Could Satan finally repent, cease evil, return to serve God, and eventually be the servant of great debt who was forgiven by the king? With God all things are possible, but if something like that were to happen, it would be the decision of God the Father. The judgment of the Son of Man and of God has already been pronounced.

Might Jesus himself forgive Satan in the end? There is no revealed basis to believe that at all. Jesus, after all, had to go through the full unmitigated experience of being tortured to death, as have so many millions of others over the ages, all for Satan's pleasure. Is mankind going to forgive Satan - remembering that Jesus is not just the avatar of God but also of mankind? Doesn't seem likely.

Might the Father? Only the Father knows that.

Wow!!!!!

Phenomenally insightful answers again Vicomte13........

I have an offer to make to Pope Francis himself if he is interested........ I have pretty much laid it out through these discussion forums........

For all I know... maybe you are a Bishop..... whether you are or not... I have a couple of discussions going that I would love for you to pass on to your priest or bishop or cardinal...........

because there are prophecies from the eighth century Catholic Encyclopaedia that I can at least offer a theory on........
and if it is of no other use.... that theory that I can explain could be a stepping stone to what must be done by the Roman Catholic Church at this time..........


Pope Francis, President Trump, 4.3 Trillion Petro-Dollars and JUBILEE!

 

[Vicomte13]

Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have some serious insight on this Sir!!!!!

Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus offered the fallen angels no hope.... that is true!

The final Elijah on the other hand... .may be given the opportunity to finish
off an offer that was made to the Patriarch Enoch....... when Azazel and the Watchers entreated our great, great, great, great....... grandfather Enoch.........to intercede for them to the Ancient of Days the Father!!!!!!

Hebrews 2:16

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

The last will be first and the first will be last.

Think, for a minute, if that principle really applies to all souls. Thus you have man standing in judgment of the angels.

Whether there should be mercy or hope for the fallen angels or Satan is an interesting speculation.

But let's move down a rung. Man will judge the angels. That has been revealed. Suppose what has also been revealed but not understood is that sheep will judge men.

Jesus is, after all, the Lamb of God, and in John's Revelation, at the height of the revelation in Heaven, he did not see Jesus standing there before the sealed scroll: he saw a lamb.

Suppose Jesus is not simply a god-man, but also a god-sheep. He will judge the angels as a man, and man as a man, but suppose for a moment that he will also judge man as a lamb - as a sheep.

How would the sheep judge men?

"You take our babies and eat them. You take the milk we make for our babies. You eat our flesh. You skin us. You slit our throats for your bizarre religious rituals."

Are we not demons to the sheep? Smarter than they are. Immensely stronger. More cunning. We lead them easily. They follow peacefully. And we slaughter them all. We take their babies and kill them and eat them. All of them. Are we ever kind to any sheep?

Suppose the Lamb of God judges us as a Lamb, for the sheep.

Would the only possible atonement be for us to realize that we stand, in relation to the sheep, as the demons do in relationship to us, and choose, of our own volition, to reduce the pleasure of our lives by ceasing to eat the offspring of our subject species?

Would we not say that the demons would have to do the same, to have any "hope" of being forgiven?

Or do we believe that we've just gotta eat the babies of the weakest, and the demons, too, just gotta eat our souls and bodies, because for us to do without their flesh, or for the demons to do without ours, would be just too inconvenient and take the savor out of life?

Can the demons be saved if they keep eating us?
Can the humans be saved if we keep eating the lambs?

 

[Blade]

Well the word says the heaven and earth are mans... the heavens (2nd 3rd) are GODS. The fallen don't need a host like demons do. And this is one area you DON'T play with. The short is.. if you start using your GOD given authority in places we don't have a right. You can get into big trouble.

Angels are not Gods Children.. we are. If an angel some how appeared to you he would say your Father said.. never have we heard our Father.

 

[DennisTate]

Yes. We need to stop playing around with the minor laws.
There is one narrow gate and one wide path.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another
in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would
have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and
the prophets.

Yes.. by worrying too much about minor laws.... vs.....
loving G-d with our heart, mind and soul and strength.....
and loving our neighbour as ourselves..........

.... we offend the little ones.......

which is not a small sin...... it is a HUGE ONE!


Mat 18:6

¶
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

“Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

 

[DennisTate]

The last will be first and the first will be last.

Think, for a minute, if that principle really applies to all souls. Thus you have man standing in judgment of the angels.

Whether there should be mercy or hope for the fallen angels or Satan is an interesting speculation.

But let's move down a rung. Man will judge the angels. That has been revealed. Suppose what has also been revealed but not understood is that sheep will judge men.

Jesus is, after all, the Lamb of God, and in John's Revelation, at the height of the revelation in Heaven, he did not see Jesus standing there before the sealed scroll: he saw a lamb.

Suppose Jesus is not simply a god-man, but also a god-sheep. He will judge the angels as a man, and man as a man, but suppose for a moment that he will also judge man as a lamb - as a sheep.

How would the sheep judge men?

"You take our babies and eat them. You take the milk we make for our babies. You eat our flesh. You skin us. You slit our throats for your bizarre religious rituals."

Are we not demons to the sheep? Smarter than they are. Immensely stronger. More cunning. We lead them easily. They follow peacefully. And we slaughter them all. We take their babies and kill them and eat them. All of them. Are we ever kind to any sheep?

Suppose the Lamb of God judges us as a Lamb, for the sheep.

Would the only possible atonement be for us to realize that we stand, in relation to the sheep, as the demons do in relationship to us, and choose, of our own volition, to reduce the pleasure of our lives by ceasing to eat the offspring of our subject species?

Would we not say that the demons would have to do the same, to have any "hope" of being forgiven?

Or do we believe that we've just gotta eat the babies of the weakest, and the demons, too, just gotta eat our souls and bodies, because for us to do without their flesh, or for the demons to do without ours, would be just too inconvenient and take the savor out of life?

Can the demons be saved if they keep eating us?
Can the humans be saved if we keep eating the lambs?

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One near death experience in six involves a meeting with a previously deceased pet!

Little Mr. Colton Burpo reported meeting lots of pets in his trip to heaven.......!

One of the only churches so far..... to actively invite Mr. Colton Burpo to work with them.... is the Catholic Church!

Roman Catholics tend to be the most humble Christians that I know of........
their ancestors being involved in the Spanish Inquisition will tend to produce humility.......
but... in these end of days.......
If Catholics and Mormons are the first to recognize people like Betty Eadie and Colton Burpo then............

Matthew 21:32

For John the Baptist came and showed you the right way to live, but you didn't believe him, while tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to believe him and repent of your sins."

 

[Vicomte13]

Yes. We need to stop playing around with the minor laws.
There is one narrow gate and one wide path.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another
in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would
have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and
the prophets.

And do not forget the single most important law that Jesus gave.

BECAUSE we all - all of us who are capable of reading - sin, and because the list of sins that will cause one to fail final judgment include lying, sexual immorality, being "filthy", being a "dog", cowardice and the like, we are all doomed to the lake of fire - all of us. But Jesus gave us a way to be forgiven sins.

No, it isn't believing in him. That's part of it. But the believing part means you do what he said, and what he said was, to be forgiven sin, you have to forgive others THEIR sins against you.

Jesus said that clearly, and even put it in both versions of the Lord's Prayer that are in the Scripture. He taught it in a few places.

"How to be forgiven" is probably THE most important commandment.

Think about the way it was in Israel: animal sacrifice, atonement, periods of separation, the lustral waters of the red heifer. How to be washed clean of uncleanness and absolved of sin is absolutely CENTRAL to the whole law of the Jews.

It is likewise central to Christianity, because the list of deadly sins is NOT the Jewish Ten Commandments. It's a new list. Murder is on the Christian list, but theft, sabbath breaking, coveting and dishonoring parents is not. "False witness" is one of the Ten, but the Christian list goes farther and just includes lying. Adultery, in the Ten Commandments, expands massively to include ALL sexual immorality. Idolatry is on both lists, but cowardice, being filthy, being a dog, and being a drug peddler appear nowhere in the Ten Commandments, but are all on the Christian list of things that will earn you the Lake of Fire.

Christians past the age of 2 or 3 will all end in the Lake of Fire unless they are forgiven. Forgiveness for Christians is as important as it was for Hebrews, but it requires a completely different ritual. Gone are the sacrifices. In their place, is the requirement to forgive. If you want God to forgive you, you have to forgive others their sins against you.

That is the most important commandment of all, because it's the WAY to pass final judgment. Truth is, it's easier to forgive people for their lies and sexual immorality than it is to remain free of all lies and all sexual immorality ourselves.

Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light - and it's certainly a lot lighter and easier than the costly animal sacrifices under the law, and the need to devote so much time to ritual. It's easier to commit a deadly sin in Christianity, though, as the list of behaviors that will get you damned is longer.

Jesus provides one way out: forgive others as you would have God forgive you. THAT should be taught front and center, because it's the most important commandment.

 

[DennisTate]

Well the word says the heaven and earth are mans... the heavens (2nd 3rd) are GODS. The fallen don't need a host like demons do. And this is one area you DON'T play with. The short is.. if you start using your GOD given authority in places we don't have a right. You can get into big trouble.

Angels are not Gods Children.. we are. If an angel some how appeared to you he would say your Father said.. never have we heard our Father.

Well said......
all true but.........
could G-d the FAther the Ancient of Days be in more trouble than any human being can begin to imagine.......?

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

 

[he-man]

And do not forget the single most important law that Jesus gave.

BECAUSE we all - all of us who are capable of reading - sin, and because the list of sins that will cause one to fail final judgment include lying, sexual immorality, being "filthy", being a "dog", cowardice and the like, we are all doomed to the lake of fire - all of us. But Jesus gave us a way to be forgiven sins.

No, it isn't believing in him. That's part of it. But the believing part means you do what he said, and what he said was, to be forgiven sin, you have to forgive others THEIR sins against you.

Jesus said that clearly, and even put it in both versions of the Lord's Prayer that are in the Scripture. He taught it in a few places.

"How to be forgiven" is probably THE most important commandment.

Think about the way it was in Israel: animal sacrifice, atonement, periods of separation, the lustral waters of the red heifer. How to be washed clean of uncleanness and absolved of sin is absolutely CENTRAL to the whole law of the Jews.

It is likewise central to Christianity, because the list of deadly sins is NOT the Jewish Ten Commandments. It's a new list. Murder is on the Christian list, but theft, sabbath breaking, coveting and dishonoring parents is not. "False witness" is one of the Ten, but the Christian list goes farther and just includes lying. Adultery, in the Ten Commandments, expands massively to include ALL sexual immorality. Idolatry is on both lists, but cowardice, being filthy, being a dog, and being a drug peddler appear nowhere in the Ten Commandments, but are all on the Christian list of things that will earn you the Lake of Fire.

Christians past the age of 2 or 3 will all end in the Lake of Fire unless they are forgiven. Forgiveness for Christians is as important as it was for Hebrews, but it requires a completely different ritual. Gone are the sacrifices. In their place, is the requirement to forgive. If you want God to forgive you, you have to forgive others their sins against you.

That is the most important commandment of all, because it's the WAY to pass final judgment. Truth is, it's easier to forgive people for their lies and sexual immorality than it is to remain free of all lies and all sexual immorality ourselves.

Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light - and it's certainly a lot lighter and easier than the costly animal sacrifices under the law, and the need to devote so much time to ritual. It's easier to commit a deadly sin in Christianity, though, as the list of behaviors that will get you damned is longer.

Jesus provides one way out: forgive others as you would have God forgive you. THAT should be taught front and center, because it's the most important commandment.

Mark 12:25 so sorry no fallen Angels

 

[GUANO]

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Pastor Rick Joyner in a visionary dream of heaven given to him back in 1995 states that arrows with the name HOPE on them would be the ones that would work against the demons!




(Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest):



I go into a theory here that we may be living in the time period when the kingdom of Satan is divided..... and it falls:

Does Darth Vader = Azazel = Zeus???

The scripture posted does not specify fighting against demons or goblins so why would anyone waste their time on that?

1. Principalities are government institutions, municipalities, etc... The state. Not the people

2. Powers are authorities. Actual authorities, not people who claim authority but the basis and principle by which they claim authority when all authority belongs to God.

3. The rulers of darkness of this world are ideologies, philosophies, worldviews, doctrines, etc...

4. Spiritual wickedness in high places would be things like sexual deviance, racism, warmongering, vanity, materialism, callousness, tyranny, and other things at the highest levels in our society.

Spiritual warfare is not about hiding yourself in a room, although there is a place for that, it's about confronting the darkness (ignorance and evil) of this world and confronting it head on with the Word of God. Its about being a light to the world and fighting with words to release the souls (people) in spiritual (mental) bondage.

If you believe in demons and goblins you will have dreams and visions about demons and goblins. You should fight against the powers of superstition and paganism that manifest themselves in the doctrines of false prophets.

There are real demons and spirits in the world but if you don't even have an accurate definition of what a spirit or demon is in reality, then you'll just be struggling on the sidelines and be aiding and abetting said evil rather than fighting it.

I study Demonology, the occult, mysticism, and the like to know my enemy and to spot it's wiles and workings in the world. If you want to move up to combatting things like sorcery and witchcraft you gotta start with the basics.

Rick Joyner had a dream or vision but does he even know how to interpret such things? Dreams and visions are "the thoughts of thy heart" according to both Daniel AND modern psychoanalysts.

Zeus is the sky God like the Egyptian Ma'at or the Babylonian Anu. It is what the Bible calls "the firmament". It holds fast the heavenly bodies which are the symbols of influence in high places and most specifically government and religion. In Star Wars, The Force is Zeus while Darth Vader would be a planetary being such as the moon or Mars and the Emperor would be either the Sun or Saturn but George Lucas did not base star wars on Astrology or Astrolatry, it's based more on a mish-mash of popular myths like Hercules and the Babylonian Enuma Elish and even has some Christian and eastern religious themes. Azazel is not Zeus and is not even a close comparison. I haven't read the link but I'm going to check it out now.

 

[SkyWriting]

"How to be forgiven" is probably THE most important commandment.

You didn't quote that becasue it doesn't say that. Forgiving others is the first part of each of those passages. And it is suggested in the verses I showed which actually state they are the foundation of all scripture.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Romans 13:8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another
in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would
have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and
the prophets.

 

[Vicomte13]

Wow!!!!!

Phenomenally insightful answers again Vicomte13........

I have an offer to make to Pope Francis himself if he is interested........ I have pretty much laid it out through these discussion forums........

For all I know... maybe you are a Bishop..... whether you are or not... I have a couple of discussions going that I would love for you to pass on to your priest or bishop or cardinal...........

because there are prophecies from the eighth century Catholic Encyclopaedia that I can at least offer a theory on........
and if it is of no other use.... that theory that I can explain could be a stepping stone to what must be done by the Roman Catholic Church at this time..........


Pope Francis, President Trump, 4.3 Trillion Petro-Dollars and JUBILEE!

Please give me a synopsis, either here or in a private mail thread. You can take as much time as you want to spell it out, but please don't send me to open links. Tell me what it is that you want me to know straight.

Do not feel the need to back up every word with Scripture. I'm a Catholic - Scripture is not the highest authority to me anyway, so you'll just be wasting your time trying to prove things to me using a technique that persuades Protestants but that persuades me of nothing at all.

If you really want to persuade me using SCRIPTURE, then you will have to limit yourself to words spoken directly by Christ himself, or by the Father from Heaven, or by YHWH, or Elohiym, or an angel bearing the message directly from God. Apostles and Prophets and other writers are all interesting, but they are not God and have the same sort of authority as the Catholic Church, but earlier in time. In other words, what the Church teaches about all of those subjects is of higher authority than what the earlier church, apostles, prophets, etc. taught.

If you really want to persuade me with Scripture, you must limit yourself exclusively to quoting God, and God alone, speaking as God, in the text. I will listen to those arguments. Don't argue that "every word comes from God" because that is not true. Every word might be INSPIRED by God, but that is also true of every word of Catholic dogma, because the teaching authority of the Catholic Church IS God, speaking directly, and what comes later in time trumps what comes earlier in time.

To prove something to a Catholic like me using Scripture, you can only quote Jesus or God directly. And note well that whatever Jesus says in Revelation is the most authoritative, because that is God's LAST WORD on the matter in Scripture, and Jesus commanded God to take dictation, giving the words greater exactitude than anything earlier. In a similar vein, please note that what Jesus says trumps anything to the contrary that YHWH said in the Old Testament, for the simple reason that in the Old Testament YHWH gave the Torah exclusively to the Hebrews, and only to and for them, so none of those laws after Noah that are in the Old Testament apply to me at all, and never did. Only what Jesus said applies to me, or what God said to Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel and Noah. Once God starts making deals with Abraham and his descendants, he is talking to THEM, not to ME, and none of his laws were ever made as laws for me.

The Ten Commandments never bound any of my ancestors and do not bind me. They are part of the covenant with the Hebrews, and only them. They never applied to anybody else on earth, and Jesus' coming didn't extend that Hebrew covenant to all mankind. Jesus said that not a word of the Torah would change, and the words of the Torah say on their face that they apply to Hebrews. Therefore, it is error to say that ANY OF IT, including the Ten Commandments, applies to Gentiles like me. It does not. It is history, and important, but it is NOT LAW AT ALL for people like me, and never was.

Likewise, Jesus freed JEWS from that Law, but he didn't free ME from it. I was never under it in the first place. I'm under the Law of Noah, the Law of Adam and Eve, and the Law of Jesus, and of course the Law of God as revealed by the Church, the Canon Law.

I don't expect you to learn the Canon Law. If you want to use "Scripture Alone" to persuade me, stick to the words directly spoken by Jesus and you can make an argument.

Really, just present what you think, as you think it. Where I already agree with you, no justification will need be made. I will already understand where you are coming from. Where I don't agree, or don't understand, I will ask for clarification.

In this way you can get the ideas you want to convey down more quickly, and you will not need to muck around endlessly in Scriptural verses that I am not going to interpret the way you do anyway. If you want to use Scripture to bolster a point, quote Jesus. Don't quote Paul - the Church is superior in authority to Paul, and Peter, and John, and James, and all of the Jewish traditions. I like Paul, but he is most abused of all of the apostles by people who take Paul's opinions and try to make them laws of God. They are not, and they never will be.

That's a lot of instructions, but it should make your way forward easier. Just say what you think in your own voice, bolstering it with Jesus (just him) if you feel you need to. And let me ask you questions.

If you want to do that here, before the (angry) eyes of others, fire away. If you want to do it in a private thread, initiate it and I will answer.

 

[SkyWriting]

One near death experience in six involves a meeting with a previously deceased pet!

Yahhh...that didn't happen. Animals are for eating.
Not that I would eat my pets, but people do.