Will someone explain the 7 churches that was addressed in Revelations?

[1stcenturylady]

If by prophetic you mean the predictive element, that comes after Jesus starts opening the seals. The seeds of the churches in Asia Minor have been scattered to the four winds, you can find churches and believers like them around the globe to this day. These are our most important mother churches, we can understand the full grown tree sometimes by looking at the sapling. The problems associated with these churches exist to this day, so do the blessings of their ministries.

It's kind of interesting. Rome identifies with the first century ministry in Rome, the Orthodox more identify with the Antioch Syria church. The bulk of church growth happened in Asia Minor, that is a commonly overlooked fact of church history.

I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree that the 7 churches had nothing prophetic about them. It is clear as day to me, but to each his own.

 

[mark kennedy]

I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree that the 7 churches had nothing prophetic about them. It is clear as day to me, but to each his own.

Prophecy is tricky, there is a reason for the church that Christ chose those seven. Maybe because they would represent 7 ages, maybe 7 kinds of believers, maybe something else. I'm open to the idea but find most of what I'm seeing largely unconvincing.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

The seven churches were seven real, historical, local churches which existed during John's time when he received the visions which became the book of Revelation.

We can learn lessons from these churches because modern churches have some similar problems, temptations, and trials. The book of Revelation is actually very practical. I wrote an OP on this topic two months ago. You may read it here.

If you do read my post, please return to this thread to discuss it.

An interesting, unusual take on the book. I like how you related it to persecution because the word for tribulation is a word in the New Testament most often used for persecution, only a couple of times for judgment. I take that to mean the reason for the tribulation is because of what people are doing to God's saints. At the end of the seals and the beginning of the trumpet blasts there are the prayers of the saints.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Prophecy is tricky, there is a reason for the church that Christ chose those seven. Maybe because they would represent 7 ages, maybe 7 kinds of believers, maybe something else. I'm open to the idea but find most of what I'm seeing largely unconvincing.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I believe the three-fold meaning, which includes those particular churches, those types of Christians, but mainly the prophetic ages. When you understand where Jesus sees us in church history, you know the time is short. He is coming soon.

 

[mark kennedy]

I believe the three-fold meaning, which includes those particular churches, those types of Christians, but mainly the prophetic ages. When you understand where Jesus sees us in church history, you know the time is short. He is coming soon.

I can see how, for instance, the Ephesian church could be identified with the Apostolic age. I can certainly see how the present age could be identified with the Laodician church. One of the things that most interests me is how the ministry in Asia Minor developed, spontaneously and with minimal Apostolic help. Evangelism is always from faith to faith, I just think it's neat and informative that this church was being so active before Paul had the chance to minister to them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I can see how, for instance, the Ephesian church could be identified with the Apostolic age. I can certainly see how the present age could be identified with the Laodician church. One of the things that most interests me is how the ministry in Asia Minor developed, spontaneously and with minimal Apostolic help. Evangelism is always from faith to faith, I just think it's neat and informative that this church was being so active before Paul had the chance to minister to them.

Myrrh was used for burials, so Smyrna is obviously the time of martyrdom, when it was illegal to be christian. They had to hide in catacombs, otherwise were killed by lions in the barbaric arenas.

 

[mark kennedy]

Myrrh was used for burials, so Smyrna is obviously the time of martyrdom, when it was illegal to be christian. They had to hide in catacombs, otherwise were killed by lions in the barbaric arenas.

There were mountains east of Ephesus but the Roman road followed the coast to Pergamus, which was the seat of Roman rule. Along the way was Smyrna, even before the first century they were known to be loyal to Rome, literally giving the shirts off their backs to support Rome during an invasion. They were known in the Byzantine empire as faithful Smyrna and the Muslims when they came around called it infidel Smyrna because the rest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey had been converted to Islam. The city was only a part of the community, the suburbs sprawled out for miles into the foothills. One time the city was burned to the ground, they were thought to be dead but they were alive, they just moved into the foothills. Jesus builds on that, you are poor but you are rich he tells them. As far as anyone knew that church had been erased but they were still there and that church endured another thousand years. Except for Philadelphia the other churches endured a few hundred years, Philadelphia for over 800 years. They were beloved among the Byzantines, one of those unknown legacies with a ministry that endured longer then any of the other churches of Asia Minor.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There were mountains east of Ephesus but the Roman road followed the coast to Pergamus, which was the seat of Roman rule. Along the way was Smyrna, even before the first century they were known to be loyal to Rome, literally giving the shirts off their backs to support Rome during an invasion. They were known in the Byzantine empire as faithful Smyrna and the Muslims when they came around called it infidel Smyrna because the rest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey had been converted to Islam. The city was only a part of the community, the suburbs sprawled out for miles into the foothills. One time the city was burned to the ground, they were thought to be dead but they were alive, they just moved into the foothills. Jesus builds on that, you are poor but you are rich he tells them. As far as anyone knew that church had been erased but they were still there and that church endured another thousand years. Except for Philadelphia the other churches endured a few hundred years, Philadelphia for over 800 years. They were beloved among the Byzantines, one of those unknown legacies with a ministry that endured longer then any of the other churches of Asia Minor.

That may be true of the city and is interesting, but not of the prophecy. What can you tell me of the city of Thyatira? Also, I asked you a question in #134 you missed. Still waiting and am interested.

 

[mark kennedy]

That may be true of the city and is interesting, but not of the prophecy. What can you tell me of the city of Thyatira?

Continuing north to Pergamos the road goes a little east and then south. Thyatira sat on a river and it was not well fortified but had a small garrison. I've found very little on the longevity of the church, they appear to have been experiencing influences from the mystery religions Peter and others were so concerned with.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Continuing north to Pergamos the road goes a little east and then south. Thyatira sat on a river and it was not well fortified but had a small garrison. I've found very little on the longevity of the church, they appear to have been experiencing influences from the mystery religions Peter and others were so concerned with.

Yes, that fits with the prophecy also.

 

[fromtheearth]

Forgive me if these points were already mentioned, but I only had time to browse the first few pages of the thread and wanted to be sure they were posted/discussed.

With regard to who the letters were addressed to, my understanding is that it was actually one letter, with 7 elements, sent to all 7 churches, which indicates that all of the content was to be read by all churches. The description used to describe Jesus was just a part of the whole description given in chapter one. No complete description was given to any one church, meaning that you would need all 7 parts to have the complete description. Also, each church was given promises which together form the full promise to God's people, but no church received them all, indicating that the full message only exists when all 7 parts of the letter are read.
This angle explains the "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." indicating each message is to be heard by all, not just the church it is directed to.

Also, with regard to the choosing of the particular cities, there was a significant relevance in each case. I recall when I studied it, reading about the method of the city's water supply causing the mountain water to be lukewarm by the time it made its way to Laodicea, so the water was no longer "mountain cool" by the time it travelled and this allows use of a relevant feature to be used as an analogy for the state of the people in the church. There were many more too.

I believe the messages do have some significance to periods throughout history, but the better mentality is "if the shoe fits..." instead of worrying about classifying each of us into a category. THe whole point of Revelation is to reveal enough information to move us to a state of readiness, not to satisfy our curiosity.

Again, I apologise it I am double dipping on something already posted.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Forgive me if these points were already mentioned, but I only had time to browse the first few pages of the thread and wanted to be sure they were posted/discussed.

With regard to who the letters were addressed to, my understanding is that it was actually one letter, with 7 elements, sent to all 7 churches, which indicates that all of the content was to be read by all churches. The description used to describe Jesus was just a part of the whole description given in chapter one. No complete description was given to any one church, meaning that you would need all 7 parts to have the complete description. Also, each church was given promises which together form the full promise to God's people, but no church received them all, indicating that the full message only exists when all 7 parts of the letter are read.
This angle explains the "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." indicating each message is to be heard by all, not just the church it is directed to.

Also, with regard to the choosing of the particular cities, there was a significant relevance in each case. I recall when I studied it, reading about the method of the city's water supply causing the mountain water to be lukewarm by the time it made its way to Laodicea, so the water was no longer "mountain cool" by the time it travelled and this allows use of a relevant feature to be used as an analogy for the state of the people in the church. There were many more too.

I believe the messages do have some significance to periods throughout history, but the better mentality is "if the shoe fits..." instead of worrying about classifying each of us into a category. THe whole point of Revelation is to reveal enough information to move us to a state of readiness, not to satisfy our curiosity.

Again, I apologise it I am double dipping on something already posted.

Yes, you are right. There is a three-fold message going on here. We each need to strive to become Philadelphians and keep the pure Word of God without adding anything of the world, especially anything pagan where Satan has any hold.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Myrrh was used for burials, so Smyrna is obviously the time of martyrdom, when it was illegal to be christian. They had to hide in catacombs, otherwise were killed by lions in the barbaric arenas.

Myrrh was also used as a medication.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Myrrh was also used as a medication.

It was also one of the gifts given to Jesus at his birth prophesying his death.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, that fits with the prophecy also.

There are actually two kinds of prophecy, Oracle's and predictions Lamintations for example is nonpredictive. The last time a seen a serious attempt at a church age fulfillment had us in the philidelphian age transitioning to laodicia due to liberal theology and superficial emotionalism. I think as an evangelical I identify more with Ephesus because of the work in doctrine and apologetics.
,

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It was also one of the gifts given to Jesus at his birth prophesying his death.

Did you see that in a movie? Maybe the gifts were used to provide for themselves while in Egypt? Again, Myrrh was also used as medication.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There are actually two kinds of prophecy, Oracle's and predictions Lamintations for example is nonpredictive. The last time a seen a serious attempt at a church age fulfillment had us in the philidelphian age transitioning to laodicia due to liberal theology and superficial emotionalism. I think as an evangelical I identify more with Ephesus because of the work in doctrine and apologetics.
,

Liberal theology, I definately agree with. The point would be Laodecians are lukewarm. How many have you seen just about fall asleep in church, and Monday through Friday show no evidence of being Christian? As for emotionalism, I think "superficial" is in the eye of the beholder, and tells more about them than the one displaying emotion.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Did you see that in a movie? Maybe the gifts were used to provide for themselves while in Egypt? Again, Myrrh was also used as medication.

A movie? Are you saying that to be provoking? Again, medication is not the ONLY use for Myrrh. Did you read of any illness Jesus had? Did you read of His death? Which one applies?

 

[mark kennedy]

Liberal theology, I definately agree with. The point would be Laodecians are lukewarm. How many have you seen just about fall asleep in church, and Monday through Friday show no evidence of being Christian? As for emotionalism, I think "superficial" is in the eye of the beholder, and tells more about them than the one displaying emotion.

I have a little different theory, every couple hundred years the church swings from the super intellectual to super spiritual then back. The problems with the churches are informative but the blessings are more interesting. Thyatira had a few who had not solid their garments, the mention of jezebel suggest a prophetic manifestation

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have a little different theory, every couple hundred years the church swings from the super intellectual to super spiritual then back. The problems with the churches are informative but the blessings are more interesting. Thyatira had a few who had not solid their garments, the mention of jezebel suggest a prophetic manifestation

When you look back at the OT Jezebel, and know what the mystery religion of Babylon was, you can plainly see who this is talking about.