Delusion?

[Alithis]

Well, "never say never", the End Times will (according to Scripture) be full of lies, trickery & Deceit...

However I understand that that main sense of "unity" will (according to Scripture) be the global unity of "Gog & Magog" spiritually animated as an essentially unified "anti-Christian" movement

It Wil be anti anything or anyone that refuses to submit to it...
Since most religions have some kind of unifying clause... Some kind of false goddess .genuine disciple of Jesus Wil be the only ones who refuse conform.they will be considered the rebels..hunted down and executed.

There Wil be no fake ones then

 

[Erik Nelson]

Rev 20 alleges that there will be some surviving "camp of the Saints" at "The" Lord's Arrival, yes ?

 

[Alithis]

Rev 20 alleges that there will be some surviving "camp of the Saints" at "The" Lord's Arrival, yes ?

I'm not going to disagree..I've never believed the church will be caught away before hev comes but rather At his coming..
Which is after the beast is revealed

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm not going to disagree..I've never believed the church will be caught away before hev comes but rather At his coming..
Which is after the beast is revealed

Think you mean "the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction" ?

The "beast" exists before the Millennium, and is defeated at the "Second Coming Event" of Rev 19.

Once again, Scripture is "repetitive" -- as you surely well know, "history repeats itself". As if human history on earth was actually factually Spiritually directed, according to the Prophetic schedule & itinerary of Revelations. For Revelations is similarly repetitive, describing numerous cycles of "tribulation, victory & (even!) resurrection".

But, while the "beast" of Rev 17-19 and the "tribulations" it causes do resemble the "man of lawlessness, son of destruction" of Rev 20 and the End Times Tribulations coinciding with same, even so "the beast" is not identical with "the man of lawlessness".

But otherwise I think you are describing Scripture both accurately & precisely.

 

[Alithis]

Think you mean "the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction" ?

The "beast" exists before the Millennium, and is defeated at the "Second Coming Event" of Rev 19.

Once again, Scripture is "repetitive" -- as you surely well know, "history repeats itself". As if human history on earth was actually factually Spiritually directed, according to the Prophetic schedule & itinerary of Revelations. For Revelations is similarly repetitive, describing numerous cycles of "tribulation, victory & (even!) resurrection".

But, while the "beast" of Rev 17-19 and the "tribulations" it causes do resemble the "man of lawlessness, son of destruction" of Rev 20 and the End Times Tribulations coinciding with same, even so "the beast" is not identical with "the man of lawlessness".

But otherwise I think you are describing Scripture both accurately & precisely.

I wasnt even trying too be accurate lol..it's all the same ..all of the spirit of anti Christ.
I don't try to figure it all out .I generally stick to Peter's description which matches all the other scriptures and leave it at that.
What I do know..is that at his coming
I want to be found doing his will.
Not sitting on my thumbs wrangling doctrine about it

 

[Hal A Peno]

rtf

 

[Alithis]

You believe that because you've accepted the teachings of so called prophecy experts who do nothing but mislead people. There is no one world religion or government coming. The religion of the beast is here, and the region of his abode will be the Middle-East.

Don't even listen to such people.let alone adhere to thier teachings

Just stick to the scriptures.
Some of us just converse lightly between the speels of self proclaimed experts..

You need not address every post as deeply serious on a topic where no one really knows what on earth they are talking about..

 

[Hal A Peno]

sewrwr

 

[Alithis]

Well then stick to your guns. You said,

What you believe is a theory that first started out as a 'New Age Religion' about 20 years ago and developed into this unification stuff. I don't know who started the 'one world religion' theory people talk about, but that's not going to happen either. SO....
Show me where this unity of denominations is found and associated with the false prophet.

"There is no such thing as the apostate church. This apostasy is an end-time event associated with the man of sin and his followers and nothing else. It has NOTHING to do with Christians or the Church."

All I ask is for you to show me "the scriptures you stick to" to support what you said.

Haha.idont have any guns on the topic.
Its maybe this maybe that chit chat...
People who talk about it like they are the final authority I just mostly ignore.
I have heard it battered back and forth for far to many years and still no one's proven right.
So it's chit chat about conjecture to me.
So I'm not defending any of it.

But I Do know one fact...thier is presently a huge swing of denominations moving back under an alliegience with Rome and having to over look a world of evil to do so.

Why that is happening when it means denying true Faith in Jesus to do so..it requires an accepting of utterly false teaching like maryworship... Is a mystery..why it's happening so fast is a mystery
Why it will cause a deciding line between the sheep and the goats is not a mystery.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Exactly..the apostate church.
-A unity of denominations under a false prophet.-

I have thoroughly been intrigued by this discussion.

I believe what you are saying is 100% Scriptural and 100% right on the mark!

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Could the WHOLE WORLD BE DECEIVED, if it were NOT a STRONG delusion?

WHOLE(lacking no part)
WORLD(the earthly state of human existence)
DECEIVED(accept invalid falsehood as valid truth)


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Would you think it started when Satan was cast out INTO the earth?

So to ask; "What if" we were born into just such a situation would be a silly question, would it not?


What if what you are saying is exactly 100% Scriptural and true,
and it is hiding in plain sight,
but just appears normal because that is all we know?
(apostate church, unity of denominations under a false prophet)


And although it appeared there was no unity of denominations TO HUMAN EYES, it was actually there right in God's face?

So many questions. I apologize. Can I please ask just one more and I will stop.

If the TESTIMONY of;

Daniel
John(revelation)
Jesus Christ
God Himself
and Documented Human History

Exposed this strong delusion;

In a deceived world, do you believe there would be anyone that could hear, to share THEIR TESTIMONY with?

 

[Bible2+]

Alithis said in post #41:

genuine disciple of Jesus Wil be the only ones who refuse conform.they will be considered the rebels..hunted down and executed.

That's right.

So to all readers of this thread:

Read Mark 13:9-13 as applicable to you today if you're a Biblical Christian. For in our future, "political correctness" will make Biblical Christianity "hate speech", because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christianity is the only way to be saved (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

Be prepared to be arrested and tried before courts of law for the violation of "hate speech" laws which will be instituted in our future (by the Supreme Court, without any approval from the People in Congress). When you go to trial, remember Mark 13:9-13, and testify as God's Holy Spirit gives you at that time. But don't expect to be set free after your testimony. You must be willing to face imprisonment and even execution for the truths of Jesus Christ and His Word the Holy Bible (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 8:34-38, John 8:31b).

 

[Bible2+]

Erik Nelson said in post #42:

Rev 20 alleges that there will be some surviving "camp of the Saints" at "The" Lord's Arrival, yes ?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Note that this refers to the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), and shows it won't occur until after the future Millennium, when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the Millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the Millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the Millennium the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9) which after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least two major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the future Millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the Millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). Also, whereas the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the Great White Throne Judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus Christ's worldwide Kingdom, still legally under His rule, just as they had been during the preceding Millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the Millennium they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the Millennium, at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Also, the city of Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least three times before the Millennium: once near the start of the future Tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the Tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming and the start of the Millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

 

[Bible2+]

Erik Nelson said in post #44:

For Revelations is similarly repetitive, describing numerous cycles of "tribulation, victory & (even!) resurrection".

Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the 7th and last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then He will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

 

[Alithis]

I have thoroughly been intrigued by this discussion.

I believe what you are saying is 100% Scriptural and 100% right on the mark!

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Could the WHOLE WORLD BE DECEIVED, if it were NOT a STRONG delusion?

WHOLE(lacking no part)
WORLD(the earthly state of human existence)
DECEIVED(accept invalid falsehood as valid truth)


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Would you think it started when Satan was cast out INTO the earth?

So to ask; "What if" we were born into just such a situation would be a silly question, would it not?


What if what you are saying is exactly 100% Scriptural and true,
and it is hiding in plain sight,
but just appears normal because that is all we know?
(apostate church, unity of denominations under a false prophet)


And although it appeared there was no unity of denominations TO HUMAN EYES, it was actually there right in God's face?

So many questions. I apologize. Can I please ask just one more and I will stop.

If the TESTIMONY of;

Daniel
John(revelation)
Jesus Christ
God Himself
and Documented Human History

Exposed this strong delusion;

In a deceived world, do you believe there would be anyone that could hear, to share THEIR TESTIMONY with?

Yes . the elect .born again off the spirit of God who have forsaken sin .they hear listen obey and follow Jesus.
They do not continue in sin and seek to justify doing so.they do not listen to teachings of devil's that a man made church can save you.or that your just a sinner saved so it doesn't matter if you keep doing works of sin.or that you can orsy to the false goddess Mary or you can have special annointings with gold dust and Angel feathers making you special ...and many many many other teaching of devils...
But they are instead doers of Gods words and not hearers only.

Because if we hear ..but don't Do Jesus said WE DECIEVE OURSELVES.!

And if we refuse to repent if our self chosen decption then he will give us what WE choose .and a great delusion will fall upon us .each one as God knows the moment we have determined in our heart to NOT repent.

And that is already happening .
If we disobey the word of God and the holy Spirit. We are disobedient.
If we are his children and refuse to obeey we are become disobedient children.
The spirit of this world is at work in the children of disobedience.the spirit of this world is the spiritbif anti Christ.

When we hear Gods word (jesus) but we do not do it ..we do not obey him.
Then we obey the spirit of anti Christ by disobeying Christ.. We are already deceived if we do notvrepent immediately of doing so and go and Do his will.

His will is plain .

Go ..heal the sick preach the Gospel drive out devil's baptize in his name make more disciples..

They shall say But but but Lord Lord e did this and that in your name...
And he shall say depart from me you
Workers of iniquity...
Why ? Because they also kept doing works of SIN.

Of you think you can continue to practice sin .to do works of sin.
And still be saved..and you are convinced of that.
Then you have already entered the strong delusion.

(note: world in old testament means :system.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

We can only be responsible for ourselves.

For we will all stand INDIVIDUALLY before Christ.

Fear of that day is the start of a heart humbled to instruction

 

[Hal A Peno]

sdd

 

[Erik Nelson]

For years I've been asking people to show me where they find this 'new age religion" or unification of the world religions by Rome...OR HOW AND WHERE you find the Church involved in the apostasy, AND I CAN'T GET AN ANSWER! I guess you have a problem with the bibles authority, all I'm asking of you is to show me how you arrive at your conclusions. For years I've asked, for years NOT ONE PERSON has ever been able to show me.

The word "apostasy" from 2 Thess 2 is only elsewhere used to describe Jews' fears that St. Paul was teaching them an "apostasy" from the Law of Moses. Only Jews who kept the Law could apostasy / backslide from the same (Rom 5:13, "where no Law no sin"). "Apostasy" most obviously refers to formerly faithful believers backsliding from their Covenant.

 

[Hal A Peno]

v bcvcvb

 

[Bible2+]

Hal A Peno said in post #56:

For years I've been asking people to show me where they find this 'new age religion" . . .

The idea that the future Antichrist's one-world religion will be New Age is mistaken. For his religion will instead be Gnosticism.

Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

--

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the 4 points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there's nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) in an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming, He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a New Earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

--

Gnosticism is different than New Age.

New Age is a modern spiritual movement which says everything is One and we're all God, we just need to realize it. This mistaken idea comes from "Advaita (Non-duality)" Vedanta Hinduism, by way of Theosophy (the founder of which used the term "New Age" in her book "The Secret Doctrine" in 1888). Unlike Gnostics, New Age adherents don't think the material realm is evil per se. They don't want to escape this physical life, or stop "reincarnating", but want to create their own amazing destinies within this physical universe (whether during their lives on this planet, or after being reincarnated on some other planets), or in some other, spiritual universes, by employing their own, innate powers as God. They believe all they have to do is think the right things, and because (as they say) "Thought Creates", whatever they think will materialize, eventually. They think they can override physical reality as God, create their own reality around themselves, and make it whatever they want.

Also, for New Age adherents ultimately nothing is evil: There's no such thing as sin, for everything is God. Even people who seem evil are just working through some lessons. They will eventually become tired of toying with that which is merely delaying them from manifesting themselves as the wonderful God they are. New Age adherents believe everyone and everything in the universe is working together, whether they consciously realize it or not, to move everything forward, to ultimately bring the entire universe (and even the entire universe of universes) into a wonderful, perfect destiny for everyone and everything. This sounds good, but it's a Satanic pipe dream, so people will feel no need to fear the eternal suffering of hell (Luke 12:5, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46), feel no need to repent from their sins (Luke 13:3) and believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the only begotten (only-born) Son of God (John 14:6, John 3:16,36, Acts 4:12), and His suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25-26).

 

[Bible2+]

Erik Nelson said in post #57:

"Apostasy" most obviously refers to formerly faithful believers backsliding from their Covenant.

That's right.

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the Church will depart from faith in Jesus Christ in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For (as you pointed out in your post) Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge everyone in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the Church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).