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  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    In Daniel 7, the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear) and Greece (leopard). The fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43 the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

    But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

    The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9) which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24) could mean the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

    The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

    This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

    Regarding Daniel 7:25's "time and times and the dividing of time", just as regarding Revelation's 42 months and 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they're all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the three days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the three days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days; and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5), and the 400 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Genesis 15:13 were literal years.

    The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Do you mean they will be Muslim?

    If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

    Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

    --

    Even though Islam in its current form won't be the religion of the future Antichrist during his literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire. The Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire (Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it's one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

    Islam is an anti-gospel religion because even though it affirms Jesus is the Christ (Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75) it denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the Gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23) and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    The reason why it's necessary to believe these things to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during His Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

    Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

    Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

    One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says before Jesus' incarnation there was no time when He didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

    This isn't to suggest the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, again, because Islam falsely claims the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it's one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It's often claimed the Antichrist will be the Mahdi.

    During the Antichrist's rise to power, before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could indeed declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't Biblical, and so nothing requires they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

    Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in its total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria), and then he will mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:18-19). So the Muslims could say they were mistaken in thinking he was the Mahdi.

    Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if many Muslims had said he was the Mahdi, some of them could say they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa, a death sentence, being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against the Antichrist. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time the Antichrist declares himself God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it (at least one time) even within their own (future) temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) in Jerusalem, and he will defile that temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in every other religion's holiest shrine and declare himself God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist they will all attempt to assassinate him. But they will all fail to defeat him, for he won't be defeated until he's cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, Revelation 19:20).

    In Muslim prophecy, besides the Mahdi, there is indeed also "The Masih ad-Dajjal", or "The False Messiah", whom Muslims say will appear in the end times. While Bible prophecy shows there will be multiple false Messiahs, who will be able to perform amazing miracles (Matthew 24:24), Muslims could focus on one of these, a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Israel, as being "The Masih ad-Dajjal", after he declares himself to be the Messiah but then (with his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers) completely destroys the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple.

    It could be this destruction of the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, by a man whom the Muslims could declare to be "The Masih ad-Dajjal", which will give rise to the war in which another man, an Arab who could be the first man whom the Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi, will completely defeat and occupy Israel (Daniel 11:15-17).
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would not disagree with your premise that the man of sin could come from outside the Church, insofar as he came from the apostate church, which was outside of the true Church. And a review of the depravity of many of the popes suggests that indeed they never were true Christians to begin with. So that is a not unreasonable argument.

    With regard to historicity, Paul declared that the mystery of iniquity was already at work, and would be revealed when its restraint was removed (2 Thess. 2:7-8). Since the restraint was the imperial Roman empire, and its dissolution was essentially complete by 476 AD, that marked the beginning of the emergence of the papacy. There is nothing in Paul's declarations that suggests any significant delay between the dissolution of imperial Rome, and the beginning of the emergence of papal Rome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The ten horns/kings/kingdoms which emerged from the dissolution of imperial Rome were the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons. Three of those kingdoms were "put down" by the papacy, symbolized by the little horn: the Heruli in 493 AD, the Vandals in 534 AD, and the Ostrogoths in 538 AD. The papacy unfolded over centuries, but its formal establishment can be traced to 538 AD with the decree of Justinian which transferred power to papal Rome. Following was a period of 1260 years to 1798 AD, when General Berthier of Napoleon's troops entered Rome and took Pope Pius VI prisoner, ending the era and the events prophesied by Daniel and Paul.
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    2 Thessalonians 2:7a means the restrainer of the future Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2:6a wasn't (just as he still isn't) restraining the spiritual aspect of the antichrist deception. For the spiritual aspect was already at work in the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7a; 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Instead, the restrainer was (just as he still is) restraining only the Antichrist himself ("that man of sin") from coming physically and sitting in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4, Daniel 11:36,31), and being given physical power (by Satan, the dragon) over the whole earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7).

    That was because any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

    The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

    Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

    The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the Bible by the Church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

    The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding "would be revealed", 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the Second Coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note papal Rome never fulfilled the Biblical prophecies regarding the future Antichrist.

    For example, papal Rome never fulfilled the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), which could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

    Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

    In Revelation 13:15 the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

    But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

    The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

    And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

    And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

    Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

    The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

    Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

    Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

    Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

    This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He's So Great!"

    For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

    Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

    "Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

    Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.


    "Futurism fantasizes; history realizes."
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The papacy did not begin to emerge identifiably until the 4th century, and was not formally inaugurated until 538 AD by Justinian. This was of course future to Irenaeus' commentaries.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The papacy matches prophetic descriptions in Daniel 7:8,21,24,25, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7, John's epistles which describe antichrist, and Revelation 13 descriptions matching those in Daniel 7.
     
  12. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

    +309
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    the restrainer is the byzantine empire
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,178
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    The Byzantine empire was the eastern empire after the division. It continued for another 1000 years. The western empire fell in 476 AD, fragmenting into the ten kingdoms of Daniel 7, and paving the way for the emergence of the papacy. The restrainer was the western empire while it existed.
     
  14. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    and it chained the two beasts -
    the beast that was, was not, and was to come
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding Daniel 7:25, where it says the Antichrist will "change times" it isn't referring to a pope changing the time of the sabbath, but to the future Antichrist, who could radically change the calendar to where he will even get rid of the 7-day week, with its connotation to YHWH God and His 7-day creation of the world (Genesis 2:2). For the future Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

    The Antichrist could do what the atheists of the French Revolution did: Change the calendar to one consisting of 10-day weeks. Then he could say every month will consist of three of these 10-day weeks, so a year will consist of 12 months of 30 days each. But because this will make a year only 360 days, he could add a 5 or 6-day holiday period at the end of the year.

    Like they did in the French Revolution, the Antichrist could also change the names of the 12 months to whatever pleases him. And he could change the names of his 10 days of the week to whatever pleases him.

    The Antichrist's changing of "times" could even extend to the hour, minute and second. For he could replace the 60-second minute with a 10-second "new minute", and the 60-minute hour with a 10-new-minute "new hour", so the decimal-based metric system will finally be extended to time-keeping.

    But because a new, 100-second new-hour would mean there would be 864 new-hours in a day, the Antichrist could change the length of the second to a "new-second" consisting of about 86.4 of our current seconds, so there will be exactly 10 new-hours in every day. Times shorter than the new-second will be metric: the deci-new-second, the centi-new-second (about .864 the length of our current second), the milli-new-second, etc.

    So the Antichrist's "changing of times" could seem pretty neat to the world (and to metric-system-loving scientists): 10 days in a week, 10 hours in a day, 10 minutes in an hour, and 10 seconds in a minute.

    This could be sold to the world as part of a "New World Order", as a way of "finally shedding all the archaic time-keeping conventions, and replacing them with a modern and scientific system of time-keeping in line with the metric system of weights and measures, which has already proven to be such a boon to mankind".
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7, note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

    Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the Church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the future Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

    Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

    But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding Revelation 13, note that just as the papacy never fulfilled the "mark of the beast" or the "image of the beast", so no pope ever fulfilled the "number of the beast" part of Revelation 13.

    For the 666 in Revelation 13:17c-18 refers to the number six hundred and sixty-six, the "number of the name" of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). And the number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: The first nine letters are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way the gematrial numerical values of the three Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

    The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the three obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

    Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). The apostle John used the Greek alphabet because it was the most common one used by Christians when the book of Revelation was written. Today, the English alphabet is the most common one used by Christians, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the future Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet. The purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for Christians, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all Christians today wouldn't know how to properly perform this transliteration, and so different Christians would come up with different transliterations, and so would come up with different gematrial numbers for the name of the man in question.

    If Christians think someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist. If it does, then he could be, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence or amazing deeds he might display. But even if someone's name does add up to 666, this doesn't mean he's definitely the Antichrist. For just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

    But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure he's the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any more room for doubt over whether or not he's the Antichrist. His identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

    The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, F=6, G=7, H=8, I=9, J=10, K=20, L=30, M=40, N=50, O=60, P=70, Q=80, R=90, S=100, T=200, U=300, V=400, W=500, X=600, Y=700, Z=800. The way the gematrial number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), is added up, is simply by adding up the gematrial numerical values of all the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because: J=10, O=60, H=8, N=50, M=40, A=1, R=90, K=20, S=100, M=40, I=9, T=200, H=8. Total = 636. The future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
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    Regarding "was, was not, and was to come", are you thinking of:

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    If so, note that the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent seven different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, eighth head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the five empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

    Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

    The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

    Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

    Regarding "it chained the two beasts", are you thinking of:

    Revelation 20:1 ¶And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Some people tie Revelation 20:3's "cast him into the bottomless pit", with regard to Satan himself, with Revelation 17:8's "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit", with regard to the beast.

    But Revelation 17:8 doesn't have to refer to Satan himself ascending out of the bottomless pit, but one of his fallen angels.

    That is, one aspect of Revelation's beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 to spiritually empower the empire of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a third aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

    The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of four other powerful fallen angels now bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. The binding of a stone to a scroll (written down by the prophet Jeremiah) about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64) could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the four powerful fallen angels and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.

    When these four fallen angels are released at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,178
    Non-Denom
    Re. posts 95-97.

    Can you cite one Reformer who would agree?

    "Futurism fantasizes; history realizes."
     
  20. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    The `little horn` is a Political leader and thus not the false prophet, (or the pope). Now we know that this leader is also called the king of the North, (of Israel - Syria, Iraq and Jordan, the old Assyrian area). he eventually goes to the `glorious land,` Israel (Dan. 11: 41) and there he will `intend to change times and law.`

    The word times in Hebrew is `zamar,` meaning an appointed time. This refers to the Jews most holy day, the Day of Atonement, for national mourning and repentance.

    This person will set himself up in the sanctuary instead of the usual sacrifice.

    `...the son of perdition who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.` (2 Thess. 2: 3 & 4)

    regards, Marilyn.
     
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