What Happens to us after we die?

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The explanation describing the spirit/soul is clearly delineated in my post #13. Where it is described as an integral duo that can only be separated by God, as recorded in Heb.4:12. That also explains why I placed the two together with a splice in between.

Quasar92
Hebrews 4:12 says:
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So this verse says you can divide soul and spirit, which I of course agree with. Since a soul is a living creature and the spirit is the breath of life, so when the breath of life leaves a living creature the two are separated and the creature dies. I fail to see how this supports your position that we live on as spirits when we die.

Secondly, when you put two words together with a slash in between it typically means you believe the two words to be interchangeable, so no Hebrews 4:12 does not explain why you did that. It seems more likely that you don't understand the difference between a soul and a spirit.

Third, you still have not provided an explanation for your definition of a soul being someone's personality.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not ignoring any scripture and the ones you posted do not prove it to be wrong at all. On the other hand to deny that we actually die upon death is definitely ignoring plain scripture.

Like these for example:

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Can you explain these? And can you explain the purpose of the resurrection if we are already living in heaven? And can you explain the purpose of the transformation if we are already spirits?

How about these?

Psalms 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Can you also explain why Jesus described Lazarus' death as sleep? If, according to you, he was actually in heaven, why was there no mention of that in scripture?

And what about these examples?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect?

It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

That is clear scripture that you have to ignore to believe we live on as spirits after death. In fact you would even have to ignore or change the meaning of the word "death" because if we live on as spirits then we don't actually die at all, do we? And if that's the case then that means Jesus didn't really die either, did he? And If Jesus did not die then as Paul would say "our faith is in vain".

That's some pretty important scripture that you have to ignore in order to believe what you're claiming.

The body does sleep in the earth when we die, so those Old Testament verses which make reference to that are correct.

However, if we are only made up of a body, then how does the Holy Spirit come to dwell inside of us after we come to faith in Christ?


1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 
1Co 3:17  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


Every person that is alive is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

What you are claiming does not line up with what is written in the New
Testament.
 


.
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Quasar, I'd still like you to answer this question which I posed earlier: "Do you believe that you will have consciousness when you die?"


I gave you my explanation in post 13. The answer to the isswue of consciousness after death can be reviewed in Lk.16:19-31; Rev.6:9-13 and in Rev.7:9-17.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The body does sleep in the earth when we die, so those Old Testament verses which make reference to that are correct.

However, if we are only made up of a body, then how does the Holy Spirit come to dwell inside of us after we come to faith in Christ?


1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 
1Co 3:17  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


Every person that is alive is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

What you are claiming does not line up with what is written in the New
Testament.

.

How does the holy spirit dwelling in us prove that we are spirits inside of bodies?
 
Upvote 0

Dave Watchman

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2014
1,420
603
✟67,573.00
Faith
Christian
The spirit/soul is an integral duo that only God can separate as recorded in Heb.4:12. The soul is the character, personality and everything else that make each one of us a one of a kind individual, our personal ID, whether in the natural human body, or the spiritual body, that is the body for the soul, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:44. The spirit/soul leaves the mortal body when it dies, as recorded in Lk.16:19-25; Rev.6:9 and 7:9-17, as well as in 2 Cor.5:6-8 and Ecc.12:7.Quasar82

I'm sorry Quasar, I don't think you've got this one figured out yet. You can post all these verses, but they don't show me anything. This feels a lot like the rapture subject. You say the spirit/soul leaves the mortal body when it dies. But that can not be correct. The spirit is from God, it is not who we are. The spirit is from God, and the spirit returns TO God when we die. The soul can't leave the mortal body, that is impossible. The soul IS the mortal body. The soul that sins, IT shall die. The soul can DIE.

What the Big Dog said here is right, he took the words right out of my mouth.

I don't like the term "soul sleep" because it doesn't accurately describe what I believe. I don't believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that we cease to be souls when we die, because when our bodies received the breath of life (spirit) we became souls as it says in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That words used for "living soul" is "Nephesh" and that same word is used to describe all living creatures, as in Genesis 1:20.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

L7:
I don't like the term "soul sleep" because it doesn't accurately describe what I believe. I don't believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that we cease to be souls when we die, because when our bodies received the breath of life (spirit) we became souls as it says in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That words used for "living soul" is "Nephesh" and that same word is used to describe all living creatures, as in Genesis 1:20.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.​

After reading the material in L7's note, can you understand how the soul that sineth, it shall die?

I don't think this is that big of an issue to argue about, nobody will fall through the Lord's Righteous Right Hand.

You listed Rev.6:9 in your repertoire of proof texts. I'll take a stab at that one in the interest of time. I have a knack for understanding the prophetic time periods.

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God under the altar and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to REST a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Beautiful scene, souls beneath the alter in Heaven's Temple. Or so we assume. But if God breathed into the man's nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul, how could living souls make their way beneath the alter in Heaven's Temple? The answer is that they did not. Not anymore so than Abel's blood cried out to the Lord from the ground.

In the earthly Temple there was a container to collect all the blood from the sacrifices at the alter of burnt offerings. That container was kept UNDER the alter. The earthly Temple was a copy of the real one in Heaven. So that's why the reference to the souls being UNDER the alter. But are they really all there in person, and will they really cry out in an audible voice at the 5th seal?

"And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.

If you believe that Abel's blood really did open it's mouth and cry out from the ground, then you can also believe that the souls of the dead can cry out from under the alter.

The voice of your brother’s blood crying out from the ground, is the same thing as the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God crying out from under the alter. This is a figure of speech, a literary technique called a personification. This is where an inanimate object is given the attributes or characteristics of a living person.

Real blood can't cry out from the ground, and the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God under the altar can not cry out in a literal and audible voice. This is just a very poetic method of mentioning the two groups of saints that will occupy two different prophetic time periods as martyrs. God has not forgotten the first group, their memory is crying out just as Abel's blood cried out from the ground.

The 5th seal message really is for the second group of saints that is before us now. While the first group must still "REST" a little longer.

"But go your way till the end. And you shall REST and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

Dave Watchman "56"​

:)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LastSeven
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How does the holy spirit dwelling in us prove that we are spirits inside of bodies?

It proves that we can be made up of something more than a body.

Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If a jar has something inside of the jar, it is not just an empty jar...

Put a firefly in a jar and you will get the idea.
Put some holes in the lid so he can breath, just like we do.


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I gave you my explanation in post 13. The answer to the isswue of consciousness after death can be reviewed in Lk.16:19-31; Rev.6:9-13 and in Rev.7:9-17.


Quasar92
It was a simple yes or no question but after looking up the parables and symbolism you posted I'm guessing you believe that we have consciousness after death.

So that being the case then how do you respond to these verses? Are they wrong?

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It proves that we can be made up of something more than a body...

.
It proves that a spirit can dwell in us (whatever that means), but it does not prove that we are spirits.

And by the way, you haven't answered one of the first questions asked in this thread: If we are already immortal spirits living eternal life as soon as we die, then what's the point of the resurrection?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hebrews 4:12 says:
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So this verse says you can divide soul and spirit, which I of course agree with. Since a soul is a living creature and the spirit is the breath of life, so when the breath of life leaves a living creature the two are separated and the creature dies. I fail to see how this supports your position that we live on as spirits when we die.

Secondly, when you put two words together with a slash in between it typically means you believe the two words to be interchangeable, so no Hebrews 4:12 does not explain why you did that. It seems more likely that you don't understand the difference between a soul and a spirit.

Third, you still have not provided an explanation for your definition of a soul being someone's personality.


Do not attempt to put words in my mouth or how to teach. I said, the spirit/soul is an integral duo, that ONLY God can separate. Case closede.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

Friend-of-Jesus

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2017
647
474
54
Alberta
✟45,031.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We don't go to heaven when we die. We return to the dust of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:20

All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all will return.

"I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Quasar92
Upvote 0

Friend-of-Jesus

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2017
647
474
54
Alberta
✟45,031.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That "spirit" that returns to God is the breath of life.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that you will have consciousness when you die?

Yes, I believe that humans never lose their individual consciousness, even after death.

If you believe that humans cease to exist in any form after death, how is resurrection performed? God creates again same souls with old memories in new heavenly bodies or would they be completely new creatures?
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I believe that humans never lose their individual consciousness, even after death.
So if you think we will have a consciousness after death, then how do you reconcile this:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

If you believe that humans cease to exist in any form after death, how is resurrection performed? God creates again same souls with old memories in new heavenly bodies or would they be completely new creatures?

Paul explains how the resurrection is performed. Our bodies are revived and transformed into spiritual bodies.

1 Corinthians 15
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Your confusion stems from the fact that you don't know what a "soul" is. A soul is a living creature. When God's spirit (breath of life) enters a body, that body becomes a soul (living creature). When that creature dies, the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. Simple.
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do not attempt to put words in my mouth or how to teach. I said, the spirit/soul is an integral duo, that ONLY God can separate. Case closede.

Quasar92
Case closed? But you haven't addressed any of my points.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Is that supposed to refute the scripture I posted? Do you deny that we return to dust?
 
Upvote 0

Mynamechef

Member
Jun 23, 2017
10
7
26
Wa
✟17,544.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't like the term "soul sleep" because it doesn't accurately describe what I believe. I don't believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that we cease to be souls when we die, because when our bodies received the breath of life (spirit) we became souls as it says in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That words used for "living soul" is "Nephesh" and that same word is used to describe all living creatures, as in Genesis 1:20.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

When we die that breath of life leaves our bodies as in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

And don't tell me that's not scriptural because I just showed you the scriptures. I don't make up stuff in my own head. This is straight out of the scriptures, so this is about as scriptural as it gets.


This is something I've always been unsure about. Are you saying that (the scriptures say) that we die, go to dust, and when Jesus returns we are resurrected, and if we believed we go with him to heaven and if we don't we go to hell?
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is something I've always been unsure about. Are you saying that (the scriptures say) that we die, go to dust, and when Jesus returns we are resurrected, and if we believed we go with him to heaven and if we don't we go to hell?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying because that's what the scriptures say.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise. For one thing, judgment day is when God decides whether we live or die, so that decision can not be made as soon as we die. Then there's the whole resurrection thing. If we're already immortal spirits then there would be no point in being resurrected.

Then you've got all the old testament saints being told they will sleep or rest until resurrection day, and no references whatsoever to anybody going to heaven or being in heaven. This whole idea about people living in heaven is nice, but it's not scriptural.
 
Upvote 0

Friend-of-Jesus

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2017
647
474
54
Alberta
✟45,031.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is that supposed to refute the scripture I posted? Do you deny that we return to dust?

The bodies do return to dust. However, as Jesus said, people continue to live as distinct personalities (as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for example) even after death.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". He is not the God of the dead but of the living.


Yahwey is also the God of Jesus and of us. John 20:17.


Quasar92
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0