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Featured What Happens to us after we die?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Hebrews 4:12 says:
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    So this verse says you can divide soul and spirit, which I of course agree with. Since a soul is a living creature and the spirit is the breath of life, so when the breath of life leaves a living creature the two are separated and the creature dies. I fail to see how this supports your position that we live on as spirits when we die.

    Secondly, when you put two words together with a slash in between it typically means you believe the two words to be interchangeable, so no Hebrews 4:12 does not explain why you did that. It seems more likely that you don't understand the difference between a soul and a spirit.

    Third, you still have not provided an explanation for your definition of a soul being someone's personality.
     
  2. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Quasar, I'd still like you to answer this question which I posed earlier: "Do you believe that you will have consciousness when you die?"
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The body does sleep in the earth when we die, so those Old Testament verses which make reference to that are correct.

    However, if we are only made up of a body, then how does the Holy Spirit come to dwell inside of us after we come to faith in Christ?


    1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 
    1Co 3:17  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


    Every person that is alive is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

    What you are claiming does not line up with what is written in the New
    Testament.
     


    .
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I gave you my explanation in post 13. The answer to the isswue of consciousness after death can be reviewed in Lk.16:19-31; Rev.6:9-13 and in Rev.7:9-17.


    Quasar92
     
  5. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    How does the holy spirit dwelling in us prove that we are spirits inside of bodies?
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry Quasar, I don't think you've got this one figured out yet. You can post all these verses, but they don't show me anything. This feels a lot like the rapture subject. You say the spirit/soul leaves the mortal body when it dies. But that can not be correct. The spirit is from God, it is not who we are. The spirit is from God, and the spirit returns TO God when we die. The soul can't leave the mortal body, that is impossible. The soul IS the mortal body. The soul that sins, IT shall die. The soul can DIE.

    What the Big Dog said here is right, he took the words right out of my mouth.

    L7:
    I don't like the term "soul sleep" because it doesn't accurately describe what I believe. I don't believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that we cease to be souls when we die, because when our bodies received the breath of life (spirit) we became souls as it says in Genesis 2:7.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    That words used for "living soul" is "Nephesh" and that same word is used to describe all living creatures, as in Genesis 1:20.

    Genesis 1:20
    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.​

    After reading the material in L7's note, can you understand how the soul that sineth, it shall die?

    I don't think this is that big of an issue to argue about, nobody will fall through the Lord's Righteous Right Hand.

    You listed Rev.6:9 in your repertoire of proof texts. I'll take a stab at that one in the interest of time. I have a knack for understanding the prophetic time periods.

    "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God under the altar and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to REST a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

    Beautiful scene, souls beneath the alter in Heaven's Temple. Or so we assume. But if God breathed into the man's nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul, how could living souls make their way beneath the alter in Heaven's Temple? The answer is that they did not. Not anymore so than Abel's blood cried out to the Lord from the ground.

    In the earthly Temple there was a container to collect all the blood from the sacrifices at the alter of burnt offerings. That container was kept UNDER the alter. The earthly Temple was a copy of the real one in Heaven. So that's why the reference to the souls being UNDER the alter. But are they really all there in person, and will they really cry out in an audible voice at the 5th seal?

    "And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.

    If you believe that Abel's blood really did open it's mouth and cry out from the ground, then you can also believe that the souls of the dead can cry out from under the alter.

    The voice of your brother’s blood crying out from the ground, is the same thing as the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God crying out from under the alter. This is a figure of speech, a literary technique called a personification. This is where an inanimate object is given the attributes or characteristics of a living person.

    Real blood can't cry out from the ground, and the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God under the altar can not cry out in a literal and audible voice. This is just a very poetic method of mentioning the two groups of saints that will occupy two different prophetic time periods as martyrs. God has not forgotten the first group, their memory is crying out just as Abel's blood cried out from the ground.

    The 5th seal message really is for the second group of saints that is before us now. While the first group must still "REST" a little longer.

    "But go your way till the end. And you shall REST and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

    Dave Watchman "56"​

    :)
     
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  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It proves that we can be made up of something more than a body.

    Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    If a jar has something inside of the jar, it is not just an empty jar...

    Put a firefly in a jar and you will get the idea.
    Put some holes in the lid so he can breath, just like we do.


    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  8. LastSeven

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    It was a simple yes or no question but after looking up the parables and symbolism you posted I'm guessing you believe that we have consciousness after death.

    So that being the case then how do you respond to these verses? Are they wrong?

    Psalm 115:17
    The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psalm 146:4
    When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing
     
  9. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    It proves that a spirit can dwell in us (whatever that means), but it does not prove that we are spirits.

    And by the way, you haven't answered one of the first questions asked in this thread: If we are already immortal spirits living eternal life as soon as we die, then what's the point of the resurrection?
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    To be given eternal life we must believe. Those not believing perish -- Body and soul destroyed.
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do not attempt to put words in my mouth or how to teach. I said, the spirit/soul is an integral duo, that ONLY God can separate. Case closede.


    Quasar92
     
  12. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
     
  13. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I believe that humans never lose their individual consciousness, even after death.

    If you believe that humans cease to exist in any form after death, how is resurrection performed? God creates again same souls with old memories in new heavenly bodies or would they be completely new creatures?
     
  14. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    So if you think we will have a consciousness after death, then how do you reconcile this:

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

    Psalm 115:17
    The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

    Paul explains how the resurrection is performed. Our bodies are revived and transformed into spiritual bodies.

    1 Corinthians 15
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    Your confusion stems from the fact that you don't know what a "soul" is. A soul is a living creature. When God's spirit (breath of life) enters a body, that body becomes a soul (living creature). When that creature dies, the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. Simple.
     
  15. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Case closed? But you haven't addressed any of my points.
     
  16. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Is that supposed to refute the scripture I posted? Do you deny that we return to dust?
     
  17. Mynamechef

    Mynamechef New Member

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    This is something I've always been unsure about. Are you saying that (the scriptures say) that we die, go to dust, and when Jesus returns we are resurrected, and if we believed we go with him to heaven and if we don't we go to hell?
     
  18. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying because that's what the scriptures say.

    It wouldn't make sense otherwise. For one thing, judgment day is when God decides whether we live or die, so that decision can not be made as soon as we die. Then there's the whole resurrection thing. If we're already immortal spirits then there would be no point in being resurrected.

    Then you've got all the old testament saints being told they will sleep or rest until resurrection day, and no references whatsoever to anybody going to heaven or being in heaven. This whole idea about people living in heaven is nice, but it's not scriptural.
     
  19. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    The bodies do return to dust. However, as Jesus said, people continue to live as distinct personalities (as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for example) even after death.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yahwey is also the God of Jesus and of us. John 20:17.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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