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Featured What Happens to us after we die?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter what my "confusion stems from". I've asked you a question, and you didn't answer it. Do the resurrected bodies get the same soul (or a soul that contains the same old individuality and all of the memories), or is it a brand new creation? It's a simple question. One or the other? Or, perhaps, something else? I just want to understand your belief.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  2. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Jesus said that? Can you provide a scripture please.
     
  3. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Sorry but you are confused. A soul is not something we have, a soul is something that we are. A soul is literally a living creature, whether man or animal.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    So when we die, we cease to be souls. When we are resurrected we once again become souls.

    As for memories, I'm not 100% sure but based on this I'm thinking we will probably have no memories whatsoever of this old world.

    Isaiah 65

    17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

     
  4. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You know, You are so right. To the point, almost. But when the dead person is in heaven He or She can recognize His or Her relatives and remember His or Her near relatives on earth. One can also know that one is still needed on earth. That someone close is praying and is not letting go. Someone elses faith and prayers might be more mature than the dead persons whims and wishes to stay in heaven. When the human being can not breath anymore on earth and is on its way to let us say, heaven, the Spirit leaves the body and many have testified to seeing their body awhile before they where pulled upward to God. Their spirit is also having emotions and can think and relate. The talking to God is not always loud though, often it is as if one knows what God says or someone else says without them actually saying it out loud. God is light, a warm radiant light. You cannot see God and live they say, but Your spirit can see Him in rare occations I suppose if You are dead and not suppose to be dead for a long time. God does have a plan for our lives and You need to forgive Those people that have hurt You, that is very, very important and to show love. Loving God is obeying Him. That is not easy at all, it can be a constant inner struggle. He will make sure Your breath of life, Your Spirit, comes to the right place when You die. Fear not, God will take care of You, when You die, if You do His will when You live. But if You do want it Your own way without Jesus, then You should fear. Then Your eternity is not safe. You can not save Yourself from Your sins. Only Jesus can save You from Your sins. He is Your only hope. But He is a good Hope. God will pay the revenge You do not have to revenge Your enemies, Your enemy is the devil. You go ahead and obey God to the best of Your ability and when ability is not good enough You ask for a spare "battery" from God. Life on earth will not be easy, but with God You will not walk alone...and heaven is ahead as a place where there are no sorrows anymore.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  5. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Well, you can believe all the NDE stories you want, but I prefer to get my truth from the Bible.

    The rest of your post, I have no idea who that was meant for.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of believers, based in 1 Corinthians 3:16?

    Or do you throw out that verse to make the doctrine of "soul-sleep" work?
    Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    What is the point of the resurrection of the dead?

    Jesus had a body after His resurrection from the dead. He even ate with the disciples.

    We will have a body like His.

    Just as we see in the verse above, we are made up of both body and soul.
    They are to be reunited at the bodily resurrection of the dead described in John 5:27-30.


    .
     
  7. Friend-of-Jesus

    Friend-of-Jesus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for answering my question. Now I understand better how you beleive.

    I really don't see the need to insult each other, even if we believe different things. I respect people of any and all beleifs.
     
  8. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Of course I do, but as I said that in no way proves that we are spirits living inside of bodies.
    I don't have to throw out anything to make this "doctrine" work. It just works all by itself.

    You on the other hand seem to be throwing out all the verses that tell us the dead know nothing, and that we sleep in the dust when we die, and that we sleep with our fathers and that we rest until the resurrection.

    Not to mention the very definition of the word translated as spirit, which means "breath of life", and the conundrum you'll have if you're an immortal living spirit being resurrected as an immortal living spirit, having been judged righteous long before judgment day.

    Feel free to explain how your doctrine fits into those facts of scripture.
     
  9. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    You're absolutely right. It can get a bit heated in here sometimes. ;)
     
  10. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Yes, Jesus had a body after his resurrection but it was a spiritual body was it not? He was able to move through doors, but according to your doctrine he would've already been able to do so even before his resurrection because you believe he lived on in spirit form after his body died. So, if we use your scenario as an example, how was his post-resurrection body any better than his pre-resurrection spiritual form? In other words, if we were resurrected just as he was, what would we gain by it?

    Look carefully are your own example. It doesn't actually say anything about a reunification with a body. In fact, it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture.

    John 5:28
    Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out.

    It says that people are in their graves. If, as you say, they are actually spirits living in heaven right now, why does it not say that these people are in heaven and will be reunited with their bodies? Because the Bible tells the truth. These people are in their graves, not in heaven. In fact, every single reference to people being dead refers to them as being in their graves or in the dust of the ground. There's not a single reference to dead people actually living in heaven.

    And why is it that every single reference to the kings dying in the books of kings 1 and 2 makes a reference to sleeping, and sleeping with ancestors no less? Do people go to heaven to sleep? Or are they actually sleeping in the dust of the ground as scripture tells us over and over again?

    1 Kings 2:10
    So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 11:21
    And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept withhis fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 11:43
    And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 14:20
    And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 14:31
    And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 15:8
    And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in hisstead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 15:24
    And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 16:6
    So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 16:28
    So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 22:40
    So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    1 Kings 22:50
    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 8:24
    And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried withhis fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 10:35
    And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 13:9
    And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 13:13
    And Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat upon his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria withthe kings of Israel.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 14:16
    And Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 14:22
    He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 14:29
    And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel; and Zachariah his son reigned in hisstead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 15:7
    So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham hisson reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 15:22
    And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 15:38
    And Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 16:20
    And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 20:21
    And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 21:18
    And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Kings 24:6
    So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  11. Grandpa2390

    Grandpa2390 The Grey

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    You're spirit returns to God
     
  12. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Yes, but your "spirit" is the breath of life. It's not some wispy ghostly thing with a consciousness. It's just simply "life". The original Hebrew word for "spirit" is Ruach and it means breath or wind.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

    Genesis 7:15
    Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

    Psalm 104:29
    When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

    When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

    Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

    John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

    Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
     
  13. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    This is also why Paul referred to our resurrected bodies (which we will receive on resurrection day) as "life giving spirits" in 1 Corinthians 15:45, because the spirit is life. And on that day we will literally be life.
     
  14. Grandpa2390

    Grandpa2390 The Grey

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    yes I know that. In the hebrew and the greek and Aramaic. The words for Heaven mean sky/space. what's up. These two facts make for very interesting interpretations.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If we see a firefly in a jar, we would have to conclude that there was a unification between the firefly and the jar at some point in time.


    Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14

    (CJB)  do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

    (ESV)  For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

    (Geneva)  For if we beleeue that Iesus is dead, and is risen, euen so them which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.

    (GW)  We believe that Jesus died and came back to life. We also believe that, through Jesus, God will bring back those who have died. They will come back with Jesus.

    (LITV-TSP)  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

    (KJV)  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    (KJV+)  ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846


    (NKJV)  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    (YLT)  for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

    1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Rev_6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


    Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 

    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  16. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    If the firefly is in the jar then there was a unification, sure. And if the holy spirit lives in you, then there was a unification as well, but the Holy Spirit is God's spirit, not our own. So once again, none of this proves that we are immortal spirits living inside of bodies.

    Notice all your examples about Jesus dying. They all say that Jesus died. Now if Jesus was actually an immortal spirit living inside a body, and that spirit left that body, then he didn't actually die, which would make all those verses false.

    Now the scriptures never tell us that Jesus' body died. No, it says Jesus died. Which means "Jesus" is that which died, and if only his body died then that would have to mean that the body is Jesus, but you're saying the person is the spirit, which never dies. See the conundrum? Is Jesus a body, or a spirit?

    Genesis tells us that we were formed from the dust, not from spirit. Which mean we are dust not spirit. In fact Genesis says it plainly in Genesis 3:19. for dust you are... How then can you continue to claim that we are spirit? You're literally contradicting scripture.
     
  17. Mynamechef

    Mynamechef New Member

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    Yeah right, it does make a lot of sense. One other thing though, and I'd like to hear what you think, for people who go to hell, is it everlasting, as it says:

    Revelation 21:5
    "He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.

    So in making everything new with new heavens and earth, is hell going to be destroyed? And aren't people supposed to suffer for the sins they have done (that haven't been given to Jesus) so a serial rapist would suffer more than an atheist charity worker? Is that how that works sort of thing? Or is hell going to properly be eternal and everyone will burn there without end? It seems a little too brutal idk
     
  18. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Jesus will take with him to heaven, not from heaven, those who sleep. Notice by the way that these people sleep. Do you believe people in heaven are asleep? If you believe people are under the altar crying out, then clearly you don't believe they are asleep, so then how can this verse be talking about people in heaven?

    All of these examples use the word psuche for soul, which has multiple potential meanings.

    psuche (soul): (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

    The word for spirit is pneuma (spirit): wind, breath, spirit.

    In the first example Jesus is saying your life can be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire. This is significant because all will be resurrected, both righteous and wicked. Which means none of our deaths are permanent as God will once again give us the breath of life, but once you get thrown into the lake of fire, your breath is permanently destroyed.

    In the second example the real meaning of the author we can only guess at because the word psuche has so many potentital meanings. Both words (psuche and pneuma) could mean breath, but clearly since they are used independently they have different meanings. In neither case however do these nebulous verses prove we are spirits living inside of bodies, especially in light of all the other very clear verses that tell us we are simply bodies made of dust.

    "your whole spirit and soul and body" could just as easily be read as "your whole breath, individuality and body".

    Clearly symbolic. You don't really think people are crammed under an altar in heaven, do you? That doesn't sound very comfortable.

    And again, the word "soul" used here as well as in your next example is the Greek word psuche which means life or individual.

    Again, obvious symbolism. John saw representations of the people who had been slain.
     
  19. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    This seems a little off topic, and I'm not sure I have the answer for you but these are my thoughts.

    First of all, hell is a modern term which stems from the Hebrew word "sheol". Sheol means death, or "the grave" but it's not a physical place that one goes to, rather it's a state of being. One "goes" to sheol in the same way that one "goes" to sleep.

    Case in point, the Hebrews believe that everyone who dies goes to Sheol whether righteous or wicked, but the King James version translates sheol as "hell" when it speaks of the wicked dying, and "the grave" when it speaks of the righteous dying. In other words it translates the same word two very different ways, which is suspect to say the least.

    Gehenna and Hades are also said to be root words for "hell". Gehenna was a physical place (the Valley of the son of Hinnom) where people were sacrificed by fire for Molech. Hades is a Greek word which means "hidden" or "unseen" so it was often used to describe the realm of the dead, but is not actually considered a place of torture.

    In other words, all of these words and concepts were combined to come up with the concept of an eternal place where God punishes people with fire. I don't believe this to be true at all.

    The closest scripture actually comes to this concept is the lake of fire into which the wicked are thrown but I believe this to be symbolic for permanent death because as you pointed out the scriptures say that heaven and earth are renewed but doesn't say anything about the lake of fire or "hell". It does however say that God makes all things new, which logically would include the lake of fire if such a place existed.

    Therefore I don't believe the lake of fire is actually a place that exists. I believe it is simply the absence of God, and since God is life it is the absence of life, in other words death.
     
  20. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said that spirits have no body .
     
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