On Free Will

[Greg Merrill]

Maybe someone needs to come up with a "Once Spirtual Always Spiritual" doctrine asserting that we can all live forever free of the effects of the natural man!

This will be true once we leave the old nature behind either through death or when corruption buts on incorruption, 1 Corinthians 15:53.

 

[friend of]

Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

Well played... lol

No, the natural state of man is reprobate.

There's still more to it though. I don't think this settles everything.

 

[Hammster]

Interesting and I appreciate the explanation. I know there are some things that people either can't or have great difficulty believing simply by their free will, but would you say there is nothing a person can believe simply be their free will? I am honestly interested in knowing if that would really be true or not, but presently think many things can be believed simply by free will.

Okay, let's try this. Obviously you are a believer in Christ. Can you stop believing simply by your own choice?

Or, a more worldly example. Some folks like liver. Some folks hate it. Can they choose to switch their tastes simply by choosing to do so?

 

[TheSeabass]

How about can a person who is not saved (the unregenerate) please God?

Those in Acts 2 were lost natural men. They heard and believed what Peter preached to them and pleased God by choosing obeying those words.

 

[Hammster]

But who believes that? That is just simple Pelagianism is it not?

Well, yes. And there are those who, while probably not actual Pelagians, still hold to that thought process.

 

[Hammster]

Those in Acts 2 were lost natural men. They heard and believed what Peter preached to them and pleased God by choosing obeying those words.

What in the text supports that conclusion?

 

[disciple1]

I really can't see how this addressed the OP.

Yes people born of God can please God, even if they don't live to the pattern of what the pastors teach, as I showed you in that post, just because you show up in church and give to the church, doesn't mean your pleasing to God.

can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

I see some people doing this who don't know church or have been driven away by hypocrites.

 

[Hammster]

Yes people born of God can please God, even if they don't live to the pattern of what the pastors teach, as I showed you in that post, just because you show up in church and give to the church, doesn't mean your pleasing to God.

Okay. But the OP isn't about whether saved folks do things that don't please God.

 

[TheSeabass]

What in the text supports that conclusion?

--Both texts show they were preached God's inspired word..
--they heard/understood what was preached ...
--those in Acts 2 chose to obey verse 38 while those in Acts 7 chose not to believe (Acts 7:54)

Nothing in either text says they were totally depraved natural men unable to understand the inspired word as preached to them therefore they had to first be 'regenerated' before they could understand and choose to believe.

 

[rockytopva]

Get the picture! I can imagine the Apostle Paul ministering to a city and a great revival occurring as a result. And then, as he was leaving that city, the spiritual goods departing that city leaving it in a state of carnality.

The Apostle Peter saw this too...

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3

They went from spiritual to natural! In which Paul also grieves...

Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:28

 

[Hammster]

--Both texts show they were preached God's inspired word..
--they heard/understood what was preached ...
--those in Acts 2 chose to obey verse 38 while those in Acts 7 chose not to believe (Acts 7:54)

Nothing in either text says they were totally depraved natural men unable to understand the inspired word as preached to them therefore they had to first be 'regenerated' before they could understand and choose to believe.

Does it say anything about their state? Or are you just assuming your conclusion based on your theology?

 

[Hammster]

Get the picture! I can imagine the Apostle Paul ministering to a city and a great revival occurring as a result. And then, as he was leaving that city, the spiritual goods departing that city leaving it in a state of carnality.

The Apostle Peter saw this too...

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3

They went from spiritual to natural! In which Paul also grieves...

Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:28

I'm sure this would be a great discussion. You should start a thread on it.

Back to the OP...

 

[PeaceB]

How about can a person who is not saved (the unregenerate) please God?

I do not think that he can. Man can do nothing to merit his initial conversion to a state of grace.

 

[disciple1]

Okay. But the OP isn't about whether saved folks do things that don't please God.

There are people who are gay, and born of god according to this verse.
1 John chapter 4 verse 7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
You awful picky about what you accept.

 

[Hammster]

There are people who are gay, and born of god according to this verse.
1 John chapter 4 verse 7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
You awful picky about what you accept.

I'm just trying to keep on topic. You are going all over the place.

 

[disciple1]

You are going all over the place

I'm just trying to keep on topic. You are going all over the place.

Most people do.

 

[Hammster]

Most people do.

Not in my threads.

 

[TheSeabass]

Does it say anything about their state? Or are you just assuming your conclusion based on your theology?

It is assumption they were totally depraved therefore God had to 'regenerate' them for this idea is NOT in the context at all.

 

[Hammster]

It is assumption they were totally depraved therefore God had to 'regenerate' them for this idea is NOT in the context at all.

I know it's not. I'm not making that argument. Now, is your conclusion supported by the text in any way?

 

[Greg Merrill]

Okay, let's try this. Obviously you are a believer in Christ. Can you stop believing simply by your own choice?

Or, a more worldly example. Some folks like liver. Some folks hate it. Can they choose to switch their tastes simply by choosing to do so?

Your answer is good, but is it "best". "Good, better, best; let's never rest, until our good is better, and our better is best, and that's for the LORD." Your answer is good but is it all inclusive, or exhaustive? If we can cite one example of being able to believe, simply by free will, then it is not. In Genesis 15:6 we find that Abraham believed God. Didn't he have free will to not believe God, but exercised free will to believe God? It says in Acts 27:25 that Paul believed God? Didn't he have free will to not believe God, but exercised free will to believe God? By what do people believe in Aliens from outer space, and such things that have no evidence, if not by free will?