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On Free Will

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Jul 1, 2017.

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  1. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    No. People die in sin because they fail to know The Father and the purpose and plan...in revealing the Son and what we become when IN Christ...people who do not become blind in order that they might "see" that plan and purpose God had before the foundation of the world were laid...and it all goes back to Adam in the garden...One became two, now two become ONE in Christ/The Door (back).

    John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
     
  2. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    So YOU think infants are sinners and lost due to not being able to have faith?
    Yet where does GOD consider infants lost due not being able to have faith?

    --Again, repentance and baptism for remission of sins are part of faith.
    --Yet infants are not born with any sins to repent of or to have remitted.
    --Therefore faith is not a requirement for infants.

    Your position makes God look illogical in requiring something from infants (repentance and remission of sins) for sins they do not have. You are requiring something from infants God does not.
     
  3. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    People are lost due to their sins, not because they did not hear the gospel and have faith.

    Yet infants have no sins. Yet you say they will be lost for not hearing the gospel even though they are sinless?
     
  4. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    I think that would have to found in hearing and believing.
    John 9:41
    Jesus said to them,
    If you were blind you would not have sin;
    but now you say, We see, your sin remains.
     
  5. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    Until the age of understanding right from wrong for infants and children I can agree.

    There are many people who have good works, but still do not know (not just know about) God or His son. Adam lost something back in the garden to do with 'sight'/single of eye that he once walked in, with God in the Day. And since that day in the garden with the feast he ate prepared by the woman God gave him and the serpent showed up has been The Father wanting to reveal HIMSELF by waking us out of our slumber (that came upon the first Adam)...reconciled back, again. IN Christ/The Door (back).

    As scripture has said, because of the first Adam, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."


    Again, "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Yeh, it surely does, although estranged was my word.
     
  7. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how John 9:41 relates to infants and their being born without sin.

    Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Infants do not have the language skills or mental capacity to hear and thereby have faith and God knows this yet God still requires faith from infants. Is God this illogical in His thinking?
     
  8. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    No, the bible does not say this.
     
  9. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Paul explains this in Romans 1. Even though the Gentiles did not have God's law written down for them as the Jews, the Gentiles are still without excuse verses 19-21. God did not hide from man but made Himself known (His power & divinity) to man in His creation, even to those in remote areas of the world.


    "Have sinned" shows one personal activity, culpability in sinning and not to how one was passively born against his will. I still do not see how John 9:41 relates to infants.
     
  10. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    The first commandment from God, "Thou shalt not eat..." Isaiah 58 speaks to this "fast" that must be...which all narrows down to a Truth that began in the garden with the Adam. Jesus Christ is the First AND the Last Adam...Why do you suppose that would be??
     
  11. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Absolutely! Christians were chosen prior to creation. Not only not (yet) saved, but not even born yet.
     
  12. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    You have not provided one Scripture verse that teaches that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 applies only to mentally competent adults.

    You asked "Why would God require something of infants that God knows would be impossible for them?" but previously you asserted that adults who have never heard the gospel are lost due to their sin of unbelief. You have given absolutely no reason why infants get a pass for something that is impossible for them, but adults do not get a pass for something that is impossible for them.

    So why don't you tell me:
    1) How is an adult supposed to believe in something that has never been preached to him and that he has never had an opportunity to hear? It is impossible for him to believe in something he has no knowledge of or access to, is it not?
    2) Why would God require an adult to believe when God knows that would be impossible for him?
    3) Would that not also "make God out to be an ogre who desires [people who have never had a chance to hear the gospel] to be lost contrary to 1 Timothy 2:4."?

    It seems to me that you simply cannot give adults who have never heard the gospel (and are thus incapable of believing the gospel) the same treatment as you would give infants or the mentally incompetent (who are also incapable of believing the gospel), because to do so you would have to admit that such an adult, being free from original sin, choose good over evil his entire life, and enter heaven without need of the merits earned by Jesus's death on the cross. This is exactly where your theology leads when you follow it to it's logical conclusion, and this is why you are a Pelagian heretic, with all due respect.
     
  13. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Why preach the cross at all?
    If it is for a man to be chosen before he is born,what is the reason for it all?
    Why the tree of temptations? Or knowledge as we call it.
    Is God a puppet master pulling our strings knowing he will send us one place or another?
    Why do we need Satan's help to go to Hell,when God will send some anyway?
    This belief is like a rigged game at a carnival, or bad odds at a casino.
    One man ,many years ago decided that man is predestined without any will to change his destiny, and so many are deceived yet today.
    What is ironic is the elect could be surprised themselves,when Christ tells some depart from me I never knew you.
    After all they confessed their good works,surely they were chosen.
    The problem with sanctification by works is useless without Faith.
    Faith is a free will choice to believe or not,it is a adverb in the context of belief.
    It is a noun due to the results of having it.
    Have faith in God=adverb
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for=noun
    Both uses applied brings change,the ability of a person to bring change is of his own choice.
    I set before you life and death choose life.
    Go did not say I set before some of you life and some of you death roll the dice.
     
  14. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    We proclaim the gospel, firstly because God commanded us to. Secondly, because it is the *means* that God has prescribed (see Romans 10:14-15) No one knows who God's elect are, so we proclaim the gospel promiscuously to all, and His sheep will come (see John 10:27)

    The means that God uses is gospel preaching:

    How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” (Romans 10:14-15 ESV)
     
  15. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    No.

    Men will be in Hell because of their own sins. They will have no one to blame but themselves.

    "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already,. . ." (John 3:18)

    Not a game. All men deserve Hell. Surely you understand the all have sinned and rebelled against their Creator?

    God, in His mercy, has chosen some to show mercy on.

    This is not possible. "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    That wasn't spoken as an evangelistic message.

    A little contact helps: “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lordseems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
     
  16. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    "if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”
     
  17. mnorian

    mnorian Oldbie--Eternal Optimist Staff Member Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    upload_2017-7-11_7-3-34.jpeg
    Thread closed by OP request.
    Carry on.
     
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