Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[ToBeLoved]

No...you speak of your own understanding, and convince yourself with reason and even questions. But I have not come by what I have told you by men or by my own, but by God, whom took me up above the Earth and yes, outside the world, made Himself known to me.

Can you tell us what happened to you when God took you above the earth and made Himself known to you? I'm interested if you don't mind sharing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No...you speak of your own understanding, and convince yourself with reason and even questions. But I have not come by what I have told you by men or by my own, but by God, whom took me up above the Earth and yes, outside the world, made Himself known to me.

Many have died and claimed to see God and Heaven. Do you believe all of these accounts are true or Biblical? Are you claiming you had a major experience like others? If so, can you really say it lines up with God's Word?


...

 

[ScottA]

Can you tell us what happened to you when God took you above the earth and made Himself known to you? I'm interested if you don't mind sharing.

I was not "churched" or "indoctrinated" in any way, but after a series of events and a downward spiral over many years, I had lost everything. I was first a victim of crime, three consecutive break ins at my business put me out of business. The strain broke up my marriage, and I was separated from my children in a bitter divorce. One night, after trying every way I could to pick myself up and failing, realizing that I had arrived at a place where otherwise normal people take their life, I thought that if there was a God, I was ready to talk and just started into it - and He answered.

Instantly, I was taken up in what I now know to be an out of body experience or "in the spirit" experience. In my talking to God I had told Him that I would not take my life, that if He wanted it, He could take it, He could have it. I told him that I needed answers and a way to go, otherwise there was just one thing in life that had not failed me and all I had left was to go live in the woods. And the next thing I knew, I was in the air above the Earth overlooking the very spot that I had threatened to go.

Next, I found myself with my back up against a wall of ice with a sea of people before me as far as I could see, and they begain to stir with a great urgency. I turned to the wall of ice and began beating on it with my fists and pieces began to fall off revealing a massive door, which then opened up. Through the door was a narrow stairway leading up into the clouds. At the top, was my father.

Next, I was on the stairway about half the way up, and in through the doorway came babies, infants, wrapped in little white blankets. I took the first one and passed it up to my father, and then took another and did the same, over and over and over again. All of which was more real than anything I have ever experienced in life.

Then, as quickly as I had been taken up, I returned and was back in my body, and shot straight up, my feet running and landed in a sitting position at the foot of my bed. My mind reeled and I repeated over and over what had just happened - "A door was opened to me and I delivered children to my father in the sky."

Eventually I laid back down and drifted off to sleep. When I awoke I felt a peace I had never felt before...and everything in my life took a turn, everything changed. I had already lost my job, I split up with my girlfriend, and I moved. I temporarily stayed with my brother and his family, and in the room where they put me up was a bible. I was drawn to it, and began reading it and never put it down except to eat and sleep, and read it completely through like a novel. I did, because as I did, though I had never read a bible before, I kept coming to familiar parts, parts that I knew about from my experience - it was confirming my experience, and my experience confirmed it. When I got to the part about "My father in heaven" it all became clear.

Many have died and claimed to see God and Heaven. Do you believe all of these accounts are true or Biblical? Are you claiming you had a major experience like others? If so, can you really say it lines up with God's Word?


...

Without a doubt - as God is my witness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Without a doubt - as God is my witness.

First, the Bible says nobody can see GOD the Father and live. I believe the mind can experience dreams either waking or asleep or at death (that is from the influence of demons) because this world belongs to the wicked one. We have to be careful to what we experience versus what the Bible actually says or we can start to place our experience above what the Word says. Second, do you think your vision should be the next added chapter to Revelation for other Christians to study? Three, near death experiences are also experienced by people in other religions. So we have to be cautious. I know you prayed to GOD, but you agreed to the fact that all the other visions by people are true. But this cannot be the case because every other person's experience of Heaven and Hell or vision is slightly different (And when compared to God's Word - it does not line up). I think God directing you to read the Bible is when God came to you. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). I think the vision was a test to see where you would place your trust. Would your trust be in a vision or would it be in the Word of God?

As for your misunderstanding on the time issue: Why exactly do you think you cannot be deceived on the time issue based on this vision? Was there a part of your vision where you think you were timeless or you were traveling thru time? Is that why you think God exists in all points in time? While at first glance it is nice to think that GOD is outside linear time, it actually is a huge problem. For it makes GOD a slave to time whereby He has to constantly act over and over and over again (in doing the same thing) thru out all points in time. However, GOD is not a slave to time, though.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was not "churched" or "indoctrinated" in any way, but after a series of events and a downward spiral over many years, I had lost everything. I was first a victim of crime, three consecutive break ins at my business put me out of business. The strain broke up my marriage, and I was separated from my children in a bitter divorce. One night, after trying every way I could to pick myself up and failing, realizing that I had arrived at a place where otherwise normal people take their life, I thought that if there was a God, I was ready to talk and just started into it - and He answered.

Instantly, I was taken up in what I now know to be an out of body experience or "in the spirit" experience. In my talking to God I had told Him that I would not take my life, that if He wanted it, He could take it, He could have it. I told him that I needed answers and a way to go, otherwise there was just one thing in life that had not failed me and all I had left was to go live in the woods. And the next thing I knew, I was in the air above the Earth overlooking the very spot that I had threatened to go.

Next, I found myself with my back up against a wall of ice with a sea of people before me as far as I could see, and they begain to stir with a great urgency. I turned to the wall of ice and began beating on it with my fists and pieces began to fall off revealing a massive door, which then opened up. Through the door was a narrow stairway leading up into the clouds. At the top, was my father.

Next, I was on the stairway about half the way up, and in through the doorway came babies, infants, wrapped in little white blankets. I took the first one and passed it up to my father, and then took another and did the same, over and over and over again. All of which was more real than anything I have ever experienced in life.

Then, as quickly as I had been taken up, I returned and was back in my body, and shot straight up, my feet running and landed in a sitting position at the foot of my bed. My mind reeled and I repeated over and over what had just happened - "A door was opened to me and I delivered children to my father in the sky."

Eventually I laid back down and drifted off to sleep. When I awoke I felt a peace I had never felt before...and everything in my life took a turn, everything changed. I had already lost my job, I split up with my girlfriend, and I moved. I temporarily stayed with my brother and his family, and in the room where they put me up was a bible. I was drawn to it, and began reading it and never put it down except to eat and sleep, and read it completely through like a novel. I did, because as I did, though I had never read a bible before, I kept coming to familiar parts, parts that I knew about from my experience - it was confirming my experience, and my experience confirmed it. When I got to the part about "My father in heaven" it all became clear.
Without a doubt - as God is my witness.

Thank you for sharing it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Nobody knows Judas' fate but God. Trying to squeeze answers to whatever wonders we have from the bible, is like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nobody knows Judas' fate but God. Trying to squeeze answers to whatever wonders we have from the bible, is like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

I do agree with you in some respect, I really think God has spoken about Judas in a few verses and he is not that important in the big scheme of things. God called Him a son of perdition, thats good enough for me.

 

[ScottA]

First, the Bible says nobody can see GOD the Father and live. I believe the mind can experience dreams either waking or asleep or at death (that is from the influence of demons) because this world belongs to the wicked one. We have to be careful to what we experience versus what the Bible actually says or we can start to place our experience above what the Word says.

If that is what you believe, then you define much of the scriptures.

Second, do you think your vision should be the next added chapter to Revelation for other Christians to study?

I know exactly what chapter this is - and if you are going to ask questions, stop insisting that you know better. This is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as foretold by Joel the prophet.

Three, near death experiences are also experienced by people in other religions. So we have to be cautious. I know you prayed to GOD, but you agreed to the fact that all the other visions by people are true. But this cannot be the case because every other person's experience of Heaven and Hell or vision is slightly different (And when compared to God's Word - it does not line up). I think God directing you to read the Bible is when God came to you. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). I think the vision was a test to see where you would place your trust. Would your trust be in a vision or would it be in the Word of God?

We are told to test the spirits. I have done so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If that is what you believe, then you define much of the scriptures.
I know exactly what chapter this is - and if you are going to ask questions, stop insisting that you know better. This is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as foretold by Joel the prophet.
We are told to test the spirits. I have done so.

Let's just cut to the chase here. Do you believe a person can die in unrepentant sin like murder, hate, adultery, etc. and still be saved?

Do you believe a person can go from a saved state to an unsaved state? If not, then does God only choose those He knows will live holy and faithful to Him? Or does God force regenerate a person to live holy with no free will choice on their part anymore?

Do you believe Jesus Christ has come into the flesh? Meaning do you believe the eternal second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Living Word) has come into the flesh of Adam thru the virgin named Mary?

Side Note:

Oh, and if your view on God in relation to time is correct, then please explain how God would not be a slave to time (whereby He wouldn't be forced to keep re-enacting the same events thru out time over and over and over again - In order for God to live in both the past, present, and future at the same time).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nobody knows Judas' fate but God. Trying to squeeze answers to whatever wonders we have from the bible, is like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

This is not true. Besides just looking at the verses that tell us Judas was not saved when he died (like Matthew 26:24), John says in 1 John 3:15 that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Suicide is self murder. 1 Corinthians 3:17 also tell us that if any man defiles his temple (Which would obviously include killing it), then God will destroy us. For the ultimate destruction of the wicked is the Second Death and not the First Death.


...

 

[ScottA]

As for your misunderstanding on the time issue: Why exactly do you think you cannot be deceived on the time issue based on this vision? Was there a part of your vision where you think you were timeless or you were traveling thru time? Is that why you think God exists in all points in time? While at first glance it is nice to think that GOD is outside linear time, it actually is a huge problem. For it makes GOD a slave to time whereby He has to constantly act over and over and over again (in doing the same thing) thru out all points in time. However, GOD is not a slave to time, though.

I am like a fish out of water - the waters below...and having seen the waters above - this world becomes incidental by comparison. As such, I did not say "Ah ha!" at Einstein's comments of time being an illusion, but am humored and at the same time saddened to realize that we could be so removed from the actual reality of God.

Side Note:

Oh, and if your view on God in relation to time is correct, then please explain how God would not be a slave to time (whereby He wouldn't be forced to keep re-enacting the same events thru out time over and over and over again - In order for God to live in both the past, present, and future at the same time).
....

But I do not think God exists in all points of time...that is not what is meant by omnipresent. Omnipresent simply means that no place (or time) is off limits for God. Your "over and over" analogy is not accurate. No - God has written the book of these lives and times, and to Him, "It is finished" and was finished before it was ever revealed through the media of time to any of the characters. Living out our days is like us reading a book that was written well before we picked it up - just because we have not finished it...does not mean it is not finished. It was finished before the foundation of the world - and time is not a timeline, but a story line.

 

[ScottA]

Let's just cut to the chase here. Do you believe a person can die in unrepentant sin like murder, hate, adultery, etc. and still be saved?

Yes, this is the fate of much of Israel (the first Adam), for whom Christ died.

Do you believe a person can go from a saved state to an unsaved state? If not, then does God only choose those He knows will live holy and faithful to Him? Or does God force regenerate a person to live holy with no free will choice on their part anymore?

"I am" doesn't work that way. In the end, we are ("am") who we are. The only before and after that exists with the saved and the unsaved, is on either side of the apex of the cross.

God knows the end from the being. Moreover, it is finished before we ever spend even a day living out our time of decision. But time and the world existing on a timeline is a myth. Regeneration is us being who we are in what would appear to be a lifetime and yet occurs in the twinkling of an eye (God's). That is the extent of free will.

Do you believe Jesus Christ has come into the flesh? Meaning do you believe the eternal second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Living Word) has come into the flesh of Adam thru the virgin named Mary?

Yes. Moreover, He has come again, in spirit.

 

[Radrook]

From reading the scriptures it should be obvious that we don't lose our freedom of choice and become robots when we accept Jesus as our savior.

 

[Landon Caeli]

This is not true. Besides just looking at the verses that tell us Judas was not saved when he died (like Matthew 26:24), John says in 1 John 3:15 that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Suicide is self murder. 1 Corinthians 3:17 also tell us that if any man defiles his temple (Which would obviously include killing it), then God will destroy us. For the ultimate destruction of the wicked is the Second Death and not the First Death.


...

What if Judas had a change of heart right after he stepped off the platform, and hung there in regret, begging God to forgive him for what had just taken place -which he could not break free from?

...If his dying words were genuine repentance, would God not forgive him?

 

[Radrook]

What if Judas had a change of heart right after he stepped off the platform, and hung there in regret, begging God to forgive him for what he had just then done, in which he could not break free from?

...If his dying words were genuine repentance, would God not forgive him?

You mean before the branch broke and he ruptured his intestines on the jagged rocks below?

 

[miknik5]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

John 13:10 through John 13:11 say otherwise

 

[Landon Caeli]

You mean before the branch broke and he ruptured his intestines on the jagged rocks below?

Seriously though, what if?

Would God forgive him if he repented hanging there?

Who could know if he did or not?

 

[ewq1938]

Seriously though, what if?

Would God forgive him if he repented hanging there?

Then these verses are wrong:

Judas is condemned..............................Psalms 109:7
Judas is lost........................................John 17:12
Judas is the son of perdition.................John 17:12
Judas deserves no mercy......................Psalms 109:12

 

[Landon Caeli]

Then these verses are wrong:

Judas is condemned..............................Psalms 109:7
Judas is lost........................................John 17:12
Judas is the son of perdition.................John 17:12
Judas deserves no mercy......................Psalms 109:12

I may or may not have been taught wrong on this, and I'm open to correction, since the idea of Judas' repentance through UNOFFICIAL Catholic teachings stem directly from Origen, who was the first to suggest the idea in his writings. We can't take Origen Adamantius' word as truth since it does seem to conflict strangely with scripture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What if Judas had a change of heart right after he stepped off the platform, and hung there in regret, begging God to forgive him for what had just taken place -which he could not break free from?

...If his dying words were genuine repentance, would God not forgive him?

Yes, but that didn't happen. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.


...