Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

You need to lighten up on your condescending tone. I don't know how you can say that you do not sin when you are obviously not showing the fruit of the Spirit in your words. It is sin to not show love to your brethren and to berate them. So let's end the 'I do not sin' verbiage. To discuss one needs to listen as well as speak.

Also, it would be really helpful for all of us if you would break down these different concepts into single posts so that people can follow easily. It is very confusing to have this all as one huge post that no one can follow.

hello, I am not intending to be proud or as if i know it all. I answer some according to the leading of the Spirit as i see in the Lord. Some attack me with their condescending words and often those words fall back on them. I do repent if i have come off that way in any way. In person i am very peaceable and easy to be entreated. Sometimes others call me many things, devils heretic, false etc. I will often let that bounce off my armour in the Lord. But sometimes they need to be sharply rebuked and exhorted to stop the mouths of gainsayers. Sometimes we are dealing with false spirits and ministers of satan and we need to be discerning.

anyway I apologize if i come off as condescending. it is difficult when you try to teach others things and they will often think they are the teachers and some may be and it is very hard for some to eat the massive humble pie they are required to eat.

Imagine a man who has been so called pastor for 20 years and argued taught and rebuked others for not believing what he teaches and finally to come and see his error here . For him to repent and change his view in front of all those who come here is very very very difficult. It can happen, but they often don't go without a massive fight and intense scriptural twisting and they often do more damage to their character and ministry in doing so.

ok God bless

 

[LoveofTruth]

Since Jesus knew what Judas would do before he did it it is not betrayal in the sense that Jesus did not know what Judas would do from the beginning. What Judas and the devil meant for evil, God turned around into the greatest blessing of all.

Jesus still said he would betray him. That means that the trust he once had he went against. So if he was part of a plan doing some good to help out he would not be betraying Jesus.

and Yes I agree God can use any situation and make what appears to be evil for the good. But God never tempts or makes man do evil.

Judas , like Lucifer was once in the light of God and not condemned. This is very clear when you read the scriptures we are discussing. Jesus calling HIS disciples ( not the devils or not HIS 11 and one devil as some try to twist) and ordaining the 12. This means he chose and sent the 12 out with power from God and so they were in Christ as Jesus said in John 15. For without Jesus and he bing in them and they in him they can do nothing John 15;5.

 

[ToBeLoved]

hello, I am not intending to be proud or as if i know it all. I answer some according to the leading of the Spirit as i see in the Lord. Some attack me with their condescending words and often to=hose words fall back on them. I do repent if i have come off that way in any way. In person i am very peaceable and easy to be entreated. Sometimes others call me many things, devils heretic, false etc. I will often let that bounce off my armour in the Lord. But sometimes they need to be sharply rebuked and exhorted to stop the mouths of gainsayers. Sometimes we are dealing with false spirits and ministers of satan and we need to be discerning.

anyway I apologize if i come off as condescending. it is difficult when you try to teach others things and they will often think they are the teachers and some may be and it is very hard for some to eat the massive humble pie they are required to eat.

Imagine a man who has been so called pastor for 20 years and argued taught and rebuked others for not believing whet he teaches and finally to come and see his error here . For him to repent and change his view in front of all those who come here is very very very difficult. It can happen, but they often don't go without a massive fight and intense scriptural twisting and they often do more damage to their character and ministry in doing so.

ok God bless

How does that change anything? We are all called many things if we have anywhere near a considerable number of posts here on the forums. What I am showing you is that as much as you speak of not sinning, you are sinning in your posts by belittleing others.

If you want to talk the talk, then you should be able to walk the walk, otherwise people see right through it.

What are the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus still said he would betray him. That means that the trust he once had he went against. So if he was part of a plan doing some good to help out he would not be betraying Jesus.

and Yes I agree God can use any situation and make what appears to be evil for the good. But God never tempts or makes man do evil.

Judas , like Lucifer was once in the light of God and not condemned. This is very clear when you read the scriptures we are discussing. Jesus calling HIS disciples ( not the devils or not HIS 11 and one devil as some try to twist) and ordaining the 12. This means he chose and sent the 12 out with power from God and so they were in Christ as Jesus said in John 15. For without Jesus and he bing in them and they in him they can do nothing John 15;5.

Jesus knew Judas did not believe and would betray Him when He picked Him. Jesus cannot be fully God and not know the end from the beginning. To say Jesus did not know is to remove that He is fully God and to only give Him the attributes of a man.

Jesus said that "No one can take my life from me except that I lay it down". Jesus lay down His life in obedience to the Father. No one could have taken it from Him if He had not chose to lay it down.

Judas was doing evil throughout his time with Jesus, he was stealing money from the treasury and taking away from Jesus ministry. God did not tempt him to do that, it was his own greed and love of money that was his temptation and what he gave in to.

The other thing I think you are blowing way out of proportion is this idea that Jesus was constantly sending out the 12 disciples to do things. Jesus was not sending them out until after His death.

What are the SPECIFIC verses that show Jesus sending the 12 out before His death to do His bidding?

 

[LoveofTruth]

How does that change anything? We are all called many things if we have anywhere near a considerable number of posts here on the forums. What I am showing you is that as much as you speak of not sinning, you are sinning in your posts by belittleing others.

If you want to talk the talk, then you should be able to walk the walk, otherwise people see right through it.

What are the fruit of the Spirit?

Please show me where I did this and be specific quote the words I was responding to and my words.

In scripture we see Paul and jesus and John and others using very strong words to other, stronger than i have used. They called men dogs, children of the devil, liars deceivers, false apostles, deceitful workers, Hypocrites with great passion against them used a whip to whip them out of the temple etc

 

[ToBeLoved]

Judas , like Lucifer was once in the light of God and not condemned. This is very clear when you read the scriptures we are discussing. Jesus calling HIS disciples ( not the devils or not HIS 11 and one devil as some try to twist) and ordaining the 12. This means he chose and sent the 12 out with power from God and so they were in Christ as Jesus said in John 15. For without Jesus and he bing in them and they in him they can do nothing John 15;5.

Jesus explains about Judas. This idea that you have that Jesus chose Judas an ordained Him for good is not shown at all. What is shown is that Judas was chosen by Jesus knowing what would take place. That the will of God would triumph over evil in that one person's evil could not thwart God and His will.

The apostles took off in ministry after Jesus death. After Pentecost when they were given the Holy Spirit and made into a new creation through being crucified with Christ in His death and conquering of sin.

You are too heavily concentrating on what happened before Jesus death.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please show me where I did this and be specific quote the words I was responding to and my words.

In scripture we see Paul and jesus and John and others using very strong words to other, stronger than i have used. They called men dogs, children of the devil, liars deceivers, false apostles, deceitful workers, Hypocrites with great passion against them used a whip to whip them out of the temple etc

And the Apostles were setting the foundation of the churches. Paul was overseeing the new churches in Ephesus, Rome, Thessoloonica, Corinth, Phillipai, ect.

These churches needed the truth to be built upon the rock that is Jesus Christ.

What you are doing is condemning individual people because their understanding is not your own. They used strong words when it was needed to turn someone away from grave error, not to take pot shots at someone who doesn't agree with them. It was for the kingdom, not for themselves.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus knew Judas did not believe and would betray Him when He picked Him. Jesus cannot be fully God and not know the end from the beginning. To say Jesus did not know is to remove that He is fully God and to only give Him the attributes of a man.

I never said jesus didn't know everything, Jesus is God manifest in the Flesh, he knew all men.

Judas was doing evil throughout his time with Jesus, he was stealing money from the treasury and taking away from Jesus ministry.

Show me where Judas was stealing all through his life, The parts about him doing evil are near the end of jesus ministry after he had been with him for a while. You are assuming as many do that Judas was ALWAYS a thief which scripture does not say. To add to the text is unwise and dangerous.

The other thing I think you are blowing way out of proportion is this idea that Jesus was constantly sending out the 12 disciples to do things. Jesus was not sending them out until after His death.

This is clear in scripture,

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are ... and Judas Iscariot...5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:1-6.

This is not the same as the great commission after jesus rose again. Then he said go to all the world and to the gentile they were to go and samaritans as well. This was for the 12 to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This seems clear to me. I know some may fond trouble with this because if the text clearly says that Judas belonged to jesus and he sent all 12 ( Judas included) and gave all12 ( judas included power and sent them as sheep to the LOST sheep. Then Judas was obviously saved and the entire OSAS doctrine shatters. This is very hard for me to admit and change. Its as hard as a catholic realizing that the bread on the altar is not really God.

and

"14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
" (Mark 3:14,1`5 KJV) Notice this was for all 12 as the text clearly says. Some try hard to avoid this truth here and the consequence of it, but we cannot go beyond that which is written.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And the Apostles were setting the foundation of the churches. Paul was overseeing the new churches in Ephesus, Rome, Thessoloonica, Corinth, Phillipai, ect.

These churches needed the truth to be built upon the rock that is Jesus Christ.

What you are doing is condemning individual people because their understanding is not your own. They used strong words when it was needed to turn someone away from grave error, not to take pot shots at someone who doesn't agree with them. It was for the kingdom, not for themselves.

again show me any specific examples of this when i was doing this and we will look at the people i spoke to and the context and the reason for it.

Remember Jesus Paul and others were the sharpest to those who came off as teachers and who spoke heresy and mislead others with their doctrines of men. I also feel this zeal against those who come off as teachers and who mislead men. This is all justified in scripture and by the Lord in love and truth. Jesus said to laodicean whom he loves he rebukes and chastens. Jesus says to the laodicean church that they are wretched miserable poor blind and naked. Hard words to a church.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And the Apostles were setting the foundation of the churches. Paul was overseeing the new churches in Ephesus, Rome, Thessoloonica, Corinth, Phillipai, ect.

These churches needed the truth to be built upon the rock that is Jesus Christ.

even after the churches were founded the elders and body members who were to oversee were to still sharply rebuke gainsayers as we read in scripture. Where paul tells the overseers to do this when needed and to use sound doctrine to both exhort and convince the gainsayers.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You need to lighten up

To be light is not a ministers quality, as we read. This was a sign of the false prophets consider what you say here to me when you tell me to "lighten up". I walk in the Light of the lord as he leads and I am nothing God is all. My ministry here is not a game to me. This is very serious to me and I am very sober about it. I seek always to have a conscience void of offence here and to be sound in doctrine.

'Jeremiah 23:32
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord."

"
2 Corinthians 1:17
When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus explains about Judas. This idea that you have that Jesus chose Judas an ordained Him for good is not shown at all.

You are contrary to scripture which says,

'14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
" (Mark 3:14,1`5 KJV)

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are ... and Judas Iscariot...5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:1-6.

unless you say that preaching as sent by jesus and casting out devils and healing and helping the lost sheep is not GOOD at all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The apostles took off in ministry after Jesus death.

Contrary to the full scripture

"25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." ( Acts 1:25 KJV)

Judas had obtained part of the MINISTRY. And being send out to minister by Jesus to the lost sheep and given power to do so is part of the ministry.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God bless,

Thank you. May the Lord's love and goodness increase even more for you in your life.

...and yes there are many, many passages showing a person can be saved and lose it. They are so clear and powerful it takes a lot of scriptural twisting by the other side to avoid them.

I agree 100%. This is the second time that I have talked with a pastor after the service about Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). But I have debated against OSAS online for about 4-5 years now very intensely. I am very passionate about defending the goodness of our LORD according to His Word.

Within my posts at ChristianForums: Here is a general long list of verses here that refutes Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved; And here is a long list of verses that deals with falling away (Even though you are probably already very familar with these verses).

To me the angels that sinned and are an example to us in scripture as a warning show clearly the danger,

The quick objection on this one is that angels never had faith. But it is still a good point because it still shows that God does not condone any acts of evil within his creation (Regardless of whether they have faith or not). I like to try to mention Adam and Eve in my beginning defense of God's goodness. For Adam had a good relationship with God in the beginning and then he died spiritually (not physically) the day that he sinned (Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:8-24, 1 Corinthians 15:22); And the devil told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the tree (Genesis 3:2-4). This same lie of the devil is being pushed today. You will not die if you sin.

...and infant salvation that all one day old children were saved at that time they were born and if they died they would be with God, defeats many points of the Calvinistic view and also the child OCAS idea as well.

Yes, I agree. All babies who die go to Heaven. This means that we were once saved when we were babies and we later fell away due to our life of sin (Whereby we then need a spiritual re-birth by GOD). In fact, I see the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) as a picture of a person being saved as a baby and then becoming prodigal as a part of life in growing up in a sinful world, and then coming back home to the Father thru Jesus by their acceptance of Christ and repentance towards Him (i.e. Repentance: Meaning, a person who confesses and forsakes their sin - 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, and Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10).

And Judas is a good example of this as I have been trying to show from scripture. Many just avoid it as you said and others twist it to make the text say what it doesn't say. Traditions of men and doctrines of men do not go easily.

I agree. As I am sure you are aware of, even the 70 disciples once were said to have their names written in Heaven (Luke 10:17-20), but they then later stopped following Jesus (John 6:66). This shows that they were once were saved by following Jesus and then they chose to become unsaved in their refusal to follow Christ anymore. However, Peter refused to leave Christ because he said there was no other place for him to go because Jesus had the words of eternal life (John 6:67-68). In other words, for Peter, it was a matter of spiritual life or death.

Consider also Jeremiah 23 about the false prophets who promise peace to those who are in wickedness, and strengthen the hands of evil men. This is like some OSAS ideas that say you are still ok if you are in wickedness and unbelief.

I was unaware of this chapter. Wow. That is powerful. I read a little in the KJV and then re-read it in the NLT. Thank you brother for sharing that.

Consider also Hebrews 3:12-14 or so. This is unanswerable by the OSAS camp. I have never heard a good answer from their side on that section of scripture. It shows that we don't lose salvation by works but by unbelief in the heart. Sin hardens us and the danger of continuing in sin is to he hardened to the danger of unbelief. As the writer warns to believers, including himself in the chapter. There are so many other verses which would take all day to go through.

This is true; But I first like to tell others that Salvation is Jesus Christ or Relationship-ism. For eternal life can only be found in Christ (1 John 5:12). So if we abide in Christ, then the good fruit of Christ (and not bad fruit) will be evident in our lives. For there is none good but GOD; And Jesus is GOD. Salvation is not "Belief Alone-ism" and Salvation is not "Works Alone Salvation-ism."

I believe a person can be saved right now by repenting of their sins and accepting Christ (apart from works). For the thief on the cross was saved without works. But if a believer is to live out their faith, they have to continue in the LORD and His goodness, though.

For I see "belief" as eventually leading to proper action. For many of God's Commands call us to act. Our ability to act upon His Word in what He wants us to do takes faith. Just as Abraham acted in faith to sacrifice his only son. Just as it takes a step of faith in replying to the LORD by our calling out to Him for the forgiveness of our sins (with the intention that we will honestly forsake them) with a Godly sorrow. Granted, we are not saving ourselves by our own power alone. That would be like claiming we saved ourselves when we were about to fall down a cliff and a person suddenly came to our rescue to pull us up by his hand (whereby we had to hold onto their hand as they pulled us up). For salvation is not by our power alone, but by God's power working in us (by our free will cooperation for the LORD to do so).

But I feel for your conviction, I have been there also. And its good that you want to gather in homes with other believers. This is the biblical apostolic pattern. The traditions of men creating these large man made buildings and calling them churches and the house of God etc is false and sets in the minds of others a false church and the very function of the church cannot happen in these lecturere formats. In these religious forms the body is silent and cannot minister to each other as they are commanded to do in scripture (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Romans 12, Ephesians 4:11-16, Colossians 3 etc) and they have one man as a master and Lord over the flock unlike the biblical order in God where there are elders ( plural) in every church ( singular).

Oh, yes. I couldn't agree more. I loved the videos you sent to me (a while back) and I am still praying for God to help me to have house fellowship with other believers who are just as passionate about God's goodness as we are.

If you send me your email I can send you a Newsletter I put out with another friend on this and i can send a letter I wrote to a church recently about these things.

I would be happy to give you my email for the Newsletter. Thank you.

If you lived in Ontario It would be easier to work with another home meeting.

God bless

I noticed you in the one video and I really liked how you spoke. It would be an honor some day to get the time off for both me and my wife to meet you and to gather in on one of your house church meetings (maybe at some point next year - LORD willing). While I live in the US, I do have the capability to easily travel (as long as both me and my wife can get the time off - which is the difficult part sometimes).

In any event, may God bless you, brother.
And may you please be well in the LORD always.


...

 

[aiki]

The Father sows the seed , Christ, the word, the true Light in every heart, but not all are in union with that seed.

See, this isn't what Christ taught in the parable. What does it mean, precisely, to have "Christ sown in the heart"? Is he there like the Holy Spirit is present in the heart of every genuine believer? Or is Christ only partially in residence in people's hearts? You know, just sort of idly loitering, waiting to see what'll happen. Or is he within people actively transforming them as the Holy Spirit does to the born again? If he is, how is it that people are unable to retain him, as Christ teaches in his parable? How do people know in the first place who Christ is and what he is doing in their heart when God sows him there? When you hold the view you do about the parable, you must greatly multiply explanations which is generally a sign, in my experience, that you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Christ also repeatedly teaches in the parable that people are responding to the word they hear. Is Jesus a sound, then? Does God sow a divine sound into the hearts of people? What is it they hear, exactly? Could it be they hear the Gospel, the divine truths of the kingdom of God, that Jesus has been preaching? It seems very evident to me that this is the case. And this view of the parable does not require any of the scriptural and explanatory gymnastics through which you are having to go to make your case.

Although scripture conveys the words of truth that witness to the inner witness of the word.

Ah, so now you seem to be acknowledging what I've been saying. It is the kingdom preaching of Christ, heard and accepted by his listeners, that sows the seed of God's truth into their hearts. And when they accept the truth of Christ's teaching with a "noble and good heart," they will come to a saving faith in him. Now that is much more in accord with the parable than "the Father sowing Jesus in their hearts" stuff.

Wrong I believe strongly in the Trinity doctrine, and i am strongly against Modalism and Oneness theology. You misunderstood me.

I'm glad to hear it!

"1.) How does the devil have power over Christ in the hearts of men such that he can snatch Christ out of their hearts and prevent them from being saved? (See verse 12)

2 Cor 4 about the devil blinding the minds of them that believe not, is part of that answer."

Surely Christ is more powerful than the devil and cannot be simply snatched away from the hearts of people as you seem to think Christ taught in his parable of the Sower? Why and how would Satan have such power over Christ and the work of the Father? How is Satan able to so completely confound the sowing of Christ in peoples' hearts by blinding them as you suggest? Your response above is extremely weak in explaining and justifying your thinking.

"2.) How can people be saved without there first being an atonement for sin? Christ is the Saviour who saves because of his atoning work on the cross.

Christ accomplished the work for those of the past who looked for Gods righteousness to save them. jesus said blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel, being witness by the law and the prophets."

My question above goes to the heart of the assertion you made in your OP to this thread. You contend that Judas was actually saved before salvation was available to him. Your answer here does not really explain how; it's just a collection of loosely-related statements that don't directly address my question at all.

Judas died before Christ did. He died a guilty betrayer of Christ. How, then, can he be saved? How is there salvation for Judas when, described by Christ as a "devil," (Jn. 6:70, 71) he died, unrepentant, in his sins?

The word of God does not always refer to scripture.

I never said that it did. In fact, I have explained in earlier posts that the term "word" has a variety of meanings in Scripture.

it can be the spoken word and that word can speak in the heart from God. This word is inward as well, even before men had scripture. This word is the seed sown in the hearts of all men from Adam until today.

I agree with you that "word" may refer to that which is spoken. I have no idea, though, what you mean by "word" being "inward...before men had Scripture." And, unfortunately, you don't explain what you mean, except to repeat your "word sown in the hearts of men" stuff that, as you've explained it so far, is vague and confused.

Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as the "perfect law of liberty." As God he is the Source of this law, but he is not the law itself any more than a baker is the bread he bakes. The "perfect law of liberty" is a description of the Gospel and the doctrines and principles of the New Covenant revealed in Scripture.

You show that you have much to learn. these spiritual things we are talking about are not seen but in the spirit, Consider

"...in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ( Romans 8:1-4 KJV)

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the response to your error. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and the truth will make you free. or in liberty.

Sorry, but as an "answer" this is not much of answer at all. Nothing in the passage from Romans 8 says, "Jesus is the perfect law of liberty." Yes, we find liberty from the condemnation and death of OT law in Christ, but this does not equate to saying that Jesus is himself the perfect law of liberty. That would be silly. "The perfect law of liberty" is a way of referring to Scripture, not Christ. These two things are closely related, but they are not identical.

You are very far from spiritual understanding in many things and confound yourself not even understanding the seed as the word of God sown in the heart.

Yeah...no. I understand very well the role of Scripture - the word of God, not the Word of God - in bringing me into relationship with God through Christ. But I don't confuse or conflate the word of God with the Word of God as you do. They aren't the same thing.

No you are the one to be rebuked, you call the anointing silliness.

No, I call your use of the term silly. The "anointing" is the Holy Spirit present within every genuinely born-again person. It is not some mystical, arcane power of enlightenment.

This just shows your ignorance, consider in Deuteronomy 30. This word, was in their hearts even before the law and it was not something new, or hidden as we read.

Deuteronomy 30 doesn't show this. The "voice of the Lord" to the Israelites was Moses, not Christ. (Read verse 8) When Moses says (in verse 14), "The word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart," he is referring to the commands he has just given to the Israelites from God. Moses says:

Deuteronomy 30:11
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

Again, Paul eliminates your reading when he clarifies that the "word" he is talking about is the "word of faith, which we preach," not Jesus. Paul's "word" are the things he is saying to believers as he preaches to them. Where, then, do you get this "Paul meant Jesus is the word" stuff from? It just isn't there in what Paul says! You must read such a thing into his words rather than draw it out of his words.

This is how Paul interprets that section in Romans, and he reveals a great mystery that was hid.

And this is how a person wanders into falsehood. You completely ignored Paul's own clarification and instituted your own ideas instead. Yikes!

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And this is how a person wanders into falsehood. You completely ignored Paul's own clarification and instituted your own ideas instead. Yikes!

Paul essentially said that if any man speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. To me, whenever a person ignores or speaks against the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and Matthew 12:36-37 (Which is common among OSAS Proponents), they are not heeding the warning from Paul in 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Also, Paul himself said that what he had written should be regarded as the LORD's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). So obviously when Paul says we are not under the Law, he was not referring to his own commands or laws to fellow believers. Paul was referencing the 613 Old Covenant Laws. For even many of the moral laws of the 9 out of the 10 Commandments are attached with death penalties in the Old Testament (Which is not the case for the New Testament). So the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). The temple veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death and the animal sacrifices are no longer valid. But we are still not to murder, hate, steal, commit sexual immorality, etc. To commit even one of these sins with the thinking one is saved because they think their future sin is somehow magically forgiven (when it is not) is only a self deception on the part of the person (Who is trying to justify the idea that they can serve God and their sin). But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. Sin still causes a separation from God, just like it did in the Garden; And Satan is still deceiving people today into buying into the lie (that Eve bought into) that says, "you shall not surely die" (in relation to committing sin). In other words, a belief in Jesus means nothing if there is no good fruit to show that the LORD lives within that person. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17); And without faith, it is impossible to please GOD. Ultimately, salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ, and without abiding in Him (and His good ways that He does within them), there is no life for a person (1 John 5:12).


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[LoveofTruth]

See, this isn't what Christ taught in the parable. What does it mean, precisely, to have "Christ sown in the heart"?

Christ is the seed sown the word that speaks in their heart. This is Gods voice speaking to the heart the conscience also bears witness. Today if any man hears his voice he should not harden his heart. God has always been not far from everyone of us. Having Christ in the heart is the life and the True Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world. This Light shines in all men of all times. This is the light of the word. Jesus said why all men are condemned ( this would be from Adam until today) it is when they hate the light. This light reproves all things and whatsoever doth make manifest is light as Paul said. Jesus said to believe in the light and to walk in the light. He also spoke of the light that is IN you. The seed sown in the heart as jesus said is the word of God. The seed is sown by the father who sowed the seed in the hearts of men. This seed is there as a light to reprove all and to show to all that which may be known of God at God manifest it to them inwardly. Romans 1, speaks of this in the KJV, for that which may be known of God is manifest in them.

When the word of God (small "w', for your consideration), came unto the prophets, they spoke that word as they had the revelation. This was written down and known as holy scripture, or the scriptures of truth. But this word of God coming to them, did not come from a written book. It was spiritual in their heart. This is the spirit of Christ that was in them, who did signify revelations and prophecy to them. This shows that the word of God with a small "w", was spiritual. This word did not fly down from heaven and then pop in them. No this word was already sown in their heart and they heard this word, this was the word of God speaking to them. This is what all must hear when they get saved. Some have never heard God;s voice inwardly. But Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they know me. Jesu spoke of men seeing and hearing with different eyes and ears than natural. These are spiritual eyes and ears. Except a man be born again they cannot see the kingdom of God.


Is he there like the Holy Spirit is present in the heart of every genuine believer? Or is Christ only partially in residence in people's hearts? You know, just sort of idly loitering, waiting to see what'll happen. Or is he within people actively transforming them as the Holy Spirit does to the born again? If he is, how is it that people are unable to retain him, as Christ teaches in his parable? How do people know in the first place who Christ is and what he is doing in their heart when God sows him there? When you hold the view you do about the parable, you must greatly multiply explanations which is generally a sign, in my experience, that you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Christ also repeatedly teaches in the parable that people are responding to the word they hear. Is Jesus a sound, then? Does God sow a divine sound into the hearts of people? What is it they hear, exactly? Could it be they hear the Gospel, the divine truths of the kingdom of God, that Jesus has been preaching? It seems very evident to me that this is the case. And this view of the parable does not require any of the scriptural and explanatory gymnastics through which you are having to go to make your case.

Ah, so now you seem to be acknowledging what I've been saying. It is the kingdom preaching of Christ, heard and accepted by his listeners, that sows the seed of God's truth into their hearts. And when they accept the truth of Christ's teaching with a "noble and good heart," they will come to a saving faith in him. Now that is much more in accord with the parable than "the Father sowing Jesus in their hearts" stuff.

No I am not saying that. Yes, Jesus spoke to men and if they heard his spoken word that was the truth . But the word and Light of Christ shoes in their heart and he was already there even before they saw him in the flesh. Jesus says everyone that doth evil hatter the light. This EVERYONE, would not be referring to just the few that head him speak physically, but all men of all time. God has not left himself without witness. His spirit bears witness with our spirit.

And yes the seed that is sown, is sown in the heart. Jesus is not referring to just his physical speaking there. He refers to all men of all time and how they have and do respond to the word in their hearts.

Surely Christ is more powerful than the devil and cannot be simply snatched away from the hearts of people as you seem to think Christ taught in his parable of the Sower? Why and how would Satan have such power over Christ and the work of the Father? How is Satan able to so completely confound the sowing of Christ in peoples' hearts by blinding them as you suggest? Your response above is extremely weak in explaining and justifying your thinking.

I did not suggest it I quoted Paul speaking by the spirit through scripture as we read,

"3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 32 Corinthians 4:3,4 KJV)

Here we see that because they believe not then the devil blinds the minds of them. So if men believe not jesus said they are condemned, not before they hate the light . So when they hate the light and believe not the devil comes and blinds them. i didn't make that up its all scripture and very clear.

You contend that Judas was actually saved before salvation was available to him.

I never said Judas was saved before salvation was available to him. I said he was saved as all were saved in the Old and new testament the same way, by grace through faith. He trusted Gods righteousness in his heart as all must. We read jesus saying , (before the cross) this day salvation is come to this house. And we read of the present salvation in the OT many places. The Old testament saints did all eat the same spiritual meat that we eat and drink the same spiritual drink that we drink, they all ate and drank of Christ, 1 Cor. 10.

Salvation is in Christ, and when men are saved they are born again. This is an inward work in the heart by the word of God, the seed sown. They may not have understood that this free gift came upon them and gave them inward life as it is inward and in mystery. But the reality is that Christ work on the cross in time purchased that free gift for all men from Adam until the the end.

Judas died before Christ did. He died a guilty betrayer of Christ. How, then, can he be saved? How is there salvation for Judas when, described by Christ as a "devil," (Jn. 6:70, 71) he died, unrepentant, in his sins?

Judas was saved and then fell away and lost it. that is what I have been showing in scripture all along. All OT saints were saved before the cross (but not without the cross in time) . They did go to a different place than the new testament saints go who believe after Christ died. But they were hid with God in Christ nevertheless. They went to paradise, not the torment part of hell.

Even Satan argued over the body of Moses in the OT ( the body of Moses representing those wOT saints) satan, may have thought they were his and yet they were hid and the body of Moses was not found also. Satan may have argued that Christ hadn't died yet and there was no final work to save them. But they had faith in Gods promise and God calls those things that aren't as though they were. They were able by their faith in God and his righteousness to have the free gift in them give life. This free gift is the seed sown, or the word of God, Christ in them, the truth they hold.

I have no idea, though, what you mean by "word" being "inward...before men had Scripture."

I gave you some examples of this deep spiritual truth. One was the word of God coming to the prophets. This word of God coming to them was not the scripture. But it spoke in them. This is the Spirit of Christ that spoke in them that signified things to come etc.

Jesus said (before the cross) that all the apostles were saved (or rather he says none of them is lost but Judas) John 17, is where you can find this.

Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as the "perfect law of liberty." As God he is the Source of this law, but he is not the law itself any more than a baker is the bread he bakes. The "perfect law of liberty" is a description of the Gospel and the doctrines and principles of the New Covenant revealed in Scripture.

Jesus is the word and the word is a light the light is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. They are all connected. Even the Gentiles which have not the law (or the law of Moses written) do by nature the things contained in the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts Romans 2"14, 15 or so/

God also says he will write the law in their hearts in the scripture. Then they shall all be taught of God.

No, I call your use of the term silly. The "anointing" is the Holy Spirit present within every genuinely born-again person. It is not some mystical, arcane power of enlightenment.

I use it as scripture uses it and I quoted 1 John 2:27.

Deuteronomy 30 doesn't show this. The "voice of the Lord" to the Israelites was Moses, not Christ. (Read verse 8) When Moses says (in verse 14), "The word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart," he is referring to the commands he has just given to the Israelites from God. Moses says:

Absolutely not. The whole context and use of this in Romans 10, shows that the commandment God gave on the mountain is not something that all men don't already know in some sense. We even see this with the gentiles who had not the law, they still had the work of the law written in their hearts. This is the secrets of men inwardly. The Jews also had this in their hearts. This is by the word sown there. This word is the true Light that lighgteth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9. This Light does what the law does it reproves all sin and shows them their evil and shows that which may be known of God.

Again, Paul eliminates your reading when he clarifies that the "word" he is talking about is the "word of faith, which we preach," not Jesus. Paul's "word" are the things he is saying to believers as he preaches to them. Where, then, do you get this "Paul meant Jesus is the word" stuff from? It just isn't there in what Paul says! You must read such a thing into his words rather than draw it out of his words.:

Paul says that jesus Christ speaks in him and others, and if men don't know that Jesus Christ is in them then they are reprobate. Jesus is in men as his word and he is the seed or Light in men. These are spiritual things and it is not a simple task to relate such inward things to the natural.

But the word of faith is inward and Paul spoke from that inward word of God in faith . Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. And Christ in you is the hope of glory. So to have saving faith is to have the substance ( Christ) in you. This is where Paul spoke from. and it is the same word of faith he preached. But this word had preached to every creature under heaven already. Paul echoed that same word as he said,

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" ( Colossians 1:21 KJV)

Notice the words, which was preached to every creature under heaven. This is the hope of the gospel was preached, and Christ in you is the hope as Paul said as well. God, the divine preacher has preached in the hearts of every man already as Paul said in Romans 10 when asked the question, "how shall they hear without a preacher?". Paul answers this question and he was talking about it all along. He says that Chris is not far from every one of us. He is the word sown in the heart by God that speaks to men. Paul says ,

"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;[this word of faith in the heart is the same as Paul preached to men, that is why it will bear witness with the hearts of men, and by a manifestation of the truth Paul commended himself to every mans conscience in the sight of God]

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13 For whosoever [including all men all over the earth before Jesus came and after, whosever includes all] shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [this is the logical question, how can a man hear about God to call on him if there is no preacher? But Paul poses this as a question, and he answers it in verse 18]
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18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Here Paul quotes Psalms 19 as well. We might ask why is Paul quoting this here, lets see,

"2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun," ( the Sun here may refer to the Son of God.

Remember Paul as a child had the Son of God in him and was called by Gods grace. This grace of God that bright salvation hath appeared to all men. Of God;s grace we have all received and grace for grace.. Though Paul was not in the truth then as a child. Paul said that God called him from his mothers womb to reveal his Son in him. This shows that even before he heard of Jesus Christ in the flesh or before he saw Jesus God was calling him inwardly by the Son . And to reveal His Son in him is much different than saying His Son came from outside of Him. To have the Son in his heart at Salvation through faith, came as he got a new heart and a right spirit within.

"15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,16 To reveal his Son in me,"( Galatians 1:15,16)

These are just some of the deep things that Paul writes about and that Jesus speaks. They are mysteries and connect with all scripture.

and read John 15 again. No person can do anything unless they have Jesus in them . here in John 15 we are that he is in them and they are in him. So no apostle could cast our devils, preach heal etc unless they were in Christ and saved. To be in Christ is to be saved. If he is in you and you in him

"2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, to preach a gospel that says, "We are saved by a belief alone and not by any works thru out our life at all" is wrong because it can lead people to think they can sin and still be saved (Even if that is something you don't want them to do). For when you take away the consequences of something, people are going to naturally do that which is bad. People can fall away from the faith. Judas, Ananais, and Sapphira are just a few examples of this in Scripture. So my encouragement to believers out there is to trust that God is good (and that His people would have to be naturally good all the way up until the end of their lives, too).


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[LoveofTruth]

yes if men are saved by grace through faith then they are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. God works in them to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work, working n them that which is well pleasing in His sight. if a man says they have faith and don't have God working in them, they are not in the faith. I ask show me your faith without God working in you and Ill show you my faith by God working in me. As the body without the spirit is dead so a professing believer without Gods Spirit in him is dead also.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Another thing that is ridiculous to me is that people think Jesus chose the 12 with one of them already being a devil. So does Jesus choose devils? Does Jesus who is the Holy Son of God want evil people to represent His Kingdom or gospel? The OSAS Proponent would like us to believe this, but it is just crazy talk and totally incomprehensible. For there is a difference of false deceiving believers (i.e. the weeds) being in our world and God actively choosing to hand pick an evil person to spread the gospel as one of His holy disciples. That doesn't make any sense.


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