Annihilationism

[Timothew]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This doesn't say that humans are tormented day and night forever. It says the devil, the beast and the false prophet. So it is not proof that humans will be tormented alive forever. When John explained what he meant by the lake of fire, he said that is the second death. So this passage is referring to the death of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. The devil will come to an end along with false government (the beast) and false religion (the false prophet).

You cannot use one unclear passage from the BOR to overrule all of the rest of scripture. You and I agreed that a person can be destroyed, and you have been shown the scripture that shows that the wicked will be destroyed. It is no longer a matter of knowledge but of will. You know that the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, it is just a matter of whether or not you will accept that truth. Will your commitment to the infernal doctrine override what you see written in the Bible?

 

[Alithis]

I am not suggesting that God sends people into eternal fire and keeps them alive forever in it and that makes Him a bad God.

I'm saying that the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed and instead of believing that God tortures people alive forever in hell, we should believe what the Bible says instead.

I see you brought up Isaiah 66:24. You should have read through the thread as this was patiently explained before.
Since I am a font of unlimited patience, I can explain it all over again just for your benefit.
Here is Isaiah 66:24 (NIV)
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

The worms are eating dead bodies, not living souls. Since this shows that those who rebel against God will perish, it is much better proof of the destruction of the wicked than it is for their never ending torment.

Destroyed from the flesh does not mean non existant in the spiriit. And i didnt bring up isaiah..i brought up mark 9 and the words of the lord Jesus.
And then we have the story of lazerus and the damned..they too exist.

But i do question the motive of those that resist the simple word of God.

 

[Alithis]

This doesn't say that humans are tormented day and night forever. It says the devil, the beast and the false prophet. So it is not proof that humans will be tormented alive forever. When John explained what he meant by the lake of fire, he said that is the second death. So this passage is referring to the death of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. The devil will come to an end along with false government (the beast) and false religion (the false prophet).

You cannot use one unclear passage from the BOR to overrule all of the rest of scripture. You and I agreed that a person can be destroyed, and you have been shown the scripture that shows that the wicked will be destroyed. It is no longer a matter of knowledge but of will. You know that the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, it is just a matter of whether or not you will accept that truth. Will your commitment to the infernal doctrine override what you see written in the Bible?

Again... What is eternal life.. To know god..
So what is eternal death ?...
Its not non existance..
Can you eplain non existance ? How does a spirit which has no physical form what so ever.... Cease to exist ?

 

[Timothew]

It will be the fate of unbelievers that their spirit will be consigned to eternal torment exactly as the Bible says and as Jesus himself said.

Actually, Jesus never ONCE said that the spirits of unbelievers will be consigned to eternal torment. You should not put your words into Jesus' mouth. But Jesus DID say that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. If you don't believe His words that the soul and body will be destroyed, you are unlikely to believe me when I tell you what He said.

If you don't believe what Matthew 25:46 says in plain English then there's nothing I can do about it because you're going against the very word of God.

I believe exactly what Matthew 25:46 says! It says that the wicked will go off to eternal punishment. This is exactly what I believe! Why would you claim that I don't believe Matthew 25:46? Are you assuming that the only kind of eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment? That's a bad assumption. Don't claim that I don't believe Matthew 25:46 just because I don't make the assumptions you make. When someone is destroyed by God and remains destroyed forever, that is certainly a punishment, and since they remain destroyed forever, it is eternal. An eternal punishment. You should not lie about what I believe. I completely agree with the very word of God. I simply disagree with the Very Word of Stan.

Now, I can make the case that YOU don't believe what Matthew 25:46 says.
According to you, if I can pin down what you believe, you believe that the righteous and the wicked will both exist forever, with the wicked going to hell where they are conscious of torment forever. So both the righteous and the wicked will have eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell. But Matthew 25:46 says that only the righteous go to eternal life. You are going against the very word of God.

 

[Timothew]

Destroyed from the flesh does not mean non existant in the spiriit. And i didnt bring up isaiah..i brought up mark 9 and the words of the lord Jesus.
And then we have the story of lazerus and the damned..they too exist.

But i do question the motive of those that resist the simple word of God.

I also question the motives of those that resist the simple word of God.
God's word says that the wicked will be destroyed. Why do you resist this? What is your motive for denying that the wicked will be destroyed?
"that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 92:7
The Bible never once says that the wicked will be given eternal life or that the spirits of the wicked will live forever.
But the Bible specifically states in many places that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, and will be no more.
Psalm 37:10 says the wicked will be no more. Why would you deny this by claiming that the wicked will exist forever in hell? Why resist the simple word of God? What is your motive for denying what the word of God says? Why do you question MY motive for believing God's Word? I simply accept what the Bible says.

 

[Timothew]

Again... What is eternal life.. To know god..
So what is eternal death ?...
Its not non existance..
Can you eplain non existance ? How does a spirit which has no physical form what so ever.... Cease to exist ?

Yes, the Bible says that the wicked will be no more. If your house burns down, it no longer exists. If it is not remade, it continues to not exist. Why is this hard to understand? Eternal death is death that lasts forever. The gift of God is eternal life, this gift is not given to those who reject God. Why is this difficult for you to understand?

 

[expos4ever]

You mean just as you support your assertions with citations and scripture?

You who made the following claim about the meaning of the word "destroy", not me! If you make a claim, it is up to you defend it

ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi) is ONLY used of the physical, NOT the meta-physical.

Please defend this claim.

Now for my part, let's consider the greek word used as "death" in Romans 6:23 ("the wages of sin is death"). It is the word "thanatos" as also used here in Matthew 20:18:

We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death.

Is Jesus being condemned to an eternity in torment? Of course not. Therefore, when the same word is used in Romans 6:23 to describe the "death" that results from sin, we have no particular reason to assume that this death is accompanied by an eternity in torment.[/quote]

 

[Timothew]

wow people keep switching references of the physical realm and the spiritual realm .. the smoke of the devils torment is spiritual eternal realm .. and it is there that it does go up for ever and ever ..
the lord is quite clear on that . there no confusion unless it is introduced by that serpentine agenda that asks .."did god reeeally say ,.????

well YES .. he DID . and he means it .

Actually, the serpentine agenda is the one that claims "Surely you will NOT die". That is the agenda that I am arguing against. It is those who believe that the wicked will exist forever in hell being tormented alive who are following the serpent's agenda. I've even had them try to tell me that a soul cannot die or be destroyed, contradicting the very words of God in Ezekiel 18:4 and Matthew 10:28! The confusion seems to have originated with the serpent in the garden and lives on in the tradition of men, which is an eternal life of torment in hell. There is no confusion if you just accept what God's word says in John 3:16 and throughout scripture: Whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but have eternal life. Did God say that the wicked will perish? Yes He did, in Psalm 37:20 and many other places in scripture. The Lord is quite clear on that, and it is only when you listen to the serpent do you start to doubt that the wages of sin really is death just as God's Word says.

 

[Timothew]

Evildoers are immortal and they will be continually destroyed forever.

I'm sorry, the Bible simply does not say that evildoers are immortal. If you think that the Bible says this, please show the Chapter and Verse. Destroyed forever means to be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. It does not mean a continuing state of destroying which never results in destruction. That could not be called "Destroyed". If the end of destruction is never reached, then it is not destruction.

But the simple fact is that the Bible never says that evildoers are immortal. The Bible says that the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Christ will not receive the Gift of eternal life. They will not receive immortality.

 

[Timothew]

That's because the Bible doesn't teach eternal torture, some just try to promulgate it.

At last! Welcome aboard Stan! The Bible doesn't teach eternal torture, according to the Bible the wages of sin is death.

Or were you going to attempt to argue that being set on fire and not allowed to ever die is not "torture"???
Good luck that THAT nonsense!

 

[Timothew]

Destroyed from the flesh does not mean non existant in the spiriit. And i didnt bring up isaiah..i brought up mark 9 and the words of the lord Jesus.

Destroyed means destroyed. It doesn't say "Destroyed from the flesh". Why must you read your infernal doctrine into every passage of scripture? If the wicked continue to exist in hell in some kind of spirit form, then they have not been destroyed. Concerning Isaiah 66:24, I assumed that it was common knowledge that Jesus in Mark 9 was quoting Isaiah. I forgot that not everyone has the same level of Bible knowledge. I apologize for that.

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 when He said "the worm does not die". Since the passage in Isaiah speaks of worms eating dead bodies, and Jesus did not say that the worms were eating living people, the passage in Mark (AND Isaiah) do not prove the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell.

You should have already known this. You really need to do your homework.

 

[expos4ever]

If you had actually studied this issue instead of following a false teaching you wouldn't know all of this.

You will soon discover that I have studied this issue quite extensively. Please stop with the cheap shots.

 

[expos4ever]

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/view.cgi?n=186

Where, and please be specific, does this site make an actual case - and not merely make statements - to the effect that terms like "death" and "destroy" imply - for the lost anyway - the notion of continuing existence of a 'soul' in a state of torment?

 

[Timothew]

You will soon discover that I have studied this issue quite extensively. Please stop with the cheap shots.

I am continually amazed that people can flat out deny what the Bible says, that the wicked will be destroyed, and then accuse those of us who believe that the wicked will be destroyed of "resisting the words of God".

I mean really! The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord! How much more clear can the Bible be? It comes right out and states in plain language that the wages of sin is death and NOT eternal life in hell being tormented alive. And if that weren't enough, it goes on to plainly state that the gift of God is eternal life!

They KNOW that the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. It is just willful denial of what the Bible clearly teaches. People are far happier believing what they have always believed than they are admitting they are wrong and accepting what the Bible clearly teaches.

 

[expos4ever]

Because it shows that there spirit and consciousness does not cease to exist after the body dies. How explicit the scripture have to be for you to believe it?

I asked you how the following implied the lost end up in eternal torment:

Jesus used it as a way to teach a couple of truths, one of which is where we go after we die and the other was the fact that people would still not believe that he was the Messiah even after he rose from the dead. He used what he knew to be real life situations.

How, and please be specific, does the above demonstrate that the lost end up in eternal torment. That was the question I asked! I did not challenge the idea that "spirit and consciousness go on after death" (I actually do challenge that idea, but in a way that needs to be carefully qualified).

 

[expos4ever]

Because I've been studying the Bible for over 45 years.

This is not a valid answer - you cannot simply cite years of study as an argument for a position on a Biblical teaching. Theologian NT Wright is far more qualified than you or me and he believes the Luke 16 account is a parable that has nothing at all to do with life after death.

How do you know I'm wrong?

Because if you are right about the Luke 16 passage, you contradict Paul who places judgment and the meting out of punishment in the future; on your view, the rich man has already been judged and is in torment.

All you do is doubt and bring up more questions.

Name one argument of mine, or question, that is in any way inappropriate.

You don't seem to have any idea what the Bible actually says except maybe what you've been told.

How can you possibly know what I have been told? You are, of course, speculating. And that has no place in a serious discussion. I have never levelled such a baseless accusation at you, have I?

I think it's best you use scripture to support your point of you rather than denying everybody else who does you scripture properly.

I already have - Romans 2 explains that judgment and the meting out of punishment to the lost comes at a future day of wrath.

 

[Der Alte]

If you believe that the devil will not be destroyed, you are mistaken.

This doesn't say that humans are tormented day and night forever. It says the devil, the beast and the false prophet. So it is not proof that humans will be tormented alive forever. When John explained what he meant by the lake of fire, he said that is the second death. So this passage is referring to the death of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. The devil will come to an end along with false government (the beast) and false religion (the false prophet).

I did not quote Revelation 20:10 as evidence that humans will be punished alive forever. I quoted the verse in response to your previous post quoted above. Scripture does not say the devil will be destroyed but will be tormented day and nigh for ever and ever.

You cannot use one unclear passage from the BOR to overrule all of the rest of scripture. You and I agreed that a person can be destroyed, and you have been shown the scripture that shows that the wicked will be destroyed.

You have shown me some out-of-context proof texts which, you mistakenly think, show that the wicked will be destroyed but I have repeatedly shown you that the word you are relying on means to spoil like spilled wine, flowers fading, food decaying, drowning, being killed by snakes, being killed by a falling tower, etc.

It is no longer a matter of knowledge but of will. You know that the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, it is just a matter of whether or not you will accept that truth. Will your commitment to the infernal doctrine override what you see written in the Bible?

For once you are correct it is a matter of will. You have a handful of out-of-context proof texts and you ignore everything which proves you wrong.

 

[expos4ever]

Look I'm using a very basic English vernacular and if you don't understand that I'm sorry but I'm not an English teacher... ask somebody who is an English teacher. I guess I'm not surprised that in using the King James version, you have no idea what the Bible really says.

Why the insults? What actual evidence do you have that I "have no idea what the Bible really says"? Your posts are often peppered with dismissive cheap shots like this. For my part, I stick to the relevant arguments. And by the way, I never use the KJV intentionally; where did I quote from the KJV? If I did, it was a copy and paste error.

Look: You initially posted this:

There is no such thing as universal salvation just as there is no such thing as annihilation, and to believe one is to believe the other.

I am no English teacher, but to say "to believe one is to believe the other" is to say that if you believe in annihilation, you also believe in universal salvation. And vice versa.

I simply asked you to defend this rather unusual statement.

So please tell us, why does belief in one of these doctrines necessitate belief in the other?

 

[Der Alte]

Destroyed means destroyed. It doesn't say "Destroyed from the flesh". Why must you read your infernal doctrine into every passage of scripture? If the wicked continue to exist in hell in some kind of spirit form, then they have not been destroyed. Concerning Isaiah 66:24, I assumed that it was common knowledge that Jesus in Mark 9 was quoting Isaiah. I forgot that not everyone has the same level of Bible knowledge. I apologize for that.
Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 when He said "the worm does not die". Since the passage in Isaiah speaks of worms eating dead bodies, and Jesus did not say that the worms were eating living people, the passage in Mark (AND Isaiah) do not prove the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell.
You should have already known this. You really need to do your homework.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24 how did Jesus' Jewish audience understand it? See historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia and Talmud, below.
.....The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Timothew]

For once you are correct it is a matter of will. You have a handful of out-of-context proof texts and you ignore everything which proves you wrong.

Since the bible SAYS that the wicked will be destroyed, that is what I believe. What is that to you?
If you believe that the Bible is translated incorrectly, why don't you work to correct that error? Why do you continually try to prove to me that the wicked will not be destroyed?

All you have are a handful of the same old passages that your group uses to prove that God sends people to hell where they are tormented alive forever, and whenever I point out that the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, you claim that destroyed does not mean destroyed. It is much more than "a handful of out-of-context proof texts" and I think you know this deep down, although you will never admit it out loud.

The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death (why don't you believe it?)
AND the gift of God is eternal life. If death doesn't mean death, then why does the verse go on to say that the gift of God is eternal life? All you can do is deny that the words of the Bible actually mean what they say. Forgive me for ignoring you when you tell me "death" doesn't really mean "death", destruction doesn't really mean destruction, perish doesn't really mean perish.

Just where, exactly, does the Bible ever say "Death" or "Destruction" really mean eternal life and eternal nondestruction in hell. I'm looking for a Chapter and a Verse, since you claim that I only have "a handful of out-of-context proof texts." It should be easy for a Bible Scholar such as yourself to show where the Bible says "death doesn't really mean death, it means eternal life in hell." Easy, that is, IF the Bible really ever said that! Much more difficult since the Bible never says that.