Annihilationism

[expos4ever]

Because I know the English language and the rules of grammar. Unless you're using death in a metaphorical sense, it always relates to animation ceasing in a living organism. The same is true of the Bible.

I think you are begging the question. While you have not come out and explicitly said this, I will bet you when you say "animation ceasing in a living organism" you are merely re-stating that which you need to demonstrate - that "death" does not denote the complete end of the individual in totality.

Why can't you provide a dictionary definition - from a Greek dictionary - as requested? You need to do this to make your assertion stick - you cannot expect the reader to simply accept your personal definition - we need a definition from an independent expert source (a Greek dictionary).

Jesus used it as a way to teach a couple of truths, one of which is where we go after we die and the other was the fact that people would still not believe that he was the Messiah even after he rose from the dead. He used what he knew to be real life situations.

How does any of this support the notion that the lost end up in a state of eternal torment?

Lazarus was real, and so was the rich man.

How do you know this? How do you know the Luke account was not a parable that has nothing to do with the afterlife? Note that there are some scholars who believe the account indeed has nothing to do with the afterlife.

 

[StanJ]

Why? Please explain why a belief in annihilation necessitates a belief in universal salvation?

Didn't say that it necessitates I said they both go together.

 

[StanJ]

There is no difference between torture and torment. You support that in the LOF people live forever in pain and that's biblically false.

There's a big difference if you look it up in the dictionary. Do I actually have to explain to you the difference? Torture is brought on by external sources and torment is brought on by internal sources. God doesn't torture and you can't torture a metaphysical being, but they can be tormented when they realize their lack of faith and belief brought them to their present situation and that there is no way out. This torment is compounded by having to constantly realize it.

 

[expos4ever]

Lazarus was real, and so was the rich man.

If this is so - if the rich man from the Luke 16 account is already in torment and has been for > 2000 years - how come Paul writes of a future judgement and meting out of punishment here in Romans 2:

but because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Please complete the following sentence:

It is sensible for Paul to announce a future meting out of judgment and punishment for people (like the rich man in Luke 16) who are already in eternal torment because........

 

[expos4ever]

Didn't say that it necessitates I said they both go together.

What do you mean by this, then (I added bolding)?

There is no such thing as universal salvation just as there is no such thing as annihilation, and to believe one is to believe the other

 

[ewq1938]

There's a big difference if you look it up in the dictionary. Do I actually have to explain to you the difference? Torture is brought on by external sources and torment is brought on by internal sources.

Torture and torment have the same meaning. There is no such punishment in scripture. Death and destruction is the only punishment for the unsaved.

dictionary.com

Torment

verb (used with object)
1.
to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain:
to be tormented with violent headaches.
2.
to worry or annoy excessively:
to torment one with questions.
3.
to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.
noun
4.
a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.
something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.
a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.
an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.
the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.


Synonyms

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
1. harry, hector, vex, distress, agonize. T orment , rack , torture suggest causing great physical or mental pain, suffering, or harassment. T o torment is to afflict or harass as by incessant repetition of vexations or annoyances: to be tormented by doubts. T o rack is to affect with such pain as that suffered by one stretched on a rack; to concentrate with painful effort: to rack one's brains. T o torture is to afflict with acute and more or less protracted suffering: to torture one by keeping one in suspense. 2. plague, pester, tease, provoke, needle, trouble, fret. 4. torture, distress, anguish.


Torture
noun
1.
the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2.
a method of inflicting such pain.
3.
Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4.
extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5.
a cause of severe pain or anguish.
verb (used with object), tortured, torturing.
6.
to subject to torture.
7.
to afflict with severe pain of body or mind:
My back is torturing me.
8.
to force or extort by torture:
We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9.
to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form:
trees tortured by storms.
10.
to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

Synonyms

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
6. See torment.

 

[StanJ]

I think you are begging the question. While you have not come out and explicitly said this, I will bet you when you say "animation ceasing in a living organism" you are merely re-stating that which you need to demonstrate - that "death" does not denote the complete end of the individual in totality.
Why can't you provide a dictionary definition - from a Greek dictionary - as requested? You need to do this to make your assertion stick - you cannot expect the reader to simply accept your personal definition - we need a definition from an independent expert source (a Greek dictionary).

You mean just as you support your assertions with citations and scripture? I will, but I doubt you will accept it and will likely deflect to something else. If you had actually studied this issue instead of following a false teaching you wouldn't know all of this.
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/view.cgi?n=186

How does any of this support the notion that the lost end up in a state of eternal torment?

Because it shows that there spirit and consciousness does not cease to exist after the body dies. How explicit the scripture have to be for you to believe it?

How do you know this? How do you know the Luke account was not a parable that has nothing to do with the afterlife? Note that there are some scholars who believe the account indeed has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Because I've been studying the Bible for over 45 years. How do you know I'm wrong? All you do is doubt and bring up more questions. You don't seem to have any idea what the Bible actually says except maybe what you've been told. I think it's best you use scripture to support your point of you rather than denying everybody else who does you scripture properly.

 

[StanJ]

Torture and torment have the same meaning. There is no such punishment in scripture. Death and destruction is the only punishment for the unsaved.

dictionary.com

Torment

verb (used with object)
1.
to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain:
to be tormented with violent headaches.
2.
to worry or annoy excessively:
to torment one with questions.
3.
to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.
noun
4.
a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.
something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.
a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.
an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.
the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.


Synonyms

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
1. harry, hector, vex, distress, agonize. T orment , rack , torture suggest causing great physical or mental pain, suffering, or harassment. T o torment is to afflict or harass as by incessant repetition of vexations or annoyances: to be tormented by doubts. T o rack is to affect with such pain as that suffered by one stretched on a rack; to concentrate with painful effort: to rack one's brains. T o torture is to afflict with acute and more or less protracted suffering: to torture one by keeping one in suspense. 2. plague, pester, tease, provoke, needle, trouble, fret. 4. torture, distress, anguish.


Torture
noun
1.
the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2.
a method of inflicting such pain.
3.
Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4.
extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5.
a cause of severe pain or anguish.
verb (used with object), tortured, torturing.
6.
to subject to torture.
7.
to afflict with severe pain of body or mind:
My back is torturing me.
8.
to force or extort by torture:
We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9.
to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form:
trees tortured by storms.
10.
to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

Synonyms

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
6. See torment.

I am amazed that you actually copy and paste the definitions and don't see the difference! They clearly show that torment when it comes to the spiritual is exactly what the Bible refers to and there is no torture to the spiritual it only exists in the physical. Seems to me your dogmatic bias has made you blind to even the most basic grammatical rules? You should realize, given that you know how to look up definitions, that the meaning of every word is based on the context wherein it is used. As the context of 'tormented forever' is in the spiritual sense, then torture cannot possibly be used to convey the same meaning and in fact torture is not used in the scripture, torment is.

 

[StanJ]

What do you mean by this, then (I added bolding)?

Look I'm using a very basic English vernacular and if you don't understand that I'm sorry but I'm not an English teacher... ask somebody who is an English teacher. I guess I'm not surprised that in using the King James version, you have no idea what the Bible really says.

 

[ewq1938]

I am amazed that you actually copy and paste the definitions and don't see the difference!

lol, you are impossible. There is no such difference that you suppose. I even quoted that they are synonyms.

People will argue anything even if clearly disproven.

 

[StanJ]

If this is so - if the rich man from the Luke 16 account is already in torment and has been for > 2000 years - how come Paul writes of a future judgement and meting out of punishment here in Romans 2:
but because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile
Please complete the following sentence:
It is sensible for Paul to announce a future meting out of judgment and punishment for people (like the rich man in Luke 16) who are already in eternal torment because........

Paul was speaking to living people, not dead people. Remember God is the God of the living not the dead. Where the dead wait for judgement should not be a place of comfort and peace and if you think that you've got more than one problem on your hands
Please refer to the word of God and stop using your own human sensibilities to interpret God's word. It's not about me completing your sentences or anybody else's, it's about you Understanding God's word and agreeing with it. Not agreeing with God's word is a sin.

 

[StanJ]

lol, you are impossible. There is no such difference that you suppose. I even quoted that they are synonyms.
People will argue anything even if clearly disproven.

Yes and your continued arguing points to that point very clearly. Just because the word can be used as a synonym doesn't mean that it has the same connotation or rendering, and anybody with a grade school education should know those grammatical rules.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes and your continued arguing points to that point very clearly. Just because the word can be used as a synonym doesn't mean that it has the same connotation or rendering, and anybody with a grade school education should know those grammatical rules.

You remain proven wrong. You opine, I prove. You mention a dictionary, I use one to disprove you. Eternal torment and eternal torture is the same concept based on the dictionary and both are unscriptural falsehoods.

Only the saved live forever. Everyone else is dead and destroyed forever.

 

[StanJ]

You remain proven wrong. You opine, I prove. You mention a dictionary, I use one to disprove you. Eternal torment and eternal torture is the same concept based on the dictionary and both are unscriptural falsehoods.
Only the saved live forever. Everyone else is dead and destroyed forever.

Another word you obviously don't know the meaning of, proven. Only the inculcated have your specific myopic point of view. You didn't disprove me with the dictionary you just showed your own ignorance. Torment and torture are not the same thing and you can call up any grade school English teacher and ask them. When you can actually show where the Bible uses the word torture then you may have something but until you can prove yourself to be gone and that you inspired the Bible all your rhetoric equals zero.

 

[ewq1938]

You didn't disprove me with the dictionary you just showed your own ignorance.

No, I showed yours. The dictionary you called for showed how badly wrong you were but I already knew that would happen before going to the dictionary because I know what the two words mean.

 

[Alithis]

Correct.


Indeed, and to be annihilated is the textbook definition of this.



This does not follow logically. You seem to be arguing that to be "cut off" from state X necessarily means that you must enter the state "opposite" to X.

But this is not true in general. If an animal is "cut off" from water, it dies and entirely ceases to be - it does not enter an eternal state of thirst.

this is just a lot of woffling conjecture
the scripture doesnt ever even imply non existence.
why do you want it to be so ? does it appease some unrepentant sin perhaps ?

 

[StanJ]

No, I showed yours. The dictionary you called for showed how badly wrong you were but I already knew that would happen before going to the dictionary because I know what the two words mean.

You obviously don't like I said anybody with the great school education and grammar would be able to tell.
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct12.htm
http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

 

[ewq1938]

You obviously don't like I said anybody with the great school education and grammar would be able to tell.

If you meant "grade school" instead of what you typed, then it still doesn't change anything. You have been wrong on all points on all parts of this topic. Remember when you claimed torment and torture weren't the same word in English and told me to go to a dictionary? Big oops on your part.

 

[Timothew]

the error is "attributing God with evil"like Jobs friends did
God can cast people into hell and be perfectly justified holy and Good by doing so .

to suggest that god will not cast into eternal fires where the worm does not die nor is the fire quenched would cause god to cease from being good is to accuse god is evil by declaring it in his word .. god is not evil
God is merciful god has made it so that NONE need go to such a doom .

you need to reflect on what eternal life is
jesus tells us ....
"and this is eternal life that they may KNOW you ...
thus it stands to reason that eternal death is not a ceasing of existence but an eternal estrangement from god .. to be cut off from all that is good and comfort and peace ...

I am not suggesting that God sends people into eternal fire and keeps them alive forever in it and that makes Him a bad God.

I'm saying that the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed and instead of believing that God tortures people alive forever in hell, we should believe what the Bible says instead.

I see you brought up Isaiah 66:24. You should have read through the thread as this was patiently explained before.
Since I am a font of unlimited patience, I can explain it all over again just for your benefit.
Here is Isaiah 66:24 (NIV)
And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

The worms are eating dead bodies, not living souls. Since this shows that those who rebel against God will perish, it is much better proof of the destruction of the wicked than it is for their never ending torment.

 

[Timothew]

Dead bodies is not the issue. ALL BODIES end up dead.
The existence of the soul after physical death is the issue.

There is not one statement in all of scripture that points or alludes to the permanent destruction of beings.
That's why there is a Hell. That's where the bad ones go. That is what scripture says repeatedly.
Dancing around the issue or twisting scripture or the meanings of words to suit your own notions does not change anything.

"All bodies end up dead"???
Nice, you just "proved" that there is no resurrection. Don't be so eager to prove that there is eternal torment in hell that you end up denying that God resurrects the dead.

You are mistaken that there is not one statement in scripture that points to the permanent destruction of the wicked. The destruction of the wicked is repeated in scripture many times, and I am surprised that you would make such a bold (and false) claim. There are MANY passages that say this, it only takes one of them to prove that the wicked will be destroyed forever. Here is Psalm 92:7 as one example:
"that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

For fun, read Psalm 92:6 as well so that you can see what God thinks of people who deny that the wicked will be permanently destroyed.

As a matter of fact, there is not one statement in all of scripture that says that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. You have to dance around the scriptures to even get to that idea. But there are hundreds of verses that specifically state that the wicked will perish, the wicked will be no more, they will be burnt to ash, and they will be destroyed. I don't know why you haven't seen this.