Annihilationism

[expos4ever]

this is just a lot of woffling conjecture

No, it is clear reasoned argument. You stated:

...to be cut of forever from all that is god and peace and comfort and rest ... is to be in a state of all that is everything torment

I merely showed that this is not correct reasoning in all cases. You can be cut off from access to state "X" without necessarily being then cast into a state that is the "opposite" of X.

And I gave a concrete example.

So what is your response? How do you actually defend your claim that to be cut off from a God of comfort and rest necessarily means that you end up in torment?

the scripture doesnt ever even imply non existence.

Sure it does, at least at many places. The wages of sin is death. Unless a case can be made that we do not take the term to mean what it normally means - the end of all life functions including conscious awareness - then we have a clear statement by Paul that the result of sin is non-existence.

why do you want it to be so ? does it appease some unrepentant sin perhaps ?

Why do all of you eternal torment types engage in these cheap shots? Please do not speculate about something you have no knowledge of and deal with the actual arguments.

For example, assuming you believe that Luke 16 is a literal account - if the rich man from the Luke 16 account is already in torment and has been for > 2000 years - how come Paul writes of a future judgement and meting out of punishment here in Romans 2:

but because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Please complete the following sentence:

It is sensible for Paul to announce a future meting out of judgment and punishment for people (like the rich man in Luke 16) who are already in eternal torment because........

 

[Timothew]

When Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24 how did Jesus' Jewish audience understand it?

Since Isaiah 66:24 is specifically talking about DEAD BODIES, anyone in Jesus' audience who knew what Isaiah 66:24 said would understand that Isaiah 66:24 is talking about DEAD BODIES and not tormented souls in hell.

You ought to know this too, by now.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul was speaking to living people, not dead people.Remember God is the God of the living not the dead. Where the dead wait for judgement should not be a place of comfort and peace and if you think that you've got more than one problem on your hands

Not the point. Paul clearly lays out a future judgment scenario at which all human beings are judged and, in the case of the lost, punishment meted out.

This is in the future. Do you deny this?

Well, if this punishment is meted out in the future, why is the rich man from Luke 16 already in torment?

You need to answer this question. Yes, Paul is writing to the living in Romans 2. But he still describes a judgment that applies to all:

- those who have died at the time Paul wrote Romans 2;
- those who are alive at the time Paul wrote Romans 2;
- those not yet born, like you and me, when Paul wrote Romans 2.

 

[expos4ever]

Please refer to the word of God and stop using your own human sensibilities to interpret God's word.

This is a common false argument - implying that those who disagree with the view of a poster are using "faulty human reasoning". A grade 7 student will know the problem with this argument - it can just as easily be directed at you.

Clearly, we all use our minds in interpreting scripture, so please drop this demonstrably invalid argument.

It's not about me completing your sentences or anybody else's, it's about you Understanding God's word and agreeing with it. Not agreeing with God's word is a sin.

The fact that you - for now anyway - have not completed the sentence strongly suggests that you cannot do so precisely because to complete the sentence would demonstrate the clear contradiction between the view that Luke 16 is a literal account and what Paul writes in Romans 2.

Other believers in the notion that Luke 16 is a literal account also have refused to complete this sentence.

Same reason, I suspect.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Psalm 37:10 says the wicked will be no more. Why would you deny this by claiming that the wicked will exist forever in hell? Why resist the simple word of God? What is your motive for denying what the word of God says? Why do you question MY motive for believing God's Word? I simply accept what the Bible says.

This is one of your out-of-context proof texts which I have repeatedly shown you. Psalm 37 is not about man's eternal fate it is about what God does to Israel's enemies in this world

Psalm 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psalm 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
Psalm 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is death (why don't you believe it?).....

This post is a deliberate blatant falsehood and you know it. Read my post #163.

Nobody argues with Romans 6:23 your out-of-context proof text. But Paul also wrote Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" And Hebrews 9:27 tells us "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
..... All, 100%, of mankind has sinned, is appointed to die and face judgement. Thus the requirement of Rom 6:23 will certainly be fulfilled by all, 100%, of mankind. But what the proof text does not say is "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death." ​

Now tell me again I don't believe Romans 6:23.

 

[Der Alte]

Since Isaiah 66:24 is specifically talking about DEAD BODIES, anyone in Jesus' audience who knew what Isaiah 66:24 said would understand that Isaiah 66:24 is talking about DEAD BODIES and not tormented souls in hell.
You ought to know this too, by now.

You ignored my post. Here is the historical evidence again.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Timothew]

This is one of your out-of-context proof texts which I have repeatedly shown you. Psalm 37 is not about man's eternal fate it is about what God does to Israel's enemies in this world

Psalm 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psalm 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
Psalm 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

This post is a deliberate blatant falsehood and you know it. Read my post #163.

Nobody argues with Romans 6:23 your out-of-context proof text. But Paul also wrote Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" And Hebrews 9:27 tells us "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
..... All, 100%, of mankind has sinned, is appointed to die and face judgement. Thus the requirement of Rom 6:23 will certainly be fulfilled by all, 100%, of mankind. But what the proof text does not say is "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death." ​

Now tell me again I don't believe Romans 6:23.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
IF you agree with this, then you and I agree and there is nothing for you to argue about. If you do not agree that the wages of sin is death, then certainly you should be able to understand WHY it is that I believe that the wages of sin is death. If you do not believe that there is a resurrection and judgment after the first death, then I don't know what else to say. If you do not believe there is a second death after the judgment for those who have not received God's gift of eternal life, I don't know what I can say to convince you. If you haven't discovered that there is life, death, resurrection, judgment and a second death spoken of in the Bible, then you must have been reading the Bible with your eyes closed for 50 years.

Now, I know that you are committed to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment and there is nothing that anyone can say that will change your mind. Fine, whatever. But AT LEAST admit that those of us who believe that the wicked will be destroyed believe it because that is what the Bible specifically says. If you want to believe that death and destruction really mean eternal life in hell being burnt alive forever, that's your business. You can also believe that up is down, black is white, dogs are cats, night is day and death is life. (Which you already believe) Your error will not ever affect MY life.

 

[Timothew]

You ignored my post...

And you ignored what Isaiah 66:24 actually SAYS. I don't care HOW many people believe that Isaiah 66:24 is talking about living souls being tormented alive by immortal and fireproof worms. I believe what it says. If you want to join the Pharisees, I'm not stopping you. But just because Tom, Dick, and Harry believe that Isaiah 66:24 is solid proof that dead corpses can be tortured alive by fireproof worms, that doesn't make it true.

Quote anyone you want, it they do not believe the truth, then they are wrong.

 

[mikpat]

As God has freely created creatures, He is also free to annihilate them through the withdrawing of of His conserving influence, if not the creatures, regardless of who they are, will relapse into nothingness. God cannot make a creature that He cannot destroy———-that's old hi school corner talk.

My opinion— at end of time—-those in purgatory will finish up there repentance/purification etc. and ascend into heaven——those in hell or what ever———-will end their existence…….their punishment is not witnessing the "Beatific Vision".

If hell is for eternity—-what purpose does it serve———pouring boiling oil on some one for eternity is unimaginable. Besides who is going to pay for the coal, oil and lighting in hades, the middle class ??

Regardless of religious or non-religious beliefs, all human beings in their restless hearts seek truth and truth is the desire to seek God and to see Him. This is a gift from God—-whether we pay attention to the calling depends on our choices. One can feel here on earth, ever so slightly, the pain in knowing,,,never, never to see God. Think about it….

 

[StanJ]

"All bodies end up dead"???
Nice, you just "proved" that there is no resurrection. Don't be so eager to prove that there is eternal torment in hell that you end up denying that God resurrects the dead.

Heb 9:27 supports that you just proved you have no idea what you're talking about. Resurrection requires that the bodies are dead. The only ones who won't die will be the ones that are alive when Jesus returns. That's it just you look up the meaning of the word inculcated.
By the way what denomination do you belong to?

 

[StanJ]

I'm saying that the Bible specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed and instead of believing that God tortures people alive forever in hell, we should believe what the Bible says instead.

Only in this world are the wicked destroyed. The Bible does not say the contrary, nor does it say that God tortures anyone.
http://the-difference-between.com/torture/torment

 

[Der Alte]

And you ignored what Isaiah 66:24 actually SAYS. I don't care HOW many people believe that Isaiah 66:24 is talking about living souls being tormented alive by immortal and fireproof worms. I believe what it says. If you want to join the Pharisees, I'm not stopping you. But just because Tom, Dick, and Harry believe that Isaiah 66:24 is solid proof that dead corpses can be tortured alive by fireproof worms, that doesn't make it true.
Quote anyone you want, it they do not believe the truth, then they are wrong.

No I did NOT ignore anything I addressed your out-of-context proof text Isaiah 66:24 quoting it in its correct context. I did not quote anyone who said anything. But how about if I quote OT scripture which shows the dead in sheol moving, speaking having feelings? Will you believe what they literally say or will you try to explain them away?
.....In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they [in sheol] shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.[/SIZE]​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[StanJ]

You should not put your words into Jesus' mouth.

You mean like you do?
The word “soul” in this context implies “the capacity to live.” That is, another human being may be able to take away our life, but we still have the capacity to live again. God can always bring us back to life in the resurrection. So, though we naturally fear people who can cause our physical death, Jesus was giving us the true, eternal perspective. We should not fear man, but God. (ucg.org)

But Jesus DID say that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. If you don't believe His words that the soul and body will be destroyed, you are unlikely to believe me when I tell you what He said.

I believe his words I just don't accept your interpolation. Jesus never said that the soul and body will be destroyed he said fear Him who CAN destroy the body and soul. Luke 12:5 makes it clearer for those like you who are confused. The person who still qualifies for the resurrection and eternal life does not have to fear man at all. The person who does not qualify for resurrection and eternal life definitely has to fear God. The fact that some people can't tell the difference between the living and the dead it's not unusual but then again that's why we have a God.

I believe exactly what Matthew 25:46 says! It says that the wicked will go off to eternal punishment. This is exactly what I believe! Why would you claim that I don't believe Matthew 25:46? Are you assuming that the only kind of eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment? That's a bad assumption. Don't claim that I don't believe Matthew 25:46 just because I don't make the assumptions you make. When someone is destroyed by God and remains destroyed forever, that is certainly a punishment, and since they remain destroyed forever, it is eternal. An eternal punishment. You should not lie about what I believe. I completely agree with the very word of God. I simply disagree with the Very Word of Stan.

Problem with not understanding basic English vernacular rears its ugly head again. Punishment and destruction are not the same thing. As Jesus said punishment and yours forever. This punishment is being separated from God forever. Nowhere does the Bible say nor does Jesus say but these spirits are destroyed forever. Not only is redundant but it just doesn't exist in Scripture. My claim is true because you don't believe that the punishment and yours forever you believe that these Spirits are destroyed therefore there is no punishment. When you punish your children you destroyed them? I'd hate to be your kid.

Now, I can make the case that YOU don't believe what Matthew 25:46 says.
According to you, if I can pin down what you believe, you believe that the righteous and the wicked will both exist forever, with the wicked going to hell where they are conscious of torment forever. So both the righteous and the wicked will have eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell. But Matthew 25:46 says that only the righteous go to eternal life. You are going against the very word of God.

If you don't know what I believe by now you'll never know. The problem is that you are so inculcated into your own dogmatic point of view that you cannot view Scripture and other way. It's called positional bias and it's how many false teachings flourish and always have since Jesus' time. Bible clearly shows that hell won't exist forever and if you're able to understand anything in Revelations you would know that.
It says it all those thrown into the Lake of Fire will end your torment night and day for all time. You deny that so you obviously don't believe what God's word says there either. More important thing for us is to learn what God's word does say and not learn what others believe.

 

[Timothew]

<staff edit>

Well, since the truth of the Bible is "The wicked shall be destroyed forever" and what I think the truth is is "The wicked shall be destroyed forever" there doesn't really seem to be a big difference.

But feel free to think whatever you want and insult me in any way you want. I just report what the Bible says, and I don't care if you think it means something different from what it says.
Read Psalm 92:6-7
John 3:16
Romans 6:23
2nd Thessalonians 1:9
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 25:46
Jude 1:7
All of 2nd Peter
Ezekiel 18:4
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 37:20
Psalm 37:38
Romans 1-6
All of Paul's letters
Everything Jesus said
What God said to Adam...

 

[StanJ]

I'm sorry, the Bible simply does not say that evildoers are immortal. If you think that the Bible says this, please show the Chapter and Verse. Destroyed forever means to be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. It does not mean a continuing state of destroying which never results in destruction. That could not be called "Destroyed". If the end of destruction is never reached, then it is not destruction.

But the simple fact is that the Bible never says that evildoers are immortal. The Bible says that the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Christ will not receive the Gift of eternal life. They will not receive immortality.

Bible also doesn't say that people are tortured yet you keep on saying it does.

 

[Timothew]

Only in this world are the wicked destroyed. The Bible does not say the contrary, nor does it say that God tortures anyone.
http://the-difference-between.com/torture/torment

Sorry but you are incorrect. The Bible does not say "Only in this world are the wicked destroyed". IF the wicked are only destroyed in "this world" not destroyed in the next 6 or 7 worlds or whatever your cult teaches, then the wicked have not been destroyed, just moved from one place to another. The Bible says in Psalm 92:6-7 that the wicked will be destroyed forever and it is only the Stupid and the Foolish who cannot understand or know this:
The stupid man cannot know;
the fool cannot understand this:
that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;
Psalm 92:6-7 ESV

 

[StanJ]

Well, since the truth of the Bible is "The wicked shall be destroyed forever" and what I think the truth is is "The wicked shall be destroyed forever" there doesn't really seem to be a big difference.
But feel free to think whatever you want and insult me in any way you want. I just report what the Bible says, and I don't care if you think it means something different from what it says.

Yes, ans seeing as wicked people have no chance of ever being resurrected into eternal life then those people are destroyed forever. It says nothing about their spirit. You impose your own personal view on scripture and try to make it say what it doesn't and those who know scripture know the difference.

 

[Timothew]

Bible also doesn't say that people are tortured yet you keep on saying it does.

You are not telling the truth. I NEVER once said that the Bible says that people are tortured in hell. I am the one who does NOT believe that the Bible says that the wicked will be tortured alive in hell forever. I believe what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish.

 

[StanJ]

Sorry but you are incorrect. The Bible does not say "Only in this world are the wicked destroyed". IF the wicked are only destroyed in "this world" not destroyed in the next 6 or 7 worlds or whatever your cult teaches, then the wicked have not been destroyed, just moved from one place to another. The Bible says in Psalm 92:6-7 that the wicked will be destroyed forever and it is only the Stupid and the Foolish who cannot understand or know this:
The stupid man cannot know;
the fool cannot understand this:
that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;
Psalm 92:6-7 ESV

Well as David was dealing with the wicked of this world and he was of this world then obviously he was dealing with the wicked of this world. The fact that you don't see that, is problematic only for you and those like you. Those of us who understand scripture don't have a problem with it.

 

[Timothew]

Yes, ans seeing as wicked people have no chance of ever being resurrected into eternal life then those people are destroyed forever. It says nothing about their spirit. You impose your own personal view on scripture and try to make it say what it doesn't and those who know scripture know the difference.

It certainly doesn't say their spirits are tormented alive forever. It says they are destroyed forever and it is only the stupid and the foolish who can't know or understand this. Which are you? Stupid or Foolish?