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Featured Annihilationism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Timothew, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

    26 vote(s)
    46.4%
  2. Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

    27 vote(s)
    48.2%
  3. Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%
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  1. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    Please post any Scripture passages that you think prove that Annihilationism is untrue in this thread.

    Let's discuss them. I have only one other request, please be polite when you post here, I've had a lot of bad experiences with people who think that God plans to have the unrepentant tortured alive in hell.

    What the heck, I think I'll add a poll.
     
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  2. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    I set up the poll so that anyone can change their vote after seeing the evidence.
     
  3. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    I will give one of the reasons that I believe that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture in hell.

    The Bible specifically states in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    That settles the question right there. There is no possibility that the wages of sin is to be tortured by God for all eternity.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It never says "God" tortures anybody.

    What is Hell, having a blowtorch to your hand
    or running over your little sister with a car?

    The word is "torment" and it's all you, not anyone else to blame.

    And the quiz answer is one or more.
    With God, all 3 answers are possible.
     
  5. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    Psalms 146:4
    His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

    Ezekiel 18:20

    "The soul who sins shall die..."

    Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
    For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

    John 11:11
    This He said, and after that He said to them,
    "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."

    Daniel 12:2

    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

    1 Thessalonians 4:13
    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

    1 Corinthians 15:51
    Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    ...He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

    Genesis 3:4
    The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

    Genesis 2:17

    "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
    This is the second death, the lake of fire.

     
  6. topcare

    topcare The Eucharist is Life

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  7. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    Malachi 4:1
    "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,"
    says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

    Psalms 37:20
    But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away.
     
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  8. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    Psalms 92:7
    That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

    Psalms 145:20
    The LORD keeps all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.
     
  9. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    I'm content to believe that the lake of fire is the second and final death. Where there is death there is no consciousness, as only living things are conscious.
     
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  10. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The problem is that we have texts pointing in both directions.

    This link gives a good review: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theologyintheraw/2015/02/biblical-support-for-annihilation/
    It notes 36 texts that use destruction, death, end, or disintegration. (Actually that’s only part of the list. There are more.) I note that this list mixes indications of conditional immortality with annihilation. They aren’t exactly the same, but I think both would read most of the texts the same way.

    However there are also texts that talk about eternal punishment, though sometimes (like the eternal worm) turn out not to look the same when you see the OT background (in that case Is 66). Most of the OT passages tend to be talking about God’s enemies being killed.

    And then there’s references to eternal destruction, which is mixed, e.g. 2 Thes 1:9. It could support either the idea that eternal punishment is called destruction or the idea that destruction can be referred to as eternal. The latter seems more plausible, since the former requires reading something into the text that isn’t there explicitly; of course that wouldn’t be the only case that’s necessary.

    What do you do in a situation like this? Most people pick one, and find a non-literal way to deal with the others.

    Surely we can understand destruction as a way of referring to eternal torment.

    In the other direction, eternal is often used of things that don’t last forever. To give a NT example, in Jude 1:7, angels are kept in eternal chains until the last judgment, and Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of eternal fire. Or Is 34:10, where the smoke of Edom’s punishment goes up forever.

    So there are possible non-literal readings in both directions. That means that people whose ideas are based upon Scripture have to make a judgement call, which equally good Christians have made in both ways. Admittedly it’s only pretty recently that there have been a substantial number of conservative Christians opting for eternal destruction, but there now are.

    I don’t feel strongly about choosing, though I think “destruction” looks a bit more plausible. But what I do feel strongly about is calling one or the other viewpoints heretical, at least if you’re committed to sola scriptura. I’m concerned that in many cases, people are simply reading ideas that they grew up with into Scripture without realizing it. It’s one thing to agree that one has to choose which texts to read literally and which not, and make a choice. It’s another thing entirely to claim that your reading takes them all literally, and that the other approach is ignoring Scripture.

    Alternatively they can say that maybe there’s a reason that Scripture uses so many metaphors. Maybe something is going on that we aren’t in a position to understand, and thus that any literal reading will be wrong. The one thing we do know, of course, is that we will be held accountable, and that if we’re found wanting, the results will be a disaster. Perhaps that’s enough.
     
  11. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    I think we must consider some other things as well... For example, the doctrine that people are eternally consciously tormented in fire is repulsive to many unbelievers and Christians alike, and it is a doctrine that Muhammad took to extreme lengths. I don't mean to suggest that repulsive things can't be true, as I myself firmly believed ECT, but what real issue do people have with annihilationism? I believe many are simply ignorant of what the scriptures have to say regarding death; we like to think of ourselves as eternal beings, but the OT very clearly teaches that man is mortal and death is REAL. I love my brothers and sisters who hold to ECT, but after much study I have found it (among other eschatological views) to be wanting as far as the full testimony of scripture goes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
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  12. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    This image helps a lot for me.. Look at the beliefs that these doctrines embrace on the sides of the triangle. Universalism, for example, allows for universal immortality and the end of evil/suffering, but it does not allow for a final and eternal punishment. ECT (traditionalism) allows for universal immortality and a final/eternal punishment, but evil and suffering will forever exist in the lake of fire. I believe Conditionalism is the true Biblical teaching because the Bible doesn't teach universal immortality, but it does teach a final judgement and the end of evil/suffering. Something to consider...
    helltriangle_med_detail.png
     
  13. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    Conditionalism is a better term than Annihilationism, but I wanted to keep it basic.
     
  14. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    Lol. I am quite surprised: as of right now there are 5 votes for Conditionalism, 2 for Universalism, and 0 for Traditionalism... Like, what? I suspected the opposite.
     
  15. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    Traditionalists don't come down here because their arguments get destroyed in this forum. This part of CF is like hell, no one wants to come here.
     
  16. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    You mean He has entities to do it for Him?
     
  17. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    I hope you don't mind me posting 2 videos about this:





    Eternal life is conditional.
    John 3:16 actually says it all.
     
  18. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    It's a crying shame that this is supposedly 'controversial Christian theology'.
    The traditional view makes many hate God to the bone.
    It is built on the un-Biblical assumption that a soul is immortal.

    The worm and the flame that will not die are the means by which the lost will be devoured.
     
  19. ClothedInGrace

    ClothedInGrace Soli Deo Gloria Supporter

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    Unfortunately people take their theology too far into the opposite end of the spectrum. We have three people who apparently believe the Bible teaches that every individual will be saved, even though I posted scriptures which say the wicked will be eternally destroyed. Universalism and any form of a Universal Atonement stem from a misunderstanding of the "all men," "world," and "all people" passages. They think "all men," "world," and "all people" mean every individual person who ever existed, when in reality it means all people around the world from every tribe, tongue, and nation, both Jew and Gentile as opposed to just Jews. Yes, salvation is for everyone, but not in the sense that everyone is saved.
     
  20. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    None the less, there are hints to 'universalism' in Scripture.
    And i personally hope EVERY human will be saved, albeit THROUGH the Fire perhaps.
    Let's not forget that there are many false teachers to blame, not necessarily the mislead.
    John 3:16
    God loved THE WORLD so much, not just believers.
    But the condition is belief in Christ though, in the same verse.


    You see, i hardly know any believers, i practically only know unbelievers (in real life).
    And why was Israel not allowed to cheer about the Egyptians deaths?
    "They are my children too" God said.
    I love the people in my community.
    But they're blind(ed), like i used to be.
    So i'm a conditionalist, but i hope for universalism to be true.
    Except obviously for those who really don't want to once they see.

    I don't know...
    But i believe God is good and loving and just.
    It seems to me that 'not getting it' in our puny 80 years on the timeline doesn't justify being destroyed.
    But i could be wrong.

    I have tried, when i found myself believing in the 'traditional' view, to see the Love of God, but i couldn't see it anymore.
    I hated God for it.
    A puny 80 years on the timeline and 'not getting it' just doesn't justify an eternal life in torture, forever, endlessly.
    It would be pointless too.
    And so, hating God for that would mean i would end up being tortured forever too, you see.
    So you can imagine the struggle i have had with the 'traditional' fallacy.

    I think people fail to realise what it would mean, to have a place somewhere where people you have known and loved (like God commanded !) but who didn't hear the Word, being tortured for ever, eternally, without an end or outcome, without a purpose, while the saved are in a good place with God, praising Him.

    Think about it.
     
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