Annihilationism

[Timothew]

Blatantly false accusation. That is why we can never have a reasonable discussion. Reread my post I clearly said that what God created He can destroy but you have yet to produce a proof text which says God will/did destroy souls in hell.



No tap dancing.

The destruction of the wicked will not occur until they are judged on the day that Peter calls "the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly". You know this, so it is disengenuous of you to claim that the wicked will never be destroyed just because they haven't already been destroyed. Your attitude is why you and I cannot have a reasonable discussion about what the Bible says.

 

[Timothew]

So how exactly does the Lake of Fire cause our spiritual death but not cause the spiritual death of the devil, the Beast, and the false prophet?
Did God make a built-in sensor for the Lake of Fire that detects human spirits and destroys them?

Yes, death of the body, as juxtaposed to eternal life of the body.

As opposed to being totally destroyed one time? Yes, I SEE and UNDERSTAND.

Yes because once an evildoer dies he can no longer do evil. People do evil and their Spirits suffer the repercussions of doing so by being eternally separated from God in torment. Matthew 25:46

I am one of those that the Jesus talks about in John 4:23-24, a true worshipper, not a fake one as shown in v22 like those who believe the spirit dies are.

Apparently it is hard for some who infer torture when it says torment. Let God be true and every man be a liar. That's what Paul says in Romans 3:4.

If you believe that the devil will not be destroyed, you are mistaken.

 

[Timothew]

I don't know why you can't read plain English, I said stop using the KJV not that it was the only one you used but in this case you used it conveniently because it's the only version that says soul.

You are confused. I can read plain English and it is plain that you are confused.
Here is Ezekiel 18:4 in two different translations. I shouldn't have to look this up FOR you, you should simply stop making false accusations:
ESV
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
NASB
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
I KNOW that "soul" (nepesh) means the person. This does not help your assertion that souls cannot die. People die. Those that reject God remain dead forever. Only those who put their faith in Christ will inherit eternal life.
Do not forget that we will be resurrected.

 

[Der Alte]

The destruction of the wicked will not occur until they are judged on the day that Peter calls "the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly". You know this, so it is disengenuous of you to claim that the wicked will never be destroyed just because they haven't already been destroyed. Your attitude is why you and I cannot have a reasonable discussion about what the Bible says.

Wrong again! Another post and another blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Here is my post again.

Blatantly false accusation. That is why we can never have a reasonable discussion. Reread my post I clearly said that what God created He can destroy but you have yet to produce a proof text which says God will/did destroy souls in hell.​

Please show me where I said or implied "the wicked will never be destroyed just because they haven't already been destroyed?"

 

[expos4ever]

On this business of "souls" and "the wages of sin is death":

1. I assert that 21st century western readers impose a specifically Greek concept of soul on the Bible that was never intended by the writer. Yes, the word "soul" is used all over the place in Scripture; however I suggest there are compelling reasons to be skeptical that the writer ever intended this term "soul" to denote an immaterial consciousness-bearing component of the human person that can survive the death of the body.

2. Those who believe in eternal torment often take a text like "the wages of sin is death" and rework it to read "the wages of sin is death of the body". Well, two problem with this come to mind:

(a) you need to justify this claim that even though Paul does not explicitly restrict his statement about death to the body, this is what he, in facts, intends. You cannot just arbitrarily limit the scope of applicability of death - you could just as easily interpret the text in other restrictive ways such as "the wages of sin is death of the hair follicles". In short, how do you know - without begging the very question at issue - that Paul is excluding the "soul" in this statement about death.

(b) even if you succeed in dealing with objection (a), you still have a big problem. You have Paul effectively saying this:

"For the wages of sin is death of the body,....."

See the problem? No clear thinker would make such a statement that entirely omits a statement about the wages of sin relative to the soul! If you take the eternal torment line, the overwhelming downside of sin is not death of the body, but the fact that your soul is then cast into a fiery hell for eternity! It is wildly implausible that Paul would identify death of the body as the wages of sin and not mention the eternity in hell-fire that awaits the soul!

That would be me like me saying: "The wages of eating cheeseburgers every day for years is intestinal gas from the cheese". As we all know, the real, substantial penalty for gorging on cheeseburgers are life-threatening illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

 

[hedrick]

I think it’s reasonable to ask just what “annihilation” means. Does it mean that nothing is left? The basic Biblical terms are destruction and second death. Certainly that ends any normal existence. But let me give you a suggestion from N T Wright:

“I don’t find any of these three traditional options completely satisfactory, but I think a somewhat different form of conditionalism may be the best we can do. We should of course always stress that the question of who shall eventually be saved is up to God and God alone, and that we can never say of anyone for certain, including Hitler and bin Laden, that they have gone so far down the road of wickedness that they are beyond redemption. I take it, however, that there are many who do continue down that road to the bitter end. How can we think wisely and biblically about their fate?”

“The central fact about humans in the Bible is that they bear the image of God (Genesis 1.26-8, etc.). … But they can only be maintained in his image, as genuine humans, by worshipping him; they depend on him for their life and character. The rest of creation, by contrast, is subject to decay and death. If we worship it, or some part of it, instead of the life-giving God, we are invoking death upon ourselves instead of life.

“This opens up a possibility: that a human being who continually and with settled intent worships that which is not God can ultimately cease completely to bear God’s image. Such a creature would become, in other words, ex-human: a creature that once bore the image of God but does so no longer, and can never do so again. Humans do, I believe, possess the freedom (some would say even the ‘right’, but I think that is difficult language at this point) to choose to worship creation rather than the creator. The God who made them and loves them grants them that freedom, even though they may misuse it. The New Testament indicates strongly that there are some, perhaps many, who go that route.”

Wright considers this a type of conditionalism. However I first ran into this by a book by a Catholic author, advocating a traditional view of hell. So the idea of eternal punishment and annihilation may in fact have some room for overlap. I would call what Wright describes destruction or second death.

 

[StanJ]

If you believe that the devil will not be destroyed, you are mistaken.

Then you don't understand what Revelation 20:10 says?
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Widlast]

I will give one of the reasons that I believe that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture in hell.

The Bible specifically states in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That settles the question right there. There is no possibility that the wages of sin is to be tortured by God for all eternity.

The "death" referred to here is separation from God, the source of life. It has nothing to do with a beings existence.
There are two deaths to be considered, physical death (of the body), which we all succumb to sooner or later, and spiritual death, which is permanent enmity between that being and God.

Scripture does not support annihilationism. It does however support eternal torment. Or did you miss the part about "their fire is not quenched and the worm dies not"?

 

[StanJ]

You are confused. I can read plain English and it is plain that you are confused.
Here is Ezekiel 18:4 in two different translations. I shouldn't have to look this up FOR you, you should simply stop making false accusations:
ESV
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
NASB
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
I KNOW that "soul" (nepesh) means the person. This does not help your assertion that souls cannot die. People die. Those that reject God remain dead forever. Only those who put their faith in Christ will inherit eternal life.
Do not forget that we will be resurrected.

You need to stop projecting your own insecurities on other people. Obviously if you say I did one thing when I didn't then you're the one that's confused.
Maybe the Expanded Bible will help you understand and not be so confused?
Every living thing [soul] belongs to me. The life [soul] of the parent [father] is mine, and the life [soul] of the child is mine. The person [soul] who sins is the one who will die.
Soul means ALL the following;
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortalsoul; and on the other from G2222, which is merevitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
Strong's
breaththe breath of lifethe vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1aof animals 1aof menlifethat in which there is lifea living being, a living soulthe soulthe seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting lifethe soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body) Thayer's

 

[Timothew]

Then you don't understand what Revelation 20:10 says?
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Thank you. I thought that you would answer that way.
This proves that Revelation 20:10 is talking about destruction and not eternal conscious torment.
Isaiah 14:12 says
"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!"
Right? Most commentators say that this is referring to the devil.
The whole passage speaks of the death of this person. How can he live forever?

Ezekiel says
"You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God"

The devil, right? Most commentators agree.

Ezekiel goes on to say
"So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.:

Immortal right? Wrong, reduced to ashes! Tormented alive forever in the lake of fire? No, CONSUMED by fire and reduced to ash.

Here's a hint for you if you will accept it. The Book of Revelation is written in a style called "Apocalyptic" and it rely heavily on the use of SYMBOLISM. Since the Bible says that the devil will be destroyed, the Apocalypse has to be read with this in mind.

No, please answer this question.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
"The wicked are doomed to destruction forever".

That is what I believe, and you should too. If the wicked are tormented alive forever in hell, then they have not been destroyed.

 

[Timothew]

The "death" referred to here is separation from God, the source of life. It has nothing to do with a beings existence.
There are two deaths to be considered, physical death (of the body), which we all succumb to sooner or later, and spiritual death, which is permanent enmity between that being and God.

Scripture does not support annihilationism. It does however support eternal torment. Or did you miss the part about "their fire is not quenched and the worm dies not"?

No, I did not miss it. Here is the context:
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Scripture does not support eternal conscious tormentism. It does however support the destruction of the wicked. Or did you miss the part about the dead bodies of those who rebelled against God.

IF scripture does not support the destruction of the wicked, then why does scripture say "The wicked will be destroyed forever"? Psalm 92:7

I'm sorry, but a plain reading of Scripture supports the destruction of the wicked.

 

[Timothew]

Wrong again! Another post and another blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Here is my post again.

Blatantly false accusation. That is why we can never have a reasonable discussion. Reread my post I clearly said that what God created He can destroy but you have yet to produce a proof text which says God will/did destroy souls in hell.​

Please show me where I said or implied "the wicked will never be destroyed just because they haven't already been destroyed?"

I gave you that passage. Matthew 10:28 clearly supports the doctrine that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The reason you and I can't have a reasonable discussion is because you are not being reasonable.
2 Peter 3:7 also says that the ungodly will be destroyed. I don't know why you are unable to see what is plainly written in Scripture. I don't know why you feel you must insult me for believing what Scripture says.

 

[Timothew]

You need to stop projecting your own insecurities on other people. Obviously if you say I did one thing when I didn't then you're the one that's confused.
Maybe the Expanded Bible will help you understand and not be so confused?
Every living thing [soul] belongs to me. The life [soul] of the parent [father] is mine, and the life [soul] of the child is mine. The person [soul] who sins is the one who will die.
Soul means ALL the following;
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortalsoul; and on the other from G2222, which is merevitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
Strong's
breaththe breath of lifethe vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1aof animals 1aof menlifethat in which there is lifea living being, a living soulthe soulthe seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting lifethe soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body) Thayer's

Dig yourself in a little deeper.

You claimed that that KJV was the only version that said that the soul who sins shall die, and I showed you two other versions that also said it. Why don't you stop insulting me for a second, calm down, listen and learn something?

You claimed that death in the Bible refers only to the body, I showed you a passage that says that the soul dies. Then you insulted me. Then you said that soul refers to the person. Okay, I agree, that refers to the person. So the person can actually die and not (merely) their body.

Just calm down, and let's discuss this rationally and biblically. You people who believe in eternal torment get so angry.

 

[expos4ever]

The "death" referred to here is separation from God, the source of life. It has nothing to do with a beings existence.

I politely suggest that although this is a standard "line" on what death means, it is, if you step back from it, a decidedly odd one. To take the word "death" with its normal "lights out and into the ground you go" meaning and make it mean "fully conscious existence away from God" is a truly remarkable deviation from the nominal meaning.

And that requires some pretty significant support. So what is your argument? On precisely what basis do we adopt this new meaning for the term "death"?

 

[Alithis]

Please post any Scripture passages that you think prove that Annihilationism is untrue in this thread.

Let's discuss them. I have only one other request, please be polite when you post here, I've had a lot of bad experiences with people who think that God plans to have the unrepentant tortured alive in hell.

What the heck, I think I'll add a poll.

the error is "attributing God with evil"like Jobs friends did
God can cast people into hell and be perfectly justified holy and Good by doing so .

to suggest that god will not cast into eternal fires where the worm does not die nor is the fire quenched would cause god to cease from being good is to accuse god is evil by declaring it in his word .. god is not evil
God is merciful god has made it so that NONE need go to such a doom .

you need to reflect on what eternal life is
jesus tells us ....
"and this is eternal life that they may KNOW you ...
thus it stands to reason that eternal death is not a ceasing of existence but an eternal estrangement from god .. to be cut off from all that is good and comfort and peace ...

 

[expos4ever]

There are two deaths to be considered, physical death (of the body), which we all succumb to sooner or later, and spiritual death, which is permanent enmity between that being and God.

I think this is something you have to impose on Scripture.

Scenario 1: You believe that "death" in Romans 6:23 is a reference to the death of the body only:

Do you not think it is odd that Paul would write that "the wages of sin is death" and really mean "the wages of sin is death of the body, yet eternal, living, conscious separation of the soul from God".

That makes no sense at all; for Paul to talk about how the wages of sin is death for the body and "forget" to mention the much more serious consequence of eternal torment of the soul is not something a sensible writer would do.

Scenario 2: You believe that "death" in Romans 6:23 refers to both body and soul, but that the term means different things for body and soul, respectively.

You then have the problem from my previous post - you need a very powerful case indeed to explain why Paul would take a concept like "death" - with its clear nominal "lights out" implications - and rework it to mean neverending life in a state of torment. Such a state of affairs is about as far away from the nominal meaning of "death" as one can imagine.

So it is really quite implausible that Paul uses the word "death" to denote never-ending life for the soul (in torment, but "alive" all the same).

 

[hedrick]

thus it stands to reason that eternal death is not a ceasing of existence but an eternal estrangement from god .. to be cut off from all that is good and comfort and peace ...

There's no question that death means alienation from God. But what is a person who is cut off from the source of life? In what sense are they alive? There's a general agreement that God is the sustainer of life. What if he doesn't? Does he sustain someone just enough that they can feel pain, so he can punish them?

I don't know whether they're literally nothing or not, but I don't think we should imagine people who are normal people with normal consciousness but with asbestos skin, being tortured. Wright's concept of something that's ex-human may be the right one. Or they may end up simply fading out of existence. I'm not sure that there's much difference, and I'm pretty sure that most of the Scripture passages didn't intend to tell us specifically. We're trying to read between the lines of horrifying images to get a kind of description that I don't think we're going to get.

 

[Alithis]

what awaits those who refuse to obey the gospel is plain enough .
what awaits those who obey the gospel is plain enough

it is an ulterior agenda that seeks to blur either .. the proverbial serpent i the garden who says ."did god really say "...
well this time we are not fooled . yes he DID SAY .

 

[Widlast]

No, I did not miss it. Here is the context:
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Scripture does not support eternal conscious tormentism. It does however support the destruction of the wicked. Or did you miss the part about the dead bodies of those who rebelled against God.

IF scripture does not support the destruction of the wicked, then why does scripture say "The wicked will be destroyed forever"? Psalm 92:7

I'm sorry, but a plain reading of Scripture supports the destruction of the wicked.

Dead bodies is not the issue. ALL BODIES end up dead.
The existence of the soul after physical death is the issue.

There is not one statement in all of scripture that points or alludes to the permanent destruction of beings.
That's why there is a Hell. That's where the bad ones go. That is what scripture says repeatedly.
Dancing around the issue or twisting scripture or the meanings of words to suit your own notions does not change anything.

 

[Widlast]

Revelation 14:11 pretty much sums up the reality of it all

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Same goes for all the damned.