Calvinism, explained.

[Thursday]

This is a lie.

Sorry. Not sorry.

10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[supersoldier71]

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.…" Luke 10:13-14

Jesus is speaking to unbelievers, and condemning two cities, right? That's the surface meaning, and it is correct. But read on: He knows exactly the actions that would have saved Tyre and Sidon, but He did not cause them to come to pass. He is sovereign in ALL things, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[supersoldier71]

10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Spoken OBVIOUSLY to believers: Christians. Non-believers obviously cannot keep Christ's commandments.

 

[Thursday]

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.…" Luke 10:13-14

Jesus is speaking to unbelievers, and condemning two cities, right? That's the surface meaning, and it is correct. But read on: He knows exactly the actions that would have saved Tyre and Sidon, but He did not cause them to come to pass. He is sovereign in ALL things, whether you acknowledge it or not.

He is sovereign, and in his sovereign will he has chosen to let us choose our path.

He allows us to refuse him:

Luke 13:34

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

 

[Thursday]

Spoken OBVIOUSLY to believers: Christians. Non-believers obviously cannot keep Christ's commandments.

You are avoiding the point. Keeping God's commands is what keeps us in the love of Jesus.

What if we don't remain in the love of Jesus?

6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned

 

[supersoldier71]

You are avoiding the point. Keeping God's commands is what keeps us in the love of Jesus.

What if we don't remain in the love of Jesus?

6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned

No point to avoid. Your reading is incorrect.

You can find NO passages of Scripture spoken to unbelievers that support your argument.

Nor can you define "elect" within your faulty theology.

Your faulty and specious "theology" has to contort itself with all manner of intellectual, linguistic and theological gymnastics to reconcile the God-breathed Scripture with the lie that salvation comes by any means other than the monergistic work of God Himself. You cannot reconcile the plain truth, plain language truth as revealed in Scripture with a lie.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…"

Good night and God bless!

 

[Thursday]

No point to avoid. Your reading is incorrect.

You can find NO passages of Scripture spoken to unbelievers that support your argument.

I'm not talking about unbelievers.

The bible is clear that believers can shipwreck their faith through sin. The bible is clear that believers must endure in order to be saved.

Why did Paul right this?

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

[tulipbee]

God wants all men to be saved. Those who cooperate with his grace will be saved.

Well then, I guess all men will be saved. This is bad logic, and not Scriptural.
He indeed offers it to every man -BUT- no man "accepts" it! (John 1:9-13) More then that,
no man seeks God (Romans 3:11; Psalm 14:2). ALL men are spitually ~dead~ in sin. (Eph.
2:1-3) and can not just decide to live.
Calvinism is the religion of the ultra-forgiven! Sola gratia.

 

[Thursday]

Well then, I guess all men will be saved. This is bad logic, and not Scriptural.

Actually, it is scriptural.

You'll have to take up the logic with God.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

 

[supersoldier71]

I'm not talking about unbelievers.

The bible is clear that believers can shipwreck their faith through sin. The bible is clear that believers must endure in order to be saved.

Why did Paul right this?

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The Bible is clear that Jesus has been given the authority to save and that He never fails.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30 (bolded text added).

I cannot even snatch myself out of the Father's hand, because I am not more powerful than God.

The work of the Holy Spirit can be quenched by sin, but only as it pertains to sanctification. Believers most definitely still suffer consequences when we sin, we have not been absolved from that. We have been freed from Hell!

The idea that we may lose grace hinges upon the (incorrect) idea that there is some sin which we will commit that Jesus was unaware of.

Which is plainly ludicrous.

Good night for now.

I'm deployed overseas and I've got some "deployed overseas" stuff to do.

God bless you all!

 

[Thursday]

The Bible is clear that Jesus has been given the authority to save and that He never fails.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30 (bolded text added).

I cannot even snatch myself out of the Father's hand, because I am not more powerful than God.

The work of the Holy Spirit can be quenched by sin, but only as it pertains to sanctification. Believers most definitely still suffer consequences when we sin, we have not been absolved from that. We have been freed from Hell!

The idea that we may lose grace hinges upon the (incorrect) idea that there is some sin which we will commit that Jesus was unaware of.

Which is plainly ludicrous.

Good night for now.

I'm deployed overseas and I've got some "deployed overseas" stuff to do.

God bless you all!

Just because no one can snatch you from Jesus doesn't mean he won't let you walk away.

Only those who endure will be saved.

Who must endure?

 

[supersoldier71]

Just because no one can snatch you from Jesus doesn't mean he won't let you walk away.

Only those who endure will be saved.

Who must endure?

Bad question: who will endure.

The elect!

Easy.

 

[Thursday]

Bad question: who will endure.

The elect!

Easy.

Exactly.

Those who ENDURE will be saved.

NOT: those who are saved will endure.

 

[supersoldier71]

Actually, it is scriptural.

You'll have to take up the logic with God.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Exactly.

Those who ENDURE will be saved.

NOT: those who are saved will endure.

INCORRECT.

Not even Scriptural.

Doesn't explain who the "elect" are and how they came to be elected.

Do try again though.

 

[Thursday]

INCORRECT.

Not even Scriptural.

Doesn't explain who the "elect" are and how they came to be elected.

Do try again though.

It is scriptural. Your dogma is not. Your dogma came from the mind of John Calvin.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Galatians 6:9
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

 

[Albion]

In all of the times this issue has been debated, I just haven't been able to get beyond the Bible's teaching that some are secure in their election. Maybe they are few in number, and of course we who are observers of other people's lives cannot tell for certain who's who merely by looking at them, but they are referred to, so that's an unavoidable item to me.

 

[Thursday]

In all of the times this issue has been debated, I just haven't been able to get beyond the Bible's teaching that some are secure in their election. Maybe they are few in number, and of course we who are observers of other people's lives cannot tell for certain who's who merely by looking at them, but they are referred to, so that's an unavoidable item to me.

The bible teaches that we must endure to be saved.

The bible is full of warnings against falling away.

Why are those warnings there if there is no possibility of losing our salvation?

 

[Albion]

The bible teaches that we must endure to be saved.

And I fully accept that those who do endure will be saved. The elect are going to do that. The others won't necessarily do that and, of course, will be lost.

The bible is full of warnings against falling away.

Sure. Falling away will mean no salvation. I hardly see anything about this to argue over.

 

[Thursday]

And I fully accept that those who do endure will be saved. The elect are going to do that. The others won't necessarily do that and, of course, will be lost.


Sure. Falling away will mean no salvation. I hardly see anything about this to argue over.

Calvinists claim that they cannot fall away if they are "elect".

They have the cart before the horse.

Jesus said that those who endure will be saved, not that those who are saved will endure.

 

[Albion]

Calvinists claim that they cannot fall away if they are "elect".

Right.

Jesus said that those who endure will be saved, not that those who are saved will endure.

Absolutely. The Elect will endure. And they will be saved.

This is not a problem, although it sounds like you are reading something into the words of the Bible that you want to find there or have been taught is to be found there. We all have to guard against doing that, consciously or unconsciously, whatever the particular doctrine might be.