Calvinism, explained.

[Thursday]

Right.


Absolutely. The Elect will endure. And they will be saved.

This is not a problem, although it sounds like you are reading something into the words of the Bible that you want to find there or have been taught is to be found there. We all have to guard against doing that, consciously or unconsciously, whatever the particular doctrine might be.

The elect are those who endure.

Calvinists incorrectly teach that those who are elect will endure.

They reverse the process.

Calvinism leads to two potential dangerous outcomes: Presumption or Despair

 

[supersoldier71]

Calvinists claim that they cannot fall away if they are "elect".

They have the cart before the horse.

Jesus said that those who endure will be saved, not that those who are saved will endure.

Who then are the "elect"; those elected by the grace of God, through no act of their own?

You believe in a works-based salvation: I must keep doing this or that to be saved. The Bible tells us that I keep working because am saved.

"In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened...."

 

[Thursday]

Who then are the "elect"; those elected by the grace of God, through no act of their own?

You believe in a works-based salvation: I must keep doing this or that to be saved. The Bible tells us that I keep working because am saved.

"In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened...."

God wants all men to be saved, but he won't force us to follow his will.

 

[supersoldier71]

God wants all men to be saved, but he won't force us to follow his will.

Also untrue. By your rationale, everyone is now spiritually alive. This is not Biblical. If they're not spiritually alive, then they cannot respond to spiritual things. If they are spiritually alive, then they will respond.

It's really very simple. Jesus' sheep know His voice:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand..."

You keep saying that someone--anyone---can take Jesus' sheep from Him, or that we can even choose to reject His authority.

Not true. Even those who will perish in hell will acknowledge Him.

I'd really recommend disassociating yourself from the poisonous ideology that has clouded your understanding of the ABSOLUTE power of God.

You argue that God's wishes can be confounded by men?

You argue that the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, reigning in Heaven in His glory, is somehow begging and hoping for people to acknowledge Him as King?

Please.

He's King and worthy of all praise whether you know it or not, and He has never, nor will He ever, beg and plead with His creatures to love and acknowledge Him.

To even think that is beyond silly.

Do try harder next time to give an argument that's not insulting to the person and position of Christ the King.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It doesn't demand perfection, but it does demand that we strive for holiness and that we confess our sins.

Salvation is not a one time event, it is a process that we must see to the end.

You should review Romans 5 and 6

 

[ToBeLoved]

Also untrue. By your rationale, everyone is now spiritually alive. This is not Biblical. If they're not spiritually alive, then they cannot respond to spiritual things. If they are spiritually alive, then they will respond.

It's really very simple. Jesus' sheep know His voice:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand..."

You keep saying that someone--anyone---can take Jesus' sheep from Him, or that we can even choose to reject His authority.

Not true. Even those who will perish in hell will acknowledge Him.

I'd really recommend disassociating yourself from the poisonous ideology that has clouded your understanding of the ABSOLUTE power of God.

You argue that God's wishes can be confounded by men?

You argue that the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, reigning in Heaven in His glory, is somehow begging and hoping for people to acknowledge Him as King?

Please.

He's King and worthy of all praise whether you know it or not, and He has never, nor will He ever, beg and plead with His creatures to love and acknowledge Him.

To even think that is beyond silly.

Do try harder next time to give an argument that's not insulting to the person and position of Christ the King.

I think you confuse worshipping Christ with Calvinism.


Two very different things in no way dependent on each other.

 

[Thursday]

Also untrue.

Start with the basics then work your way out of your hole!

1 Tim 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

 

[Thursday]

You should review Romans 5 and 6

Why?

Does that change the fact that we must endure until the end, or that we must press on for the prize, or that we might lose our faith through sin?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why?

Does that change the fact that we must endure until the end, or that we must press on for the prize, or that we might lose our faith through sin?

If you do not know why. All the more reason to find out.

 

[supersoldier71]

I think you confuse worshipping Christ with Calvinism.


Two very different things in no way dependent on each other.

FWIW, my theology is Reformed, but I don't claim to be a Calvinist. I claim and proclaim Christ and Him crucified.

I believe in the sovereignty of God and God alone in ALL things.

That is all.

 

[tulipbee]

The elect are those who endure.

Calvinists incorrectly teach that those who are elect will endure.

They reverse the process.

Calvinism leads to two potential dangerous outcomes: Presumption or Despair

God doesn't need to reverse

 

[Albion]

The elect are those who endure.

No, that turns the term upside down and makes the elect those who have earned their salvation rather than having been the elect.

Calvinism leads to two potential dangerous outcomes: Presumption or Despair

That may be how it would be for you. Many Calvinists, however, say that it leads to a resolution of all of that; and that it's the churches which teach that you can slip up at any moment and be forever lost regardless of what you've done in the whole of the rest of your life which are the ones instilling uncertainty and, perhaps, despair. I tend to agree with this.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, that turns the term upside down and makes the elect those who have earned their salvation rather than having been the elect.


That may be how it would be for you. Many Calvinists, however, say that it leads to a resolution of all of that; and that it's the churches which teach that you can slip up at any moment and be forever lost regardless of what you've done in the whole of the rest of your life which are the ones instilling uncertainty and, perhaps, despair. I tend to agree with this.

If they consider you the elect its good news. If not, your in your way to hell. No happiness in that second outcome, so I disagree.

Maybe you don't see the flip side of it.

And it's clear they teach only God elects.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That's a lot of words meant to negate the crystal clear words of scripture.

"A man reaps what he sows" is a warning.

Here's another:

1 Cor 6:9
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Have you never be taught to read scripture in context? SuperSoldier is correct. Paul was writing to believers.

Paul did not write directly to you (or me), so we must read as people who are third parties, in a way. His words have application for our lives, but they are not addressed to us. I've never been a member of the church in Galatia. Have you?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We should look to Christ as the objective basis for assurance, not ourselves. To look to ourselves produces doubt and detracts from the saving work of Christ.

Well said. Pithy.

 

[Albion]

If they consider you the elect its good news.

It's still a guess. Only God knows.

Maybe you don't see the flip side of it.

No, I think it's you who has misunderstood...

And it's clear they teach only God elects.

...and now I'm sure of it.

Allow me to explain further. The Catholic/works righteousness/Freewill POV that many people were raised on teaches that you will be saved if you have Faith AND die in the "State of Grace." If you're a Christian but die with an unforgiven mortal sin on your soul, you are off to Hell, and that's because a mortal sin--which the churches teach that any of us can commit, even after being baptized, born again, or accepting Christ by Faith (whichever way you want to word that)--puts you OUT of the State of Grace.

To be sure, you can go to sacramental Confession, confess your sins to the priest, and be absolved. You'd be back in the State of Grace then. It's also allowed as how you can make a private act of contrition and be forgiven by God, even if you don't get to Confession in time.

But if you give in to temptation, commit a mortal sin, and die of a massive heart attack or by being run over by a truck as you're crossing the road--and haven't gone to Confession yet or made a private confession to God because of your sin--you're lost.

If THIS does not create a lifelong sense of uncertainty, it's because you've simply put it out of your mind, the way many "Freewill" folks do.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm deployed overseas and I've got some "deployed overseas" stuff to do.

God bless you all!

I wish you safety, and offer my deepest gratitude for your service.

 

[Aldebaran]

Calvinism leads to two potential dangerous outcomes: Presumption or Despair

When I was first going to bible study and learning about the things of God, I came across a group of Calvanists (didn't even know what that meant at the time), and they led me down the road to despair because I had questions about salvation. They presumed that if I didn't know whether or not I was saved, then I must not be one of the chosen elect. So they basically shunned me and I felt hopeless for the longest time. The ones who did the presuming to be among the elect were quite arrogant in their attitude. I just can't believe this to be the outcome Christ wanted for people when He died for our sins.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

When I was first going to bible study and learning about the things of God, I came across a group of Calvanists (didn't even know what that meant at the time), and they led me down the road to despair because I had questions about salvation. They presumed that if I didn't know whether or not I was saved, then I must not be one of the chosen elect. So they basically shunned me and I felt hopeless for the longest time. The ones who did the presuming to be among the elect were quite arrogant in their attitude. I just can't believe this to be the outcome Christ wanted for people when He died for our sins.

Just as in all things, there is a spectrum. Calvinists are not all the same, and this Calvinist (me) condemns the kind of stupidity that you had to deal with.

There are folks who are, "hyper Calvinists", and that may have been what you were dealing with. . .

 

[Albion]

When I was first going to bible study and learning about the things of God, I came across a group of Calvanists (didn't even know what that meant at the time), and they led me down the road to despair because I had questions about salvation. They presumed that if I didn't know whether or not I was saved, then I must not be one of the chosen elect.

There are poorly educated people in all denominations.

What "Calvinism" itself teaches or instills in us, however, is something else.

So they basically shunned me and I felt hopeless for the longest time. The ones who did the presuming to be among the elect were quite arrogant in their attitude. I just can't believe this to be the outcome Christ wanted for people when He died for our sins.

It's not.