Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Status
Not open for further replies.

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
The answer is clear. There is only one Gospel, just as Paul said in Galatians chapter 1.

The Gospel preached by Paul is the same Gospel preached by Peter and the other Apostles, otherwise Paul would have been cursing Peter and the others.
It was Peter who preached the Gospel to the Gentiles, first. He could not have been preaching a different Gospel.

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation from this point until the end of time.
It is the same Gospel.

There is no Plan B.

Same covenant, same Gospel, which is the Good News of the New Blood Covenant.
You cannot separate the two.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV



Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Rev_12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(How can anyone say it has nothing to do with the blood of Jesus?)


Rev_14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

.
Are you really that naive? It all goes back to dispensations. It seems you think Adam should obey all of Moses law and the New Testament saints can eat from every tree but one! Did you never get the intent of Paul in Galatians 3?

The "gospel" means GOOD NEWS. For Adam the good news was that He could eat of every tree but one.
For those following Moses' law it was good news that their sins could be covered. For those in the New covenant it is VERY GOOD news that our sins are forgotten and forgiven. For those in the time of judgment, the 70th week of Daniel, it is good news there is ANY DOOR Open where they could be saved. For them the good news is, all they have to do is WORSHIP GOD and give glory to Him. "Father God, we give you glory: you even have power over the sun, to crank up the heat!"

Good point in Rev 12:11. But this is specifically speaking of those who are born again. What of those who at this time had never heard the gospel? For them the gospel will be ONLY what the Angel tells them: WORSHIP GOD. That will be all that God requires of them at that time.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Why do the Greek words for "first" "resurrection" matter to you? I can see them but I can't copy them. "He prote" - first - adjective, nominative, singular, feminine" "anastasis" - resurrection - noun, nominative, singular, feminine

I realize there are only two resurrections and I said that so what's your point? The first resurrection is after the Tribulation and the second resurrection is after the Millennium. (It's possible for Christians to be in the second resurrection since it's possible for them to die during the millennium, but there are only two eternal destinies--Heaven or the Lake of Fire).

Jesus is the first fruits of those who will be raised to eternal life. Definitely the first resurrection are raised to eternal life. But, there's a possibility some Christians will be in the second resurrection, too.

OF COURSE the meaning of the Greek is important! That is the language much of the New Testament was written in. I am trying to tell you that the Greek behind the word "first" is not a TIMING issue, it is a priority issue. This same word was translate CHIEF several times. So read that with chief in it:

4. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the chief or most honorable resurrection.


It cannot mean first as in a sequence, because Jesus was a part of this chief or most honorable resurrection. As I said before, since there are only TWO resurrections, Jesus MUST BE the firstfruits of one of the two. Will you assign his resurrecton to the resurrection of the sinner? I think not!

The first resurrection is after the Tribulation and the second resurrection is after the Millennium.

No, you are mistaken. Of course PART of it will after, as in those beheaded. The first or primary or most honorable resurrection began with JESUS as the firstfruits. You only THINK it started after the tribulation. It is written there, but that is certainly NOT where it started. Did you know that the 144,000 are also a part of this resurrection? ALL righteous were, are and will be a part of this most honorable of resurrections. And certainly those that lost their head also will be. So PLEASE quit thinking TIMING and think either honorable or not honorable. How do you suppose those seen seating upon throne judging got there? What resurrection did they come from?

Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word Protos:
  1. first in time or place
    1. in any succession of things or persons
  2. first in rank
    1. influence, honour
    2. chief
    3. principal
  3. first, at the first
So a real and true meaning CAN BE "first in rank or influence or honor: chief or principle." Strongs also has "most important." This is the intended meaning in Rev. 20. It is the MOST IMPORTANT resurrection.

Of course it can also be first in timing, but this is NOT the meaning for Rev. 20.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
It's interesting you chose this verse (Revelation 1:7) about every eye seeing Him and wailing because of Him.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This gathering of the elect is at the end of the Tribulation, not before. Everyone on earth will know when He appears in the clouds. It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation. The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation.

Yes, there will be a gathering of the elect after the tribulation, but it will probably be for the sheep and goat judgment at that time.

For timing on the rapture, we must look at Paul's writing for he was the only writer to received revelation on it. Study 1 thes. 5 and discover that Paul's rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY and the start of His wrath. That fits ONLY at the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need?

It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation.

OF COURSE It is: God has given us an escape. Of course, if you don't wish to take it, I believe He will allow you to witness His wrath first hand. Just know that you will be overcome.

The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation

This most honorable of resurrections will also include Jesus' resurrection, the pretrib raptured church's resurrection, the resurrection of the 144,000 and finally those beheaded.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17


These passage only work with a pre-trib rapture...

1. As in the days of Noah - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
2. As in the days of Lot - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Douggg, I believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, unquestioned, until I was 16 or 17 years old. Then I read Luke 17 and this time I wasn't satisfied with not understanding Luke 17:37 "Where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather". I thought the previous verses were about the rapture (one taken, the other left) but verse 37 didn't make sense in that context ("Why would Christians' bodies be eaten by vultures? Isn't that dishonorable? And why would bodies be left? Doesn't it say, "We will not all die, but we will all be changed?"). I prayed for God to grant me understanding of what Jesus meant when He said that. Then I learned this statement was also in Matthew 24. By studying them closely side by side, I realized the true identity of the taken.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came. So the taken in the context of Jesus' return are the wicked who are destroyed at His coming.

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Now I understand Jesus was plainly saying they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages (Luke 17 and Matthew 24) do not predict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--and Jesus does give the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone (Luke 17:24, Matthew 24:17) and,
2) Wicked people will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.
(See Revelation 19:17-18,21.)

So then I said, "The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church isn't here. So, where is it?" And I went off on a search of the Scriptures until I became convinced the Scriptures testify to a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Rapture of the Church. I can't believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture even if I wanted to. It's simply not biblical. Not only does it not appear, but many verses squash the theory in all its facets. People either have to either ignore the clear teaching of the Bible or not read it and trust the teachers that they are telling the truth. This is not the time to be implicitly trusting teachers.

Jesus repeatedly and earnestly warned His followers that many people would be deceived.

Matthew 24:4-6, 11, 23-26
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many...
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many...
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

This chapter is all about the Tribulation. In fact, verse 21-22, before Jesus' three warnings about the deception of false returns says:

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

I want you to see this: why would people be looking for Jesus in the middle of the Tribulation unless there hadn't been a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Why would Jesus spend so much breath warning the Church about deceptions if the Church was going to leave the earth before the Tribulation even started?

I'm human and I prefer comfort as much as anyone. But God specifically warns against putting self-preservation higher than Him. And God's ways are not our ways. He's chiefly concerned about the salvation of souls and the sanctification of the Church (being made by the Holy Spirit to increasingly reflect Christ). Jesus faced tribulation and suffering and we do, too.

Luke 17:31-33
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Matthew 10:34-29
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 16:24-26
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:34-38
34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 12:23-26
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Luke 9:23-26
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Jesus includes six times in the four gospels. It is important! Not all Christians become martyrs, but Jesus wants Christians to be willing to give up their lives if it is demanded of them.

Are we any different than the Christians who are now being beheaded or otherwise executed by ISIS? Jesus didn't rapture them before ISIS took control. The world keeps hearing of Christians submitting to execution rather than renouncing their faith in Jesus and converting to Islam. Their blood testifies to the world over and over again that Christians consider Jesus to be worth more than preserving their physical lives.

For the sake of your soul, please earnestly seek the truth and don't assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation comes. Perhaps you are thinking, well, if I am wrong, I'll know when the Tribulation starts and then I'll change my mind. Maybe not. There would be all those people who will attempt to deceive you with false christs and false returns of christ. Perhaps you will deceive yourself, "I am here, so this is not the Tribulation and this is not the mark of the beast." (Taking the mark of the beast amounts to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because it is unforgivable.) Perhaps you will be so mad at God because He is allowing you to live among the wickedness and despair that you will consider Him unfaithful and you will no longer believe.

The ten virgins of Matthew 24 were all looking for the bridegroom (all professed Christians), but the foolish virgins didn't have enough oil. Oil commonly stands for the Holy Spirit. They assumed he would come by a certain time before they ran out of oil, but he came "late". (The wise virgins, by contrast, had extra oil for themselves because they had planned for his "late" arrival.) The foolish virgins aren't able to endure. Probably they commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unless they are deceived and never had the Holy Spirit) because they are unprepared for the deception and severe trials of the Tribulation. Once the bridegroom comes, the door is permanently shut. When the five foolish virgins come to it, the bridegroom will not open it to them. Don't be a foolish virgin! Be an overcomer!

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Where in any of those passages you reference does it say the living are changed from corruptible to incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye? My question is not intended to ask you to prove the post trib rapture, nor the pre trib rapture.

What I am saying to you is progressive revelation is what gives clarity to the end times scenario. You are not considering the nature of progressive revelation in regards to the four gospels what Jesus said in those.

The issue of whether them who believe in a pre-trib rapture will not be able to cope should it not happen that way - is someone's personal opinion, i.e. made up thinking, which in fact looks down lowly at your fellow Christians... without merit. You don't know how people will react. The bible doesn't say anything about disappointment in the timing of the rapture will lead anyone to be deceived. Just drop that line because it doesn't come across very well, and certainly is not going to cause anyone to change from pre-trib to something else. Mostly, what you are saying is for post-trib consumption as lame reasoning to justify the post trib view.

The foolish virgins are them who are not praying, looking up, hopeful for the rapture to happen - which could take place anytime between now and when it does. The door that will be closed is the dimensional portal, that Jesus will come through into the second heaven with the souls of them who's bodies sleep, to call the dead out of the graves; then to translate the living; and then to take them as one body back to heaven, though the dimensional portal and that door will be closed... while the earth goes through the great tribulation. Post trib is going to look awfully foolish on that day. I suggest changing to anytime rapture view.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
If the rapture were anything but pre-trib there would have been no need for the Lord to utter these words...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This is only your opinion, and there's no Scriptural basis for it. Test the Word and see if you can't find it. Just because you want to believe a pre-tribulation rapture is possible doesn't necessitate Scriptural possibility. "Anything is possible with God" does not include violating any piece of God's character or God's written word.

You are just simply wrong. There is nothing in the bible that prevents the possibility that the rapture could happen pre-trib, or perhaps pre-70th, or even tomorrow. It could possibly happen at another time. The rapture could take place anytime between now, as we speak, and when it actually does.

The parable of the ten virgins is to be ready. Not to be ready for a post trib, nor pre-trib, nor pre-70th week rapture. But to be ready, praying, looking up, hopeful for it, that it could happen anytime.

The first resurrection occurs in Revelation 20:4-6. Specifically, it includes the beheaded from the Tribulation who are killed because of their witness to Jesus and because of the Word of God, and these beheaded did not take the mark of the beast. All these details are there. If the first resurrection includes them who die in the Tribulation, then that clearly follows that there is no resurrection prior to the Tribulation. God created logic and there's nothing wrong with using it. It's especially appropriate for us as Christians, since we worship the Creator God who made everything good originally. We don't serve the "god" of naturalism/evolution--how would we be sure we evolved properly and that anyone's brain is capable of having a right understanding of anything?

Well, you are modifying the verses - they don't say "includes". You are inserting a general resurrection of all down through history as having died in Christ to be resurrected that time at the beginning of the millenium. Plus those verses don't say anything about the changing of the living happening - which is the actual rapture.

You are also using bad logic, hanging your view on the term "first resurrection" - but you do so out of context. It is the first resurrection of the millenium. Not that it is the absolute first.

In similitude, the first trumpet in Revelation 8 is not the first trumpet ever sounded. But the first of those seven trumpet
judgements.

You say you have gone from pre-trib to post. Why not make the next change to a better view - that is to the anytime rapture view? You can still maintain your leaning to the post trib position, but the anytime rapture view is not dependent upon us being right reasoning wise, but about us being right with God behavior wise. The anytime rapture view focuses on us praying, looking up, always hopeful for the rapture, that it can happen anytime between right this second until it actually happens.

Taking the hard line post trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-70th week, doesn't leave any room that we could be wrong. With the anytime rapture view, it is impossible to be wrong, if a person follows the principles.

Step back for a second from the big arguments between pre-trib and post-trib. Who is the actual enemy? Is it the post-tribbers? Or the pre-tribbers? No, the actual enemy is Satan. That's who wants us to miss out on the rapture.

So with that in mind, and considering the unlikelyhood of people changing their pre-trib or post-trib positions - to win the battle against Satan, the anytime rapture view makes it possible for my fellow Christians to be ready, regardless of the post-trib or pre-trib "reasoning", by focusing on our behavior, to be praying, looking up, hopeful for the rapture to take place anytime between now and when it actually does.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good point in Rev 12:11. But this is specifically speaking of those who are born again. What of those who at this time had never heard the gospel? For them the gospel will be ONLY what the Angel tells them: WORSHIP GOD. That will be all that God requires of them at that time.

What you are claiming makes no sense...

If there are those there who are "born again", they will be sharing their faith with those who have not heard it.
Do you think their vocal cords are going to disappear, so they cannot speak?

It also proves the age of "Grace" is still present in Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:11 is one example of many where what you say does not match up with what is written in God's Word, but you continue to march forward down the same path anyway...
.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Douggg, I believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, unquestioned, until I was 16 or 17 years old. Then I read Luke 17 and this time I wasn't satisfied with not understanding Luke 17:37 "Where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather". I thought the previous verses were about the rapture (one taken, the other left) but verse 37 didn't make sense in that context ("Why would Christians' bodies be eaten by vultures? Isn't that dishonorable? And why would bodies be left? Doesn't it say, "We will not all die, but we will all be changed?"). I prayed for God to grant me understanding of what Jesus meant when He said that. Then I learned this statement was also in Matthew 24. By studying them closely side by side, I realized the true identity of the taken.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came. So the taken in the context of Jesus' return are the wicked who are destroyed at His coming.

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Now I understand Jesus was plainly saying they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages (Luke 17 and Matthew 24) do not predict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--and Jesus does give the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone (Luke 17:24, Matthew 24:17) and,
2) Wicked people will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.
(See Revelation 19:17-18,21.)

So then I said, "The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church isn't here. So, where is it?" And I went off on a search of the Scriptures until I became convinced the Scriptures testify to a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Rapture of the Church. I can't believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture even if I wanted to. It's simply not biblical. Not only does it not appear, but many verses squash the theory in all its facets. People either have to either ignore the clear teaching of the Bible or not read it and trust the teachers that they are telling the truth. This is not the time to be implicitly trusting teachers.

Jesus repeatedly and earnestly warned His followers that many people would be deceived.

Matthew 24:4-6, 11, 23-26
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many...
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many...
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

This chapter is all about the Tribulation. In fact, verse 21-22, before Jesus' three warnings about the deception of false returns says:

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

I want you to see this: why would people be looking for Jesus in the middle of the Tribulation unless there hadn't been a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Why would Jesus spend so much breath warning the Church about deceptions if the Church was going to leave the earth before the Tribulation even started?

I'm human and I prefer comfort as much as anyone. But God specifically warns against putting self-preservation higher than Him. And God's ways are not our ways. He's chiefly concerned about the salvation of souls and the sanctification of the Church (being made by the Holy Spirit to increasingly reflect Christ). Jesus faced tribulation and suffering and we do, too.

Luke 17:31-33
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Matthew 10:34-29
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 16:24-26
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:34-38
34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 12:23-26
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Luke 9:23-26
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Jesus includes six times in the four gospels. It is important! Not all Christians become martyrs, but Jesus wants Christians to be willing to give up their lives if it is demanded of them.

Are we any different than the Christians who are now being beheaded or otherwise executed by ISIS? Jesus didn't rapture them before ISIS took control. The world keeps hearing of Christians submitting to execution rather than renouncing their faith in Jesus and converting to Islam. Their blood testifies to the world over and over again that Christians consider Jesus to be worth more than preserving their physical lives.

For the sake of your soul, please earnestly seek the truth and don't assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation comes. Perhaps you are thinking, well, if I am wrong, I'll know when the Tribulation starts and then I'll change my mind. Maybe not. There would be all those people who will attempt to deceive you with false christs and false returns of christ. Perhaps you will deceive yourself, "I am here, so this is not the Tribulation and this is not the mark of the beast." (Taking the mark of the beast amounts to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because it is unforgivable.) Perhaps you will be so mad at God because He is allowing you to live among the wickedness and despair that you will consider Him unfaithful and you will no longer believe.

The ten virgins of Matthew 24 were all looking for the bridegroom (all professed Christians), but the foolish virgins didn't have enough oil. Oil commonly stands for the Holy Spirit. They assumed he would come by a certain time before they ran out of oil, but he came "late". (The wise virgins, by contrast, had extra oil for themselves because they had planned for his "late" arrival.) The foolish virgins aren't able to endure. Probably they commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unless they are deceived and never had the Holy Spirit) because they are unprepared for the deception and severe trials of the Tribulation. Once the bridegroom comes, the door is permanently shut. When the five foolish virgins come to it, the bridegroom will not open it to them. Don't be a foolish virgin! Be an overcomer!

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

MANY people used to believe in a pretrib rapture, but talked themselves out of it. That does not mean then went from false doctrine to true doctrine. Just the reverse is true. God is pretrib. He will come pretrib for His saints.

What you are missing is that the gospels are not a part of the church. That was OLD Covenant and the NEW did not come until after Jesus rose from the dead. Then, it was God's plan that Israel as a nation would accept Him as their Messiah and then the JEWS would take the gospel to the world. Obviously that did not happen. God gave them a few years to repent, but they did not, so God turned to the Gentiles.

Matthew 21
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Jewish church, of which the Disciples were a part, disappeared. God sent Paul to the Gentiles to "bring forth the fruits thereof."

Therefore, much of what you are using to prove a posttrib rapture has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today or the rapture of said church. For that we must study Paul, for He was given the revelation of the rapture. You can't find the timing of the rapture in the Gospels for it is simply not there, except perhaps in a parable.

Next, when Jesus mentioned Noah and Lot, His PURPOSE there was only about the SUDDENNESS of their destruction. If you doubt this, look at the preposition "for." Jesus TELLS us what His meaning was, WHY He brought up Noah and Lot.

In both cases they got up one morning thinking life would be just like all mornings before that one, and life would go on. But in truth, they never lived to see another day. THAT was the point Jesus was making. Paul added to this thought by telling us His coming for the pretrib rapture would come in a time of peace and safety. Those in Noah's day had NO IDEA that morning would be their last morning. Same with Lot. They were LIVING in "peace and safety."

Now, how do you propose to find a time of "peace and safety" when almost all of earth's population has been decimated? And after all the trumpets and vials? NO ONE will even think of peace and safety. They will all be scared out of their wits. In fact, just about the ONLY time for peace and safety will be just before the pretrib rapture. After that, WRATH and the DAY of wrath. No peace, and no safety after the 1st trumpet sounds. So Noah and Lot were not about who was taken and who was left. It was about suddenness. The "one taken" will most likely be in the parable of the tares.

But, that being said, whenever the rapture will be, "one will be taken and one left."

I went off on a search of the Scriptures until I became convinced the Scriptures testify to a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Rapture of the Church

You did not look in the right place, and you looked in the wrong places.

It's simply not biblical.

Of course it is in the bible, you just have not found it. You looked in the wrong places.

Not only does it not appear, but many verses squash the theory in all its facets.

Sorry, but this is more for the posttrib side of the argument. For example, HOW will you get to the marriage? The ONLY way is to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. You can't use Matthew 24, for you cannot prove that gathering is Paul's gathering. You can't even prove anything in that chapter is for the church. And other verses prove it is NOT. Perhaps the ONLY verse you think you can stand on is 2 thes. 2, and there I doubt if you understand Paul's intended meaning.

People either have to either ignore the clear teaching of the Bible

AGain this is more for the Posttrib side, For example, HOW will you get to the marriage? Why will you set your OWN appointment when God said He would NOT? John SAW the church in heaven before he even began the 70th week. That fact squashes all posttrib arguments.

Jesus repeatedly and earnestly warned His followers that many people would be deceived.

And I say, posttribbers are, because God is pretrib.

why would people be looking for Jesus in the middle of the Tribulation unless there hadn't been a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

How about all the posttribbers left behind? How about all who saw the church leave, but it was too late for them? So there will be many very serious NEW BELIEVERs then,

Why would Jesus spend so much breath warning the Church about deceptions

Because SO MANY are deceived.

Are we any different than the Christians who are now being beheaded or otherwise executed by ISIS?

YES, thank God, we live where (for now) it is safe to worship God. My guess is it will come here. John said that at the time of the rapture (when the great crowd too large to number got snatched up to heaven) it will be "great tribulation." How can tribulation be any greater for those who have been martyred? They cannot be martyred twice! But this is NOT speaking about the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint of the week.

Jesus didn't rapture them before ISIS took control.

It was not yet TIME for the rapture. Jesus can't rapture anyone just because they are in trouble.

Their blood testifies to the world over and over again that Christians consider Jesus to be worth more than preserving their physical lives.

Yet, for those left behind, life will get VERY DIFFICULT. People may well die of thirst: there will be no water to drink: it will all have turned to blood. The ONLY water will be water available to purchase in stores. But without the mark, no chance. There will be no food. So those left behind will get VERY desperate. The very best thing for them to do is just turn themselves in and then lose their head. Just be prepared to be tortured. Be prepared for husbands and wives to be tortured with the other forced to watch. Life will be insanely difficult. The saints WILL BE overcome. iam convinced: Satan thinks if he can convinced the saints of something so they will be left behind, he can pressure them so much they will take the mark.

The question is, IS THIS GOD'S WILL FOR US TO LIVE THROUGH THIS? Of course it is not. His plan and His will is that we be found worthy to ESCAPE what is coming. Of course, you have already said you can't believe (not a wise thing to say) so you will find it extremely difficult to be found worthy to escape: you don't even believe in an escape. How then can you have any faith in it?

For the sake of your soul, please earnestly seek the truth: that God has made a way of escape.

Once the bridegroom comes, the door is permanently shut


Please tell us, in a posttrib scenario, what is the closed door?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If the rapture were anything but pre-trib there would have been no need for the Lord to utter these words...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
rockytop, are you thinking pre-70th week? Then Jesus could come when you think not (sometime other than pre-70th week).

If you go to the anytime rapture view, it doesn't change that the rapture could possibly happen in the next few seconds. But it also takes into account that it might not. The anytime rapture view focuses on us praying, looking up, always hopeful for the rapture, that it can happen anytime between right this second until it actually happens.

The anytime rapture view focuses us on our behavior, not that we be absolutely right in our reasoning. If a person follows the principles of the anytime rapture view, it is impossible to be wrong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
What you are claiming makes no sense...

If there are those there who are "born again", they will be sharing their faith with those who have not heard it.
Do you think their vocal cords are going to disappear, so they cannot speak?

It also proves the age of "Grace" is still present in Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:11 is one example of many where what you say does not match up with what is written in God's Word, but you continue to march forward down the same path anyway...
.
On the contrary, most of the believers will lose their head. Or don't you understand "overcome?" OF COURSE those that can spread the gospel will, until they lose their head or take the mark. Next, most of the believers live where there are others believers. What about those who live where there are FEW? When there is no water to drink, and saints are dying of thirst, will they still be spreading the gospel?

You miss it: what I say does not line up with your theory. I did not write it JOHN DID: the gospel for the last half of the week: WORSHIP GOD, and give Him glory. Period. We cannot add to this.

HOW does this prove the "age of Grace" is still open? Once Jesus shed His blood and took away the sins of the whole world, that fact will go for all eternity. But there is a door that will CLOSE. Please take note, there are MILLIONS in the world today that know NOTHING of Jesus' blood taking away the sins of the world. They will hear the angel saying WORSHIP GOD and give Him glory, and some will DO that.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟90,164.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Riberra said:
Can you show where in the Scriptures is located that trumpet sounding PRETRIB ?
Did you ever study 1 Thes. 5 where Paul gives is the timing of his rapture?

I see no mention of any trumpet sounding PRETRIB in 1 Thessalonians 5.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I see no mention of any trumpet sounding PRETRIB in 1 Thessalonians 5.
did you ever think of putting the right scriptures together?

Look in Revelation for the first mention of "wrath." The very wrath that God will set no appointments with.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟90,164.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
did you ever think of putting the right scriptures together?

Look in Revelation for the first mention of "wrath." The very wrath that God will set no appointments with.
The wrath that Paul is talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5 have nothing to do with the Great Tribulation but is about the Wrath which is opposed to Salvation.

The most important thing that Paul mention is that we must keep Faith in Jesus .... to get Salvation.This is very basic Gospel preached by the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 5

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bibletruth469

Joyful
Apr 14, 2013
787
63
Acworth ga
✟11,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is a parable. It is not wise to push a parable to the extreme: they were meant to show one main theme. I think the theme there could be the entrance into the Millennial Kingdom or the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. It would fit either one. Most take it for the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. We live in the age of Grace, or the church age. Soon that door will close. It will then be too late to become a part of the body of Christ. Others can come, as they did in the Old Testament, but I am not sure they will become a part of the body of Christ. Will all the newly born people of the Millennium become a part of His body on earth? I don't think so.

Today there is an easy way into the body of Christ, and a hard way. One can come now and escape what is coming, or they can be left behind a suffer a VERY hard time on earth, and be forced to make hard decisions. If they reject the beast and lose their head, they can make it to heaven and probably still be a part of the church.

If those five foolish were indeed left behind in a pretrib rapture, they all COULD make it in by losing their head.


I have a different opinion on the parable of the 10 virgins. I believe this is pertaining to the tribulation survivors and not the church. Notice the text says' after that time' or immediately after the tribulation of those days, Matt 24:29. At this time, the entire world is waiting for the Messiah. Also notice that the word bridesmaid is used, not bride( the bride stands for the church). The bridesmaids represent people who are on the earth after the great tribulation is over. The church is not represented here and is not even on the earth.

Now , 5 wise and 5 were foolish. The wise took oil in jars along with lamps while the foolish took the lamps, but no oil along with them.( The oil stands for the Holy Spirit. )Notice when the bridegroom came, All became drowsey and slept. Only the ones with the extra oil were accepted into the kingdom. I believe that this parable points out a couple of things. One, salvation is a guarantee as our inheritance during the church age.However there is no such guarantee mentioned in scripture for the tribulation believers. Rev 16:15 warns that they must stay awake and maintain their righteousness. Two, only 5 could replenish their lamps; these with oil represent those people who have given hearts over to Christ during the tribulation and remained faithful.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
HOW does this prove the "age of Grace" is still open?[/QUOTE]

.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Like Stephen and Paul and James and the thousands upon thousands who have died as martyrs, but overcame by the Blood of the Lamb, and their souls are now in the presence of Jesus.


Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"


Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
.
 
Upvote 0

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,667
550
United States
✟12,166.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You didn't bother to check, otherwise you would know what I was talking about. The only other possibility is you read it but it didn't sink in.
.
And the snarky award goes to you.

Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.
.
Isaiah 65:17–20 (NKJV)
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

I think you misquoted. Isaiah 65:17-20 has nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. It's not an easy thing to find your response to Riberra. If you really want me to see something, why don't you paste it and highlight it somehow?

The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.
.
Finally! Something we agree on! :)

You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:14 NKJV
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).

Revelation 13:5 NKJV
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.
.
You make the assumption that chapter 12 and 13 occur after the 7th trumpet (chapter 11). However, chapter 12 starts before Jesus' birth and continues all the way to the last part of the Tribulation. Chapter 13 is a parenthetical chapter giving background information about the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth, similar to the way Chapter 17 and 18 is about Babylon, and Chapter 14 about various things. Revelation isn't completely sequential.

As I told iamlamad, this is how I currently see Revelation:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Halfway through-3.5 years: the abomination of desolation, from which point Christians are delivered into the hands of the antichrist, and some Jewish believers are protected in the wilderness (probably the 144,000) for the duration of the Tribulation.)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (initial martyrs given their white robes)
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jewish believers sealed no later than the end of year 6, to protect them from the trumpet/bowl plagues
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7} (Like 7 times around Jericho on the 7th day)
The Return of Christ, First Resurrection/Rapture
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The 2nd Resurrection

Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.

Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.
.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 (NKJV)
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now this is interesting. You are telling me that "our gathering together to Him" is not the rapture? I believe it is, and many others besides me. Because the text clearly ties the two together as "that Day" you are unwilling to take it at face value.

Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.
.

As I said, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, but you cannot see because your worldview will not allow you to.

Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.
.

Paul writes two books to churches or people for various reasons, and he repeats or expands on things, too, especially if people haven't understood or if he knew the church was facing a particular threat (e.g., a false doctrine). Your logic isn't sound.

Rapture happens first in the first book (1st Thess). Tribulation and second coming happens after as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. They are separate events!

It's a PreTrib rapture!
.

That's what you want to believe.

1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51–52 (NKJV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Neither 1 Thessalonians 4 nor 1 Corinthians 15 require or describe a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly says this will happen at the coming of the Lord with trumpet call and 1 Corinthians 15 adds it will be at the last trumpet. The last trumpet of Revelation is the seventh trumpet, when the Lord has begun to reign. It is also the time for judging the dead and rewarding his servants, and for destroying those who destroy the earth. If you see Pre-Tribulation, it's because you are reading something into the text that isn't there.

All translations below say that day in 2 Thess 1:10, some even used an upper case D for the day.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) Ondestruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (GNT) when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Kehillah in Thessalonika II 1:10 (OJB) When He comes to be glorified in His Kadoshim and to be marveled at in all the ma’aminim [in Moshiach] because our [martyr’s] eidus (T.N. The word can mean witness al kiddush ha-Shem) to you was believed in YOM HAHU ("that Day" YESHAYAH 2:11).

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html
.


2 Thessalonians 1:3–10 (NKJV)
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Yes, this is clearly at the second coming. But you haven't proven that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture happens earlier.

Now, would you like to know what the gathering is at the end of the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1?
.

It's the only gathering (Resurrection/Rapture) of the Church. You haven't proven a Pre-Tribulation Rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.

I can show you what that is in scriptures too, not mere theory. Actually I don't make theories. I always check numerous other scriptures for references to be sure. The bible said test the spirits. You never know when it's a deceptive spirit misleading you instead of the holy spirit guiding you.
.

Yes, you do make theories. Or at least, you believe them. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a theory. There isn't a single passage that talks about the gathering which is clearly delineated from the gathering at the end of the Tribulation.

Indeed, there are deceptive spirits. Your belief can't violate Scripture. And in the case of something important like the gathering of the Church, there's no reason to have faith in Pre-Tribulation when, as I said, there is no clear passage requiring it as a separate thing from the Post Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

Where did I mention anything about a secret rapture? Can you show me please?
.

There is no point in continuing this discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,667
550
United States
✟12,166.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Sorry, but you are seeing in error:

Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet.
.
I didn't say that Satan gets kicked out of heaven at the seventh trumpet.

The 7th trumpet MARKS the midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.
.
That is not how I perceive it. I believe all the seals, trumpet, bowls will take place in the 70th week.

If the 7th seal marks the beginning of the week, (and it surely does) how then can all the seals be IN the week.
.
To say the 7th seal surely marks the beginning of the week is not a "surely" thing. It is just your theory, which doesn't happen to correspond to my theory. These theories will be shown to be true or false in time. There's nothing wrong with making theories, by the way--it's just that you can't depend on them.

May I suggest you camp out on chapters 4 & 5 which build the CONTEXT for the seals, and learn what they say?
You are so condescending.

Did you not notice in chapter 5 that John got to see in this vision the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended? John is showing you the TIMING of the breaking of the first seal. The truth is, the first five seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended and took the book from the Father. We are now and have been since then, waiting between the 5th and 6th seal....waiting for the rapture that will end the church age, so the murders of those church age martyrs can be judged.
Nowhere does it say all these details about Mary and such, or that this is Jesus fresh from the ascension.
We have a completely different view of Revelation. I believe the seals are still closed and the scroll is still in the hand of the Father. So, you believe the false christ (antichrist) has been here (seal 1)? Worldwide war (seal 2)? Severe famine (seal 3)? Death of 1/4 of the earth's population (seal 4)? Then the martyrs of the early church? That does not make any sense. Where in the first century was the antichrist, worldwide war, severe famine, death of the 1/4 of the earth's population?

Next, if you are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory, then your theory is faulty.
I haven't had to rearrange Revelation to fit my theory.

The "first" resurrection is first in PRIORITY not sequence. It is for ALL the righteous, including Jesus who was the "firstfruits" of this primary of resurrections.
You know, first in sequence is by far the most prevalent use of the word. And just because you want to believe it's about priority and not sequence, doesn't make it so.
Jesus is completely different than us, because He is God. He doesn't have to fit into the first or second resurrection. However, the first resurrection is made possible because He was raised. That is all it is saying. Because He is our Savior, we will rise from the dead even as He did.
 
Upvote 0

ivebeenshown

Expert invisible poster and thread killer
Apr 27, 2010
7,073
623
✟17,740.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I really expected more from you than this: you know Jesus is not reigning as king in the same way He will be during the 1000 years. For example, WHERE IS HE? Why are people not going to where He is to worship Him and see His glory?
Where does Revelation 20 say that people can go and see Jesus, physically, during the "1000 years"? People will be able to see his face, after the old heaven and earth have passed away and God has created the new heavens and earth (Revelation 22:3-4.) It is written in the book of the prophet Isaiah that the mountains will flow at the Lord's coming. (Isaiah 64:1-3.) Peter associates the coming of the Lord with the day of the Lord and states that it will come as a thief in the night and the world will be dissolved and a new heavens and earth will be created in that same day (2 Peter 3:3-13.)

Sorry, but this is not the intent of the Author in this passage (Isaiah 66:19-21)
This speaks loudly that these are JEWS and Hebrews he is talking about.
Christians are God's chosen people, his holy nation, his royal priesthood: Christians are now the people of God (1 Peter 2:9-10.) Christians are the temple of God, as God has said that we would be his people (2 Corinthians 6:16.)

Why do you miss the obvious? The moment the pretrib rapture takes place, the age of grace is over. This is signified by the closed door for the 5 foolish virgins. It will be Day of the Lord and DANIEL'S 70th week time. Go back and read what Daniel said: the 70th weeks concern HIS people, not Gentiles. Of course the Old Covenant will be Old. I think in all bibles it is called "the Old Testament." But it will not be finished until the 70th week is finished. After the nation of Israel REJECTED Jesus as their Messiah after many proofs, God created a parentheses for the Gentile church age. This parentheses is almost over. When Jesus answered their questions about the end of the age, it was about the end of THEIR age, not the end of OUR age, as in the closed door.
When Christ spoke of the parable of the virgins, he spoke in regard to his coming (Matthew 25:1-13.) In that same discussion, and before he spoke in parables, he spoke plainly of that coming, and said it was to be after the tribulation, and with power and glory (Matthew 24:29-31.) He then goes on to say that at this coming in power and glory, the righteous will receive eternal life and the wicked eternal damnation (Matthew 25:31-46.) There is no further salvation beyond eternal damnation; thus, "the door is shut."

For centuries, God had the Jews performing sacrifices, to cover their sins for a year. We know now this was only a shadow until the REAL could come: a sacrifice in waiting for centuries. I think the sacrifices in the future will be the same kind of a thing: sacrifices looking BACK to the ultimate sacrifice. For sure there will be a millennial temple and sacrifices. Ezekiel tells us that much.
Ezekiel was a prophet, and prophecy comes by the Spirit and is not of private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21.) You are interpreting the prophecy in a sense that results in burnt offerings, but the Scriptures say that the Lord takes no pleasure in such a thing and has taken them away and replaced them with Christ's once and for all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:8-10.)

I could write, "no comment."
You could indeed, if there were some portion of my post that you did not wish to address.

Let's pursue your theory:

Jesus comes in power and glory as shown in Rev. 19. As He is descending, the saints rise up to meet Him in the air, then proceed down with Him. Now they are in the very same place the 5 foolish ones still are. So where is the door that closed? The only difference: they are still in their natural bodies, while those caught up and come back down are in their resurrection bodies.
The door that is closed is the ability to attain to salvation through Christ, who said "I am the door." (John 10:9)

So what happens next? Will the five foolish be taken as tares? Will the five foolish be considered a goat? Or will they "pass the tests" so to speak and enter the millennial reign?
The wise virgins are the sheep and the wheat; the foolish virgins are the goats and the tares.

Where then is there a door closed? Can you see a door in your theory? Perhaps you can help me out here, for I can't. I cannot see anyone really "left behind" if the rapture were posttrib, for all that rise up will just come back down.
Jesus uses the concepts of 'taken' and 'left' in parables to portray the good and the bad. The good are taken in the Ark while the bad are left to be destroyed as in the days of Noah, but the bad are also taken 'where the vultures will gather.' They are parables, not literal descriptions of who physically moves in which direction; the literal descriptions given by Jesus and Paul always indicate that the people who belong to Christ are gathered up to meet Him at his coming, and God has said in plenty of other places that he will destroy the sinners out of the earth, and that the mountains will melt and so forth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,667
550
United States
✟12,166.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
NO! It does NOT follow! Jesus' resurrection has to be included in one or the other of the two resurrections John mentions here. There will only be two, and not three or four. One is for the righteous, and one is for the damned. If Jesus was not a part of the righteous, then you must include Him in the other.

1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I don't understand what you're so upset about. Jesus doesn't have to be part of the first resurrection (for those sinners that are in Christ). But, if the Father classifies it this way, than He does. You'll have to ask Him some day. Jesus' resurrection made it possible for the resurrection of the believers in Jesus and gives us hope. Since we are joined to Him, we won't stay in the grave, even as He did not. Death isn't permanent.

Did you really think this through? You are thinking in linear time here. John was thinking in VALUE or RESPECT or QUALITY.
The truth is, Jesus was the firstfruits of the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection. Those beheaded will also be a part of this best or chiefest resurrection, for it is the resurrection of the righteous. Therefore TIME is not included in what John wrote. You are thinking time, John was thinking quality.
Oh, thank you for telling me what John was thinking! (And why do you say John, when Jesus is the author of Scripture?) Your opinion will not allow you to take the clearest context of Revelation, which is that the first resurrection occurs after the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. You go with quality, I'll go with time.

If you have not, please look up the Greek word translated "first" and notice that it was also translated other ways.

It was the Greek word prōtos

he KJV translates Strongs G4413 in the following manner: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), misc (7x).
Look: "first" is the most common usage of the word: 84 times versus 9 times for chief. However, because your view cannot accommodate "first," you are compelled to choose "chief."
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.