You didn't bother to check, otherwise you would know what I was talking about. The only other possibility is you read it but it didn't sink in.
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And the snarky award goes to you.
Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.
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Isaiah 65:17–20 (NKJV)
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
I think you misquoted. Isaiah 65:17-20 has nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. It's not an easy thing to find your response to Riberra. If you really want me to see something, why don't you paste it and highlight it somehow?
The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.
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Finally! Something we agree on!
You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).
Revelation 12:14 NKJV
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).
Revelation 13:5 NKJV
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.
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You make the assumption that chapter 12 and 13 occur after the 7th trumpet (chapter 11). However, chapter 12 starts before Jesus' birth and continues all the way to the last part of the Tribulation. Chapter 13 is a parenthetical chapter giving background information about the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth, similar to the way Chapter 17 and 18 is about Babylon, and Chapter 14 about various things. Revelation isn't completely sequential.
As I told iamlamad, this is how I currently see Revelation:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Halfway through-3.5 years: the abomination of desolation, from which point Christians are delivered into the hands of the antichrist, and some Jewish believers are protected in the wilderness (probably the 144,000) for the duration of the Tribulation.)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (initial martyrs given their white robes)
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jewish believers sealed no later than the end of year 6, to protect them from the trumpet/bowl plagues
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7} (Like 7 times around Jericho on the 7th day)
The Return of Christ, First Resurrection/Rapture
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The 2nd Resurrection
Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.
2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.
Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.
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2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 (NKJV)
2 Now, brethren, concerning the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and
our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Now this is interesting. You are telling me that "our gathering together to Him" is not the rapture? I believe it is, and many others besides me. Because the text clearly ties the two together as "that Day" you are unwilling to take it at face value.
Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.
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As I said, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, but you cannot see because your worldview will not allow you to.
Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.
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Paul writes two books to churches or people for various reasons, and he repeats or expands on things, too, especially if people haven't understood or if he knew the church was facing a particular threat (e.g., a false doctrine). Your logic isn't sound.
Rapture happens first in the first book (1st Thess). Tribulation and second coming happens after as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. They are separate events!
It's a PreTrib rapture!
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That's what you want to believe.
1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51–52 (NKJV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Neither 1 Thessalonians 4 nor 1 Corinthians 15 require or describe a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly says this will happen at the coming of the Lord with trumpet call and 1 Corinthians 15 adds it will be at the last trumpet. The last trumpet of Revelation is the seventh trumpet, when the Lord has begun to reign. It is also the time for judging the dead and rewarding his servants, and for destroying those who destroy the earth. If you see Pre-Tribulation, it's because you are reading something into the text that isn't there.
All translations below say that day in 2 Thess 1:10, some even used an upper case D for the day.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) Ondestruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might.
that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 (GNT) when he comes on
that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) when He comes, in
that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Kehillah in Thessalonika II 1:10 (OJB) When He comes to be glorified in His Kadoshim and to be marveled at in all the ma’aminim [in Moshiach] because our [martyr’s] eidus (T.N. The word can mean witness al kiddush ha-Shem) to you was believed in YOM HAHU (
"that Day" YESHAYAH 2:11).
2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on
that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html
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2 Thessalonians 1:3–10 (NKJV)
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for
your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Yes, this is clearly at the second coming. But you haven't proven that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture happens earlier.
Now, would you like to know what the gathering is at the end of the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1?
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It's the only gathering (Resurrection/Rapture) of the Church. You haven't proven a Pre-Tribulation Rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.
I can show you what that is in scriptures too, not mere theory. Actually I don't make theories. I always check numerous other scriptures for references to be sure. The bible said test the spirits. You never know when it's a deceptive spirit misleading you instead of the holy spirit guiding you.
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Yes, you do make theories. Or at least, you believe them. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a theory. There isn't a single passage that talks about the gathering which is clearly delineated from the gathering at the end of the Tribulation.
Indeed, there are deceptive spirits. Your belief can't violate Scripture. And in the case of something important like the gathering of the Church, there's no reason to have faith in Pre-Tribulation when, as I said, there is no clear passage requiring it as a separate thing from the Post Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.
Where did I mention anything about a secret rapture? Can you show me please?
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There is no point in continuing this discussion.