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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by tanzel, May 25, 2015.

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  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Are you really that naive? It all goes back to dispensations. It seems you think Adam should obey all of Moses law and the New Testament saints can eat from every tree but one! Did you never get the intent of Paul in Galatians 3?

    The "gospel" means GOOD NEWS. For Adam the good news was that He could eat of every tree but one.
    For those following Moses' law it was good news that their sins could be covered. For those in the New covenant it is VERY GOOD news that our sins are forgotten and forgiven. For those in the time of judgment, the 70th week of Daniel, it is good news there is ANY DOOR Open where they could be saved. For them the good news is, all they have to do is WORSHIP GOD and give glory to Him. "Father God, we give you glory: you even have power over the sun, to crank up the heat!"

    Good point in Rev 12:11. But this is specifically speaking of those who are born again. What of those who at this time had never heard the gospel? For them the gospel will be ONLY what the Angel tells them: WORSHIP GOD. That will be all that God requires of them at that time.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    OF COURSE the meaning of the Greek is important! That is the language much of the New Testament was written in. I am trying to tell you that the Greek behind the word "first" is not a TIMING issue, it is a priority issue. This same word was translate CHIEF several times. So read that with chief in it:

    4. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the chief or most honorable resurrection.


    It cannot mean first as in a sequence, because Jesus was a part of this chief or most honorable resurrection. As I said before, since there are only TWO resurrections, Jesus MUST BE the firstfruits of one of the two. Will you assign his resurrecton to the resurrection of the sinner? I think not!

    The first resurrection is after the Tribulation and the second resurrection is after the Millennium.

    No, you are mistaken. Of course PART of it will after, as in those beheaded. The first or primary or most honorable resurrection began with JESUS as the firstfruits. You only THINK it started after the tribulation. It is written there, but that is certainly NOT where it started. Did you know that the 144,000 are also a part of this resurrection? ALL righteous were, are and will be a part of this most honorable of resurrections. And certainly those that lost their head also will be. So PLEASE quit thinking TIMING and think either honorable or not honorable. How do you suppose those seen seating upon throne judging got there? What resurrection did they come from?

    Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word Protos:
    1. first in time or place
      1. in any succession of things or persons
    2. first in rank
      1. influence, honour
      2. chief
      3. principal
    3. first, at the first
    So a real and true meaning CAN BE "first in rank or influence or honor: chief or principle." Strongs also has "most important." This is the intended meaning in Rev. 20. It is the MOST IMPORTANT resurrection.

    Of course it can also be first in timing, but this is NOT the meaning for Rev. 20.
     
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Yes, there will be a gathering of the elect after the tribulation, but it will probably be for the sheep and goat judgment at that time.

    For timing on the rapture, we must look at Paul's writing for he was the only writer to received revelation on it. Study 1 thes. 5 and discover that Paul's rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY and the start of His wrath. That fits ONLY at the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need?

    It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation.

    OF COURSE It is: God has given us an escape. Of course, if you don't wish to take it, I believe He will allow you to witness His wrath first hand. Just know that you will be overcome.

    The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation

    This most honorable of resurrections will also include Jesus' resurrection, the pretrib raptured church's resurrection, the resurrection of the 144,000 and finally those beheaded.
     
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17


    These passage only work with a pre-trib rapture...

    1. As in the days of Noah - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
    2. As in the days of Lot - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where in any of those passages you reference does it say the living are changed from corruptible to incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye? My question is not intended to ask you to prove the post trib rapture, nor the pre trib rapture.

    What I am saying to you is progressive revelation is what gives clarity to the end times scenario. You are not considering the nature of progressive revelation in regards to the four gospels what Jesus said in those.

    The issue of whether them who believe in a pre-trib rapture will not be able to cope should it not happen that way - is someone's personal opinion, i.e. made up thinking, which in fact looks down lowly at your fellow Christians... without merit. You don't know how people will react. The bible doesn't say anything about disappointment in the timing of the rapture will lead anyone to be deceived. Just drop that line because it doesn't come across very well, and certainly is not going to cause anyone to change from pre-trib to something else. Mostly, what you are saying is for post-trib consumption as lame reasoning to justify the post trib view.

    The foolish virgins are them who are not praying, looking up, hopeful for the rapture to happen - which could take place anytime between now and when it does. The door that will be closed is the dimensional portal, that Jesus will come through into the second heaven with the souls of them who's bodies sleep, to call the dead out of the graves; then to translate the living; and then to take them as one body back to heaven, though the dimensional portal and that door will be closed... while the earth goes through the great tribulation. Post trib is going to look awfully foolish on that day. I suggest changing to anytime rapture view.
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    If the rapture were anything but pre-trib there would have been no need for the Lord to utter these words...

    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
    Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are just simply wrong. There is nothing in the bible that prevents the possibility that the rapture could happen pre-trib, or perhaps pre-70th, or even tomorrow. It could possibly happen at another time. The rapture could take place anytime between now, as we speak, and when it actually does.

    The parable of the ten virgins is to be ready. Not to be ready for a post trib, nor pre-trib, nor pre-70th week rapture. But to be ready, praying, looking up, hopeful for it, that it could happen anytime.

    Well, you are modifying the verses - they don't say "includes". You are inserting a general resurrection of all down through history as having died in Christ to be resurrected that time at the beginning of the millenium. Plus those verses don't say anything about the changing of the living happening - which is the actual rapture.

    You are also using bad logic, hanging your view on the term "first resurrection" - but you do so out of context. It is the first resurrection of the millenium. Not that it is the absolute first.

    In similitude, the first trumpet in Revelation 8 is not the first trumpet ever sounded. But the first of those seven trumpet
    judgements.

    You say you have gone from pre-trib to post. Why not make the next change to a better view - that is to the anytime rapture view? You can still maintain your leaning to the post trib position, but the anytime rapture view is not dependent upon us being right reasoning wise, but about us being right with God behavior wise. The anytime rapture view focuses on us praying, looking up, always hopeful for the rapture, that it can happen anytime between right this second until it actually happens.

    Taking the hard line post trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-70th week, doesn't leave any room that we could be wrong. With the anytime rapture view, it is impossible to be wrong, if a person follows the principles.

    Step back for a second from the big arguments between pre-trib and post-trib. Who is the actual enemy? Is it the post-tribbers? Or the pre-tribbers? No, the actual enemy is Satan. That's who wants us to miss out on the rapture.

    So with that in mind, and considering the unlikelyhood of people changing their pre-trib or post-trib positions - to win the battle against Satan, the anytime rapture view makes it possible for my fellow Christians to be ready, regardless of the post-trib or pre-trib "reasoning", by focusing on our behavior, to be praying, looking up, hopeful for the rapture to take place anytime between now and when it actually does.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What you are claiming makes no sense...

    If there are those there who are "born again", they will be sharing their faith with those who have not heard it.
    Do you think their vocal cords are going to disappear, so they cannot speak?

    It also proves the age of "Grace" is still present in Revelation chapter 12.

    Revelation 12:11 is one example of many where what you say does not match up with what is written in God's Word, but you continue to march forward down the same path anyway...
    .
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    MANY people used to believe in a pretrib rapture, but talked themselves out of it. That does not mean then went from false doctrine to true doctrine. Just the reverse is true. God is pretrib. He will come pretrib for His saints.

    What you are missing is that the gospels are not a part of the church. That was OLD Covenant and the NEW did not come until after Jesus rose from the dead. Then, it was God's plan that Israel as a nation would accept Him as their Messiah and then the JEWS would take the gospel to the world. Obviously that did not happen. God gave them a few years to repent, but they did not, so God turned to the Gentiles.

    Matthew 21
    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Romans 11:25
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    The Jewish church, of which the Disciples were a part, disappeared. God sent Paul to the Gentiles to "bring forth the fruits thereof."

    Therefore, much of what you are using to prove a posttrib rapture has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today or the rapture of said church. For that we must study Paul, for He was given the revelation of the rapture. You can't find the timing of the rapture in the Gospels for it is simply not there, except perhaps in a parable.

    Next, when Jesus mentioned Noah and Lot, His PURPOSE there was only about the SUDDENNESS of their destruction. If you doubt this, look at the preposition "for." Jesus TELLS us what His meaning was, WHY He brought up Noah and Lot.

    In both cases they got up one morning thinking life would be just like all mornings before that one, and life would go on. But in truth, they never lived to see another day. THAT was the point Jesus was making. Paul added to this thought by telling us His coming for the pretrib rapture would come in a time of peace and safety. Those in Noah's day had NO IDEA that morning would be their last morning. Same with Lot. They were LIVING in "peace and safety."

    Now, how do you propose to find a time of "peace and safety" when almost all of earth's population has been decimated? And after all the trumpets and vials? NO ONE will even think of peace and safety. They will all be scared out of their wits. In fact, just about the ONLY time for peace and safety will be just before the pretrib rapture. After that, WRATH and the DAY of wrath. No peace, and no safety after the 1st trumpet sounds. So Noah and Lot were not about who was taken and who was left. It was about suddenness. The "one taken" will most likely be in the parable of the tares.

    But, that being said, whenever the rapture will be, "one will be taken and one left."

    I went off on a search of the Scriptures until I became convinced the Scriptures testify to a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Rapture of the Church

    You did not look in the right place, and you looked in the wrong places.

    It's simply not biblical.

    Of course it is in the bible, you just have not found it. You looked in the wrong places.

    Not only does it not appear, but many verses squash the theory in all its facets.

    Sorry, but this is more for the posttrib side of the argument. For example, HOW will you get to the marriage? The ONLY way is to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. You can't use Matthew 24, for you cannot prove that gathering is Paul's gathering. You can't even prove anything in that chapter is for the church. And other verses prove it is NOT. Perhaps the ONLY verse you think you can stand on is 2 thes. 2, and there I doubt if you understand Paul's intended meaning.

    People either have to either ignore the clear teaching of the Bible

    AGain this is more for the Posttrib side, For example, HOW will you get to the marriage? Why will you set your OWN appointment when God said He would NOT? John SAW the church in heaven before he even began the 70th week. That fact squashes all posttrib arguments.

    Jesus repeatedly and earnestly warned His followers that many people would be deceived.

    And I say, posttribbers are, because God is pretrib.

    why would people be looking for Jesus in the middle of the Tribulation unless there hadn't been a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

    How about all the posttribbers left behind? How about all who saw the church leave, but it was too late for them? So there will be many very serious NEW BELIEVERs then,

    Why would Jesus spend so much breath warning the Church about deceptions

    Because SO MANY are deceived.

    Are we any different than the Christians who are now being beheaded or otherwise executed by ISIS?

    YES, thank God, we live where (for now) it is safe to worship God. My guess is it will come here. John said that at the time of the rapture (when the great crowd too large to number got snatched up to heaven) it will be "great tribulation." How can tribulation be any greater for those who have been martyred? They cannot be martyred twice! But this is NOT speaking about the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint of the week.

    Jesus didn't rapture them before ISIS took control.

    It was not yet TIME for the rapture. Jesus can't rapture anyone just because they are in trouble.

    Their blood testifies to the world over and over again that Christians consider Jesus to be worth more than preserving their physical lives.

    Yet, for those left behind, life will get VERY DIFFICULT. People may well die of thirst: there will be no water to drink: it will all have turned to blood. The ONLY water will be water available to purchase in stores. But without the mark, no chance. There will be no food. So those left behind will get VERY desperate. The very best thing for them to do is just turn themselves in and then lose their head. Just be prepared to be tortured. Be prepared for husbands and wives to be tortured with the other forced to watch. Life will be insanely difficult. The saints WILL BE overcome. iam convinced: Satan thinks if he can convinced the saints of something so they will be left behind, he can pressure them so much they will take the mark.

    The question is, IS THIS GOD'S WILL FOR US TO LIVE THROUGH THIS? Of course it is not. His plan and His will is that we be found worthy to ESCAPE what is coming. Of course, you have already said you can't believe (not a wise thing to say) so you will find it extremely difficult to be found worthy to escape: you don't even believe in an escape. How then can you have any faith in it?

    For the sake of your soul, please earnestly seek the truth: that God has made a way of escape.

    Once the bridegroom comes, the door is permanently shut


    Please tell us, in a posttrib scenario, what is the closed door?
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    rockytop, are you thinking pre-70th week? Then Jesus could come when you think not (sometime other than pre-70th week).

    If you go to the anytime rapture view, it doesn't change that the rapture could possibly happen in the next few seconds. But it also takes into account that it might not. The anytime rapture view focuses on us praying, looking up, always hopeful for the rapture, that it can happen anytime between right this second until it actually happens.

    The anytime rapture view focuses us on our behavior, not that we be absolutely right in our reasoning. If a person follows the principles of the anytime rapture view, it is impossible to be wrong.
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    On the contrary, most of the believers will lose their head. Or don't you understand "overcome?" OF COURSE those that can spread the gospel will, until they lose their head or take the mark. Next, most of the believers live where there are others believers. What about those who live where there are FEW? When there is no water to drink, and saints are dying of thirst, will they still be spreading the gospel?

    You miss it: what I say does not line up with your theory. I did not write it JOHN DID: the gospel for the last half of the week: WORSHIP GOD, and give Him glory. Period. We cannot add to this.

    HOW does this prove the "age of Grace" is still open? Once Jesus shed His blood and took away the sins of the whole world, that fact will go for all eternity. But there is a door that will CLOSE. Please take note, there are MILLIONS in the world today that know NOTHING of Jesus' blood taking away the sins of the world. They will hear the angel saying WORSHIP GOD and give Him glory, and some will DO that.
     
  12. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    I see no mention of any trumpet sounding PRETRIB in 1 Thessalonians 5.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    did you ever think of putting the right scriptures together?

    Look in Revelation for the first mention of "wrath." The very wrath that God will set no appointments with.
     
  14. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    The wrath that Paul is talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5 have nothing to do with the Great Tribulation but is about the Wrath which is opposed to Salvation.

    The most important thing that Paul mention is that we must keep Faith in Jesus .... to get Salvation.This is very basic Gospel preached by the apostles.

    1 Thessalonians 5

    5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  15. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    I have a different opinion on the parable of the 10 virgins. I believe this is pertaining to the tribulation survivors and not the church. Notice the text says' after that time' or immediately after the tribulation of those days, Matt 24:29. At this time, the entire world is waiting for the Messiah. Also notice that the word bridesmaid is used, not bride( the bride stands for the church). The bridesmaids represent people who are on the earth after the great tribulation is over. The church is not represented here and is not even on the earth.

    Now , 5 wise and 5 were foolish. The wise took oil in jars along with lamps while the foolish took the lamps, but no oil along with them.( The oil stands for the Holy Spirit. )Notice when the bridegroom came, All became drowsey and slept. Only the ones with the extra oil were accepted into the kingdom. I believe that this parable points out a couple of things. One, salvation is a guarantee as our inheritance during the church age.However there is no such guarantee mentioned in scripture for the tribulation believers. Rev 16:15 warns that they must stay awake and maintain their righteousness. Two, only 5 could replenish their lamps; these with oil represent those people who have given hearts over to Christ during the tribulation and remained faithful.
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

    Like Stephen and Paul and James and the thousands upon thousands who have died as martyrs, but overcame by the Blood of the Lamb, and their souls are now in the presence of Jesus.


    Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.


    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"


    Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
    .
     
  17. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    And the snarky award goes to you.

    Isaiah 65:17–20 (NKJV)
    17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
    For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
    And her people a joy.
    19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
    And joy in My people;
    The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
    Nor the voice of crying.
    20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
    Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
    For the child shall die one hundred years old,
    But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

    I think you misquoted. Isaiah 65:17-20 has nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. It's not an easy thing to find your response to Riberra. If you really want me to see something, why don't you paste it and highlight it somehow?

    Finally! Something we agree on! :)

    You make the assumption that chapter 12 and 13 occur after the 7th trumpet (chapter 11). However, chapter 12 starts before Jesus' birth and continues all the way to the last part of the Tribulation. Chapter 13 is a parenthetical chapter giving background information about the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth, similar to the way Chapter 17 and 18 is about Babylon, and Chapter 14 about various things. Revelation isn't completely sequential.

    As I told iamlamad, this is how I currently see Revelation:
    Year 1 - Seal 1
    Year 2 - Seal 2
    Year 3 - Seal 3
    Year 4 - Seal 4 (Halfway through-3.5 years: the abomination of desolation, from which point Christians are delivered into the hands of the antichrist, and some Jewish believers are protected in the wilderness (probably the 144,000) for the duration of the Tribulation.)
    Year 5 - Seal 5 (initial martyrs given their white robes)
    Year 6 - Seal 6
    144,000 Jewish believers sealed no later than the end of year 6, to protect them from the trumpet/bowl plagues
    Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7} (Like 7 times around Jericho on the 7th day)
    The Return of Christ, First Resurrection/Rapture
    The Millennial Reign of Christ
    The 2nd Resurrection


    2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 (NKJV)
    2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Now this is interesting. You are telling me that "our gathering together to Him" is not the rapture? I believe it is, and many others besides me. Because the text clearly ties the two together as "that Day" you are unwilling to take it at face value.


    As I said, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, but you cannot see because your worldview will not allow you to.


    Paul writes two books to churches or people for various reasons, and he repeats or expands on things, too, especially if people haven't understood or if he knew the church was facing a particular threat (e.g., a false doctrine). Your logic isn't sound.


    That's what you want to believe.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 (NKJV)
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:51–52 (NKJV)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    Neither 1 Thessalonians 4 nor 1 Corinthians 15 require or describe a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly says this will happen at the coming of the Lord with trumpet call and 1 Corinthians 15 adds it will be at the last trumpet. The last trumpet of Revelation is the seventh trumpet, when the Lord has begun to reign. It is also the time for judging the dead and rewarding his servants, and for destroying those who destroy the earth. If you see Pre-Tribulation, it's because you are reading something into the text that isn't there.



    2 Thessalonians 1:3–10 (NKJV)
    3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    Yes, this is clearly at the second coming. But you haven't proven that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture happens earlier.


    It's the only gathering (Resurrection/Rapture) of the Church. You haven't proven a Pre-Tribulation Rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.


    Yes, you do make theories. Or at least, you believe them. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a theory. There isn't a single passage that talks about the gathering which is clearly delineated from the gathering at the end of the Tribulation.

    Indeed, there are deceptive spirits. Your belief can't violate Scripture. And in the case of something important like the gathering of the Church, there's no reason to have faith in Pre-Tribulation when, as I said, there is no clear passage requiring it as a separate thing from the Post Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.


    There is no point in continuing this discussion.
     
  18. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that Satan gets kicked out of heaven at the seventh trumpet.

    That is not how I perceive it. I believe all the seals, trumpet, bowls will take place in the 70th week.

    To say the 7th seal surely marks the beginning of the week is not a "surely" thing. It is just your theory, which doesn't happen to correspond to my theory. These theories will be shown to be true or false in time. There's nothing wrong with making theories, by the way--it's just that you can't depend on them.

    You are so condescending.

    Nowhere does it say all these details about Mary and such, or that this is Jesus fresh from the ascension.
    We have a completely different view of Revelation. I believe the seals are still closed and the scroll is still in the hand of the Father. So, you believe the false christ (antichrist) has been here (seal 1)? Worldwide war (seal 2)? Severe famine (seal 3)? Death of 1/4 of the earth's population (seal 4)? Then the martyrs of the early church? That does not make any sense. Where in the first century was the antichrist, worldwide war, severe famine, death of the 1/4 of the earth's population?

    I haven't had to rearrange Revelation to fit my theory.

    You know, first in sequence is by far the most prevalent use of the word. And just because you want to believe it's about priority and not sequence, doesn't make it so.
    Jesus is completely different than us, because He is God. He doesn't have to fit into the first or second resurrection. However, the first resurrection is made possible because He was raised. That is all it is saying. Because He is our Savior, we will rise from the dead even as He did.
     
  19. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    Where does Revelation 20 say that people can go and see Jesus, physically, during the "1000 years"? People will be able to see his face, after the old heaven and earth have passed away and God has created the new heavens and earth (Revelation 22:3-4.) It is written in the book of the prophet Isaiah that the mountains will flow at the Lord's coming. (Isaiah 64:1-3.) Peter associates the coming of the Lord with the day of the Lord and states that it will come as a thief in the night and the world will be dissolved and a new heavens and earth will be created in that same day (2 Peter 3:3-13.)

    Christians are God's chosen people, his holy nation, his royal priesthood: Christians are now the people of God (1 Peter 2:9-10.) Christians are the temple of God, as God has said that we would be his people (2 Corinthians 6:16.)

    When Christ spoke of the parable of the virgins, he spoke in regard to his coming (Matthew 25:1-13.) In that same discussion, and before he spoke in parables, he spoke plainly of that coming, and said it was to be after the tribulation, and with power and glory (Matthew 24:29-31.) He then goes on to say that at this coming in power and glory, the righteous will receive eternal life and the wicked eternal damnation (Matthew 25:31-46.) There is no further salvation beyond eternal damnation; thus, "the door is shut."

    Ezekiel was a prophet, and prophecy comes by the Spirit and is not of private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21.) You are interpreting the prophecy in a sense that results in burnt offerings, but the Scriptures say that the Lord takes no pleasure in such a thing and has taken them away and replaced them with Christ's once and for all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:8-10.)

    You could indeed, if there were some portion of my post that you did not wish to address.

    The door that is closed is the ability to attain to salvation through Christ, who said "I am the door." (John 10:9)

    The wise virgins are the sheep and the wheat; the foolish virgins are the goats and the tares.

    Jesus uses the concepts of 'taken' and 'left' in parables to portray the good and the bad. The good are taken in the Ark while the bad are left to be destroyed as in the days of Noah, but the bad are also taken 'where the vultures will gather.' They are parables, not literal descriptions of who physically moves in which direction; the literal descriptions given by Jesus and Paul always indicate that the people who belong to Christ are gathered up to meet Him at his coming, and God has said in plenty of other places that he will destroy the sinners out of the earth, and that the mountains will melt and so forth.
     
  20. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (NKJV)
    20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    I don't understand what you're so upset about. Jesus doesn't have to be part of the first resurrection (for those sinners that are in Christ). But, if the Father classifies it this way, than He does. You'll have to ask Him some day. Jesus' resurrection made it possible for the resurrection of the believers in Jesus and gives us hope. Since we are joined to Him, we won't stay in the grave, even as He did not. Death isn't permanent.

    Oh, thank you for telling me what John was thinking! (And why do you say John, when Jesus is the author of Scripture?) Your opinion will not allow you to take the clearest context of Revelation, which is that the first resurrection occurs after the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. You go with quality, I'll go with time.

    Look: "first" is the most common usage of the word: 84 times versus 9 times for chief. However, because your view cannot accommodate "first," you are compelled to choose "chief."
     
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