Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

And which of the five foolish virgins were still able to 'get in'?

It is a parable. It is not wise to push a parable to the extreme: they were meant to show one main theme. I think the theme there could be the entrance into the Millennial Kingdom or the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. It would fit either one. Most take it for the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. We live in the age of Grace, or the church age. Soon that door will close. It will then be too late to become a part of the body of Christ. Others can come, as they did in the Old Testament, but I am not sure they will become a part of the body of Christ. Will all the newly born people of the Millennium become a part of His body on earth? I don't think so.

Today there is an easy way into the body of Christ, and a hard way. One can come now and escape what is coming, or they can be left behind a suffer a VERY hard time on earth, and be forced to make hard decisions. If they reject the beast and lose their head, they can make it to heaven and probably still be a part of the church.

If those five foolish were indeed left behind in a pretrib rapture, they all COULD make it in by losing their head.

 

[iamlamad]

In all of the parables from Matthew chapter 25 there are two groups.

Those saved and those lost.


2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him,Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.)



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There will be no Second Chances. You are either sealed or you are not.

However, you are attempting to force the text to fit John Darby's doctrine.

The Bridegroom only returns one time at His "parousia" or Second Coming.
.

You missed the "lukewarm" group.

 

[iamlamad]

That's right. There's no post trib rapture, the rapture happens before the end.

But how do you know the number of the church being rapture will be 144,000?



Yes, those rapture will go to heaven: to the throne room of God. But how do you know the other part of the church left behind is 2 parts? The bible does not tell us how many christians will not make it.

Revelation 12:6,14-16 doesn't tell us that. It tells us the woman (who is figuratively Israel) will flee to the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Nice try, no cigar but you get to try again next time.
.

His next try will just be the same thing copied and pasted.

 

[iamlamad]

The great white throne judgment comes after the millennium and the second resurrection and is found in Revelation 20:11-15. It is not the same thing as all the rest you mentioned, which correspond to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 (for all the Church through the return of Christ).



Matthew isn't the author of Scripture. Jesus is. And these are His words. And there's no conflict between Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 20:4-6.


Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet. The judgments and the background information are not presented sequentially. For example, Revelation 12 started before the birth of Jesus and continues until the last days of the Tribulation, when the non- sealed Christians (as in, those who aren't among the 144,000 Jews) are martyred by the government of the beast/false prophet.

This is how I see it:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4
Year 5 - Seal 5
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jews sealed then:
Year 7 - Seal 7 {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, ... Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}
Return of Christ and (first) Resurrection-Rapture
Millennial Reign
Second Resurrection
White Throne Judgment for the wicked of all time and the righteous (Christians) of the millennium.


Check out how the seventh trumpet is described. He has reigned. He is rewarding His servants. There is the same basic description in the seventh bowl "It is finished" and the same plagues. There isn't 42 months after the seventh trumpet/bowl. They are the end.



You don't want to read it. "That Day" doesn't have to be anyways here else. I showed you how it's in 2 Thessalonians 2, referring to the return of Christ and the gathering or rapture of the Church--after the revealing of the Antichrist and the great apostasy.

If you want to insist in your own mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a secret pre-first resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation 20 includes the beheaded of the Tribulation), there's nothing I can say.

Sorry, but you are seeing in error:

Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet.

The 7th trumpet MARKS the midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.

Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4
Year 5 - Seal 5
Year 6 - Seal 6

If the 7th seal marks the beginning of the week, (and it surely does) how then can all the seals be IN the week. May I suggest you camp out on chapters 4 & 5 which build the CONTEXT for the seals, and learn what they say? Did you not notice in chapter 5 that John got to see in this vision the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended? John is showing you the TIMING of the breaking of the first seal. The truth is, the first five seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended and took the book from the Father. We are now and have been since then, waiting between the 5th and 6th seal....waiting for the rapture that will end the church age, so the murders of those church age martyrs can be judged.

Next, if you are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory, then your theory is faulty.

The "first" resurrection is first in PRIORITY not sequence. It is for ALL the righteous, including Jesus who was the "firstfruits" of this primary of resurrections.

 

[iamlamad]

Have you considered that one way or another the Last Trumpet that Paul is talking about at the time of our gathering to meet Jesus in the air will not sound before the Tribulation.

That in itself put an end to the belief of a pre-tribulation rapture .

You have been and still are MISSING the intent of the Author.

When the trump sounds PRETRIB the church age will END. This trumpet will most certainly be the FINAL (last) trump of the church age. Immediately after, it will be "The Day of the Lord." The age of Grace door will CLOSE. You do remember the door closing? And you are completely mistaken in your statement. OF COURSE it will sound before the 70th week. It will sound before the earthquake of the 6th seal.

Don't forget, John then SAW THE RAPTURED CHURCH IN HEAVEN shortly after that. That in itself puts and end to any posttrib theories.

 

[iamlamad]

One tenet of the rapture doctrine is a belief that all or part of Revelation chapter 7 is in heaven:
Believing that any of Revelation 7 takes place in heaven, is an addition to scripture.
The first three verses make it clear what John sees in this chapter is on earth. Nowhere does John mention heaven or a change of location of what he is seeing in his vision.

As all this happens BEFORE the Seventh Seal and therefore the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the 'mega thiplis'- great tribulation as the KJV has it, mentioned in verse 14 cannot be the actual GT. It is referring to the just happened by then; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

New Israel will build a new Temple, it will be God's Temple, Ezekiel 43:2, and Isaiah 66:21 says some of the righteous people gathered after the Lord has judged the nations by fire, Isaiah 66:15-16, will be chosen to serve Him as priests. Exactly as Revelation 7:15-17 says.

Why DO people believe in a rapture removal to heaven? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is part of God's plan for his chosen peoples. Such a belief is contrary to what Jesus taught and is simply an escapist false doctrine.

You are mistaken, as usual. The throne of God is MOST CERTAINLY in heaven, and there is where John saw the raptured church.

BUT: Credit where credit is due: you are certainly right: this "great tribulation" has nothing to do with the days of GT Jesus spoke of. John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It is a parable. It is not wise to push a parable to the extreme: they were meant to show one main theme. I think the theme there could be the entrance into the Millennial Kingdom or the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. It would fit either one. Most take it for the entrance into the Body of Christ on earth. We live in the age of Grace, or the church age. Soon that door will close.

The theme is the coming of the Son of Man, which he just spoke of in the discussion, as coming in power and glory.

It will then be too late to become a part of the body of Christ. Others can come, as they did in the Old Testament, but I am not sure they will become a part of the body of Christ. Will all the newly born people of the Millennium become a part of His body on earth? I don't think so.

God only has one people, and those are the people who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike.

- God made his promise to Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ (Galatians 3:16.)
- God confirmed this covenant in Christ (Galatians 3:17.)
- The inheritance of the kingdom is not by law but by this promise, which is in Christ (Galatians 3:18.)
- If we belong to Christ then we are heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29.)

Today there is an easy way into the body of Christ, and a hard way. One can come now and escape what is coming, or they can be left behind a suffer a VERY hard time on earth, and be forced to make hard decisions. If they reject the beast and lose their head, they can make it to heaven and probably still be a part of the church.

If those five foolish were indeed left behind in a pretrib rapture, they all COULD make it in by losing their head.

No comment.

 

[Postvieww]

You didn't bother to check, otherwise you would know what I was talking about. The only other possibility is you read it but it didn't sink in.

Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.

The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.



Again. Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.

The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.





You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:14 NKJV
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.​

In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).

Revelation 13:5 NKJV
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.​

If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.



Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.

Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.

Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.

Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.

Rapture happens first in the first book (1st Thess). Tribulation and second coming happens after as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. They are separate events!

It's a PreTrib rapture!

All translations below say that day in 2 Thess 1:10, some even used an upper case D for the day.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) Ondestruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (GNT) when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Kehillah in Thessalonika II 1:10 (OJB) When He comes to be glorified in His Kadoshim and to be marveled at in all the ma’aminim [in Moshiach] because our [martyr’s] eidus (T.N. The word can mean witness al kiddush ha-Shem) to you was believed in YOM HAHU ("that Day" YESHAYAH 2:11).

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html


Now, would you like to know what the gathering is at the end of the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

I can show you what that is in scriptures too, not mere theory. Actually I don't make theories. I always check numerous other scriptures for references to be sure. The bible said test the spirits. You never know when it's a deceptive spirit misleading you instead of the holy spirit guiding you.



Where did I mention anything about a secret rapture? Can you show me please?









.

Psalm 3704 said:

You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:14 NKJV

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).

Rev 12:14 and Rev 13:5 must overlap each other, as well as Rev 11:3.


Revelation 13:5 NKJV

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.

Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.


The 42 months of Rev 13:5 overlap the 42 months of Rev. 11:3. The 42 months of Rev 11:3 ends in Rev 11:7-12. Revelation cannot be in complete chronological order!


Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.


“that day shall not come” was added by the translators and is only implied. So technically its not there to refer back to 2 Thess 1:10. 2 Thess 2:3 refers to 2 Thess 2:1-2 directly “the coming of our Lord” , “our gathering together”, and “the day of Christ” which are one in the same. Yes, it does refer to back to 1:10 but also 2:1-2 they are the same day.

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.


1 Thess 1:10 refutes that. 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Only one coming written about here not two. As pre tribbers divide it up how does coming to be glorified in His saints and be admired in all them that believe line up with the pre-trib view of the second coming?


Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.


Paul refers to our gathering in 2 Thes 2:1.


Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.


Yes.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,. Is our gathering not at the rapture?


Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.


They were just separate letters written at different times. I Thess just gives more detail about our gathering but 2 Thess does refer to it. Harmonize these scriptures don’t divide them.

 

[Postvieww]

So what about Turkey?









.

A little out of season but I like your turkey. You check out news events related to Turkey and see if you can find any prophecy related events happening over there right now.

 

[iamlamad]

The theme is the coming of the Son of Man, which he just spoke of in the discussion, as coming in power and glory.

God only has one people, and those are the people who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike.

- God made his promise to Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ (Galatians 3:16.)
- God confirmed this covenant in Christ (Galatians 3:17.)
- The inheritance of the kingdom is not by law but by this promise, which is in Christ (Galatians 3:18.)
- If we belong to Christ then we are heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29.)

No comment.

Yes, of course His coming, but WHICH coming? He will come twice more.

Sorry, but I don't believe your theory of one people. Yes, I will admit all who are NOT born again are children of the Devil, simply because they have Adam's DNA. But Jews and Hebrews are special because GOD CHOSE Abraham. If you deny this you deny much of the Old Covenant. What did Paul say?

Rom 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Paul hints at the benefit of being a Jew again:
Ephesians 2:
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Many people wish to ignore the promises God made to Israel and write them off as . I can assure you, God does not forget! He has promised to save 1/3 of those people He made promises to long before Christ came. God loves the sincere Jew and Hebrew of today: those that pray at the wailing wall as an example. He already has planned out HOW He is going to get them to believe.

By the way, there was a 15 year old Jewish boy that died and God took him to see heaven and hell. What He saw and heard is very interesting.

 

[Luke17:37]

Others will see that they are gone. I think you the word that is more accurate is not visible. Secret implies no-one will know. The entire world will know that something has happened. And with all the books and movies and preaching about the rapture, how would the world not know?

The deception will be to explain it away, somehow.

Douggg, I believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, unquestioned, until I was 16 or 17 years old. Then I read Luke 17 and this time I wasn't satisfied with not understanding Luke 17:37 "Where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather". I thought the previous verses were about the rapture (one taken, the other left) but verse 37 didn't make sense in that context ("Why would Christians' bodies be eaten by vultures? Isn't that dishonorable? And why would bodies be left? Doesn't it say, "We will not all die, but we will all be changed?"). I prayed for God to grant me understanding of what Jesus meant when He said that. Then I learned this statement was also in Matthew 24. By studying them closely side by side, I realized the true identity of the taken.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came. So the taken in the context of Jesus' return are the wicked who are destroyed at His coming.

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Now I understand Jesus was plainly saying they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages (Luke 17 and Matthew 24) do not predict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--and Jesus does give the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone (Luke 17:24, Matthew 24:17) and,
2) Wicked people will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.
(See Revelation 19:17-18,21.)

So then I said, "The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church isn't here. So, where is it?" And I went off on a search of the Scriptures until I became convinced the Scriptures testify to a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Rapture of the Church. I can't believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture even if I wanted to. It's simply not biblical. Not only does it not appear, but many verses squash the theory in all its facets. People either have to either ignore the clear teaching of the Bible or not read it and trust the teachers that they are telling the truth. This is not the time to be implicitly trusting teachers.

Jesus repeatedly and earnestly warned His followers that many people would be deceived.

Matthew 24:4-6, 11, 23-26
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many...
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many...
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

This chapter is all about the Tribulation. In fact, verse 21-22, before Jesus' three warnings about the deception of false returns says:

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

I want you to see this: why would people be looking for Jesus in the middle of the Tribulation unless there hadn't been a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Why would Jesus spend so much breath warning the Church about deceptions if the Church was going to leave the earth before the Tribulation even started?

I'm human and I prefer comfort as much as anyone. But God specifically warns against putting self-preservation higher than Him. And God's ways are not our ways. He's chiefly concerned about the salvation of souls and the sanctification of the Church (being made by the Holy Spirit to increasingly reflect Christ). Jesus faced tribulation and suffering and we do, too.

Luke 17:31-33
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Matthew 10:34-29
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 16:24-26
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:34-38
34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 12:23-26
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Luke 9:23-26
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Jesus includes six times in the four gospels. It is important! Not all Christians become martyrs, but Jesus wants Christians to be willing to give up their lives if it is demanded of them.

Are we any different than the Christians who are now being beheaded or otherwise executed by ISIS? Jesus didn't rapture them before ISIS took control. The world keeps hearing of Christians submitting to execution rather than renouncing their faith in Jesus and converting to Islam. Their blood testifies to the world over and over again that Christians consider Jesus to be worth more than preserving their physical lives.

For the sake of your soul, please earnestly seek the truth and don't assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation comes. Perhaps you are thinking, well, if I am wrong, I'll know when the Tribulation starts and then I'll change my mind. Maybe not. There would be all those people who will attempt to deceive you with false christs and false returns of christ. Perhaps you will deceive yourself, "I am here, so this is not the Tribulation and this is not the mark of the beast." (Taking the mark of the beast amounts to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because it is unforgivable.) Perhaps you will be so mad at God because He is allowing you to live among the wickedness and despair that you will consider Him unfaithful and you will no longer believe.

The ten virgins of Matthew 24 were all looking for the bridegroom (all professed Christians), but the foolish virgins didn't have enough oil. Oil commonly stands for the Holy Spirit. They assumed he would come by a certain time before they ran out of oil, but he came "late". (The wise virgins, by contrast, had extra oil for themselves because they had planned for his "late" arrival.) The foolish virgins aren't able to endure. Probably they commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unless they are deceived and never had the Holy Spirit) because they are unprepared for the deception and severe trials of the Tribulation. Once the bridegroom comes, the door is permanently shut. When the five foolish virgins come to it, the bridegroom will not open it to them. Don't be a foolish virgin! Be an overcomer!

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

 

[iamlamad]

Psalm 3704 said:

You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:14 NKJV

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).

Rev 12:14 and Rev 13:5 must overlap each other, as well as Rev 11:3.


Revelation 13:5 NKJV

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.

Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.


The 42 months of Rev 13:5 overlap the 42 months of Rev. 11:3. The 42 months of Rev 11:3 ends in Rev 11:7-12. Revelation cannot be in complete chronological order!


Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.


“that day shall not come” was added by the translators and is only implied. So technically its not there to refer back to 2 Thess 1:10. 2 Thess 2:3 refers to 2 Thess 2:1-2 directly “the coming of our Lord” , “our gathering together”, and “the day of Christ” which are one in the same. Yes, it does refer to back to 1:10 but also 2:1-2 they are the same day.

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.


1 Thess 1:10 refutes that. 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Only one coming written about here not two. As pre tribbers divide it up how does coming to be glorified in His saints and be admired in all them that believe line up with the pre-trib view of the second coming?


Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.


Paul refers to our gathering in 2 Thes 2:1.


Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.


Yes.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,. Is our gathering not at the rapture?


Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.


They were just separate letters written at different times. I Thess just gives more detail about our gathering but 2 Thess does refer to it. Harmonize these scriptures don’t divide them.

I am not sure "overlap" is the right word. Actually John has 6 parallel paths going at once! You see, there are five mentions of events that will begin at the midpoint and go to the end:
42 months of trampling
1260 days of testifying
1260 days of fleeing and protection
3.5 years of feeding and protection
42 months of authority.

For much of this time, all five of these counts of time will run concurrently as in parallel. In addition to these, John has his main-line time-line narrative making 6 total parallel times running at the same time.

Consider you have 6 timers of the kind you twist and turn to the time you want: so you set the first for 30 minutes, the second, etc until all 6 are set. Once all six are set, then all six are running and counting down concurrently. However, for a short period of time ONLY the first is counting down, then two, then three, etc. After about 30 mintues, the first one will DING and end. Then the second, then the third, etc.

In the same way, the count for the trampling will begin first and probably end first.
The count of 42 months of authority started last and will end last.

HOWEVER, in John's narrative, it is not quite so complicated, for he only mentions some as to the time of starting, then never mentions them again. In ONLY TWO does He give us more information, written as a parentheses in each case. For example, Rev. 11:4-13 are written as a parentheses. Fpr the two witnesses, John takes us down a SIDE journey down the last 1260 days ONLY for them. If we understand that as a parentheses, then the main-line time-line would be the city beginning to be trampled, the two witnesses beginning their testimony, the 7th trumpet, the woman fleeing into the wilderness, etc.

Once John mentions an event, he just goes on with his narrative. You are right, it is impossible the 7th trumpet sounds at the end. there will be three more events for the last half starting AFTER the 7th trumpet. It sounds at the midpoint.

Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.

It IS as much as possible: no one can write of 5 different events going at the same time in a single narrative. But one could write them one at a time.

The 42 months of Rev 11:3 ends in Rev 11:7-12. Revelation cannot be in complete chronological order!

It is a SIDE journey written as a parenthesis. In fact, the end of this side journey in actuality will end in chapter 16.

As pre tribbers divide it up how does coming to be glorified in His saints and be admired in all them that believe line up with the pre-trib view of the second coming?

I think this coming is a parallel to His Rev. 19 coming, not his pretrib coming.

 

[BABerean2]

When the trump sounds PRETRIB the church age will END. This trumpet will most certainly be the FINAL (last) trump of the church age. Immediately after, it will be "The Day of the Lord." The age of Grace door will CLOSE.

By making this statement you are claiming that people are going to be saved outside of the Grace of Jesus Christ.
Is this the Gospel found in the New Testament?


Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.



The New Covenant was foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found "now" in effect in Hebrews 8:6.

In Romans chapter 11 Paul makes it clear that salvation comes only by becoming a part of the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Therefore the covenant found in Romans 11:27 has to be the New Blood Covenant Grace of Jesus Christ.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


If the covenant in Romans 11:27 is not the New Covenant "now" in effect, then what covenant is it?

.

 

[keras]

Keras,
You might wants to talk to your partner in crime who believes the church will be taken into heaven: in the throne room of God. Read below.
Apparently he also believes in 2 other parts of the church being left behind to endure the antichrist's reign.

I disagree with Bible2 on this issue.
No one goes to heaven..... How clear is that? Jesus said it: John 13:3

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yes, of course His coming, but WHICH coming? He will come twice more.

Jesus was speaking of his coming in power and glory, so why assume that his parable, spoken immediately after, refers to a different coming? He only spoke of one coming, that is in power and glory, in that discourse. The parable is thus for that same coming. I seem to recall you saying that Paul's letter were the only place where we could find the notion of a 'pre-tribulation rapture.' Are you now saying otherwise?

Sorry, but I don't believe your theory of one people. Yes, I will admit all who are NOT born again are children of the Devil, simply because they have Adam's DNA. But Jews and Hebrews are special because GOD CHOSE Abraham. If you deny this you deny much of the Old Covenant. What did Paul say?

Rom 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Paul hints at the benefit of being a Jew again:
Ephesians 2:
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Many people wish to ignore the promises God made to Israel and write them off as . I can assure you, God does not forget! He has promised to save 1/3 of those people He made promises to long before Christ came. God loves the sincere Jew and Hebrew of today: those that pray at the wailing wall as an example. He already has planned out HOW He is going to get them to believe.

Paul said that the promise made to Abraham and his seed was made to Christ (Galatians 3:16-17.) We are the children of Abraham by faith in Christ (Galatians 3:7.) In Ephesians 2:12, Paul is saying that we "were" without Christ and thus the promises of God. This is made clear by his letter to the Galatians which states that, in fact, the promises of God are, and have always been, through faith in Christ and not through the law or the flesh.

By the way, there was a 15 year old Jewish boy that died and God took him to see heaven and hell. What He saw and heard is very interesting.

No comment.

 

[keras]

I personally don't know if our year 2016 AD means After Jesus's birth or after his crucifixion. Somebody, please chim in.

Just because our calendar is dated [supposedly] from the birth of Jesus, this does not mean He plans to Return on His birthday.
No, the timeline may have commenced at His Baptism. That date was 29.5 AD, as Luke 3:1 informs us.
But reading Luke 4:14-26, it seems more likely the commencement of Jesus' ministry was the on the day He read Isaiah 61:1-2a in the synagogue, perhaps a few months after His baptism.
Therefore 2030 will be the last year of this 2000 year church age.

 

[iamlamad]

By making this statement you are claiming that people are going to be saved outside of the Grace of Jesus Christ.
Is this the Gospel found in the New Testament?


Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.



The New Covenant was foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found "now" in effect in Hebrews 8:6.

In Romans chapter 11 Paul makes it clear that salvation comes only by becoming a part of the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Therefore the covenant found in Romans 11:27 has to be the New Blood Covenant Grace of Jesus Christ.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


If the covenant in Romans 11:27 is not the New Covenant "now" in effect, then what covenant is it?

.

There is a NOW and there is a FUTURE. May I suggest you read the last few chapters of Ezekiel? You will note that they will be offering sacrifices again.

When you figure out WHY there will be animal sacrifices again, perhaps your theories will change.

Was their "grace" under the Old Covenant? You know the answer: perhaps you forgot!

Did you ever wonder: what "law" or command did Adam and Eve have to follow?
What law or commands did all those from Adam to the flood have to follow?
How about from the flood to Moses? What did they have to follow?
Hopefully you know from Moses up to Jesus, and what laws they had to follow.

Dispensation:
1. exemption from a rule or usual requirement.
"although she was too young, she was given special dispensation to play two matches"
2. a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time.
"scholarship is conveyed to a wider audience than under the old dispensation"

What is it about our bibles that is "old" and "new?" We can find this even in the table of contents.
What was wrong with the Old Covenant? Do you know?

Romans 11:27

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This would include all of Israel's sins also.

Did you notice that this too is the "gospel?" But WHERE is the death and resurrection of Our Lord at this time?

Revelation 14:6-7

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

What is required to follow the gospel here, during the 70th week? it is very simple: FEAR GOD - GIVE GLORY TO HIM.
Please note there is NOTHING about the blood of Jesus. There is no animal sacrifice to make either. ALL and I do mean ALL that God will require at this time will be to FEAR GOD and give glory to Him.

According to Gal 1:9, are these angels accursed? They are CERTAINLY preaching another gospel! Paul's gospel, is the very gospel by which we will be judged and his gospel was the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

HOW will you answer?

 

[Luke17:37]

The rapture is the redemption of our bodies from corruptible to incoruptible. There is no reason that the ressurection/rapture can't happen tommorrow. It doesn't have to. But it might. Anytime rapture is the only rapture view that is guaranteed to be correct no matter what. Our reasoning doesn't control the rapture. You may reason post trib. Another pre-trib. Another mid-trib. But each of those could be wrong.

This is only your opinion, and there's no Scriptural basis for it. Test the Word and see if you can't find it. Just because you want to believe a pre-tribulation rapture is possible doesn't necessitate Scriptural possibility. "Anything is possible with God" does not include violating any piece of God's character or God's written word.

The first resurrection occurs in Revelation 20:4-6. Specifically, it includes the beheaded from the Tribulation who are killed because of their witness to Jesus and because of the Word of God, and these beheaded did not take the mark of the beast. All these details are there. If the first resurrection includes them who die in the Tribulation, then that clearly follows that there is no resurrection prior to the Tribulation. God created logic and there's nothing wrong with using it. It's especially appropriate for us as Christians, since we worship the Creator God who made everything good originally. We don't serve the "god" of naturalism/evolution--how would we be sure we evolved properly and that anyone's brain is capable of having a right understanding of anything?

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus was speaking of his coming in power and glory, so why assume that his parable, spoken immediately after, refers to a different coming? He only spoke of one coming, that is in power and glory, in that discourse. The parable is thus for that same coming. I seem to recall you saying that Paul's letter were the only place where we could find the notion of a 'pre-tribulation rapture.' Are you now saying otherwise?

Paul said that the promise made to Abraham and his seed was made to Christ (Galatians 3:16-17.) We are the children of Abraham by faith in Christ (Galatians 3:7.) In Ephesians 2:12, Paul is saying that we "were" without Christ and thus the promises of God. This is made clear by his letter to the Galatians which states that, in fact, the promises of God are, and have always been, through faith in Christ and not through the law or the flesh.

No comment.

I could write, "no comment."

Let's pursue your theory:

Jesus comes in power and glory as shown in Rev. 19. As He is descending, the saints rise up to meet Him in the air, then proceed down with Him. Now they are in the very same place the 5 foolish ones still are. So where is the door that closed? The only difference: they are still in their natural bodies, while those caught up and come back down are in their resurrection bodies.

So what happens next? Will the five foolish be taken as tares? Will the five foolish be considered a goat? Or will they "pass the tests" so to speak and enter the millennial reign?

Where then is there a door closed? Can you see a door in your theory? Perhaps you can help me out here, for I can't. I cannot see anyone really "left behind" if the rapture were posttrib, for all that rise up will just come back down.

Who is to say that Jesus will NOT coming in power and glory for the pretrib rapture before or after He is hidden in the cloud? Who is to say He will not light up the sky like lighting at this pretrib coming before or after He is hidden in the cloud? Who is to say that every eye will NOT see Him before or after He is hidden in the cloud? We only know what Paul said about this coming: that we will rise up to meet Him in the clouds. He neither says it will be visible or invisible.

I can easily see a "door" in my theory: it will be the end of the church age. It may well be the last chance for someone to become a part of the body of Christ on earth.

If Jesus only spoke of Israel and the outcomes of Israel at the end, then of course this parable is only for the Jews. Then of course all the "one taken and one left" is only for the Jews and there is no rapture of the Gentile church anywhere in the Gospels. I don't think there is anything in Matthew 24 concerning the church of today. Why then would I see the rapture of the church of today in the parable of the virgins? Certainly, no matter when the rapture, some will be taken up to meet Him in the air, and some will be left behind. Common sense tells us this.

I can only say because it seems to fit the rapture more than anything after the 70th week. You have asked good questions for which I don't have answers. For certain God the Father knew at that time there would be a Gentile church. We know that Jesus ONLY spoke what He heard the Father say. It was like Jesus was always prophesying, speaking supernaturally by the Holy Spirit. He was therefore not speaking here from head knowledge, for He only spoke by the Holy Spirit.

 

[rockytopva]

It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.- Revelation 13:5

If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...

1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot
2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.
3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious
4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?