Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Postvieww said in post 5357:

We agree it all ends in chapter 16. Jesus comes verse 15 Armageddon begins verse 16 and the 7th vial is poured out.

Actually, Jesus doesn't come in Revelation 16:15.

Instead, in Revelation 16:15 Jesus is encouraging and warning those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12), near the end of the future tribulation. They will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus will be encouraging them to hang on just a little longer until his 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, right after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:3).

Revelation 16:15 could be the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12.

That is, Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Postvieww said in post 5357:

Same lightnings voices, thunderings and earthquake and great hail in Rev 11:19 as in Rev 16:18-21.

Regarding lightnings/voices/thunderings, note that these can occur more than once.

For example, while Revelation 11:19 is part of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that Revelation 8:5 occurs before the 1st trumpet (Revelation 8:7).

And Revelation 4:5 occurs before any of the seals have been unsealed (Revelation 6).

So Revelation 4:5, Revelation 8:5, and Revelation 11:19, are 3 separate instances of lightnings/voices/thunderings. The 1st instance occurs before the seals, the 2nd instance occurs before the subsequent trumpets, and the 3rd instance occurs before the subsequent vials, the plagues of which will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1),

Then Revelation 16:18 will occur as part of the 7th and last vial (Revelation 16:17).

Postvieww said in post 5357:

Same lightnings voices, thunderings and earthquake and great hail in Rev 11:19 as in Rev 16:18-21.

Regarding earthquakes, note that the 2nd woe/6th trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy 1/10 of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after the 2 witnesses are resuscitated and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:11-13). There will be a subsequent earthquake after the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19). And then there will be yet another earthquake after the 7th vial is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial, the first 6 vials will occur in order (Revelation 16). Before all of these earthquakes, one will occur after the 7th seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the 1st trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the 6th seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

Postvieww said in post 5357:

Same lightnings voices, thunderings and earthquake and great hail in Rev 11:19 as in Rev 16:18-21.

Regarding hail, note that a miraculous hail will occur 3 separate times during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24: First at the 1st trumpet (Revelation 8:7), then years later at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15,19), and then months later at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:21). Also, after the tribulation and the subsequent 2nd coming and millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10), the divine defeat of which will include a hail (Ezekiel 38:22). God also sent hail as a judgment at different times in the Old Testament (Exodus 9:18, Joshua 10:11, Haggai 2:17).
 
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Psalm3704

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1 Cor 15:51-52 is the sister passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 they fit together as gloves in hands. Do you not see how both passages harmonize with each other ?You seem to believe that Paul was teaching about a different outcome in 1 Cor 15:51-52 not happening at the same time that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Unto the Coming of the Lord...

1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

No, I don't see!

1 Corinthians 15 has the last trump. 1 Thessalonians 4 has the trump of God.

How many "the" trump of God are there? Show me the scriptures revealing more than one trump of God.





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Psalm3704

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Isaiah 65:17–20 (NKJV)
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

I think you misquoted. Isaiah 65:17-20 has nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. It's not an easy thing to find your response to Riberra. If you really want me to see something, why don't you paste it and highlight it somehow?

No I haven't.

Isaiah 65:17-20 is about life in the next millennium under Christ's reign. Isaiah revealed that people can still die: Isaiah 65:20, while Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:54 that we all become immortal. Rapture happens, Christ returns to earth and ushers in the new millennium.

If 1 Corinthians 15 is the rapture and we all become immortal, explain why Isaiah tells us we can still die. Explain with scriptures.


You make the assumption that chapter 12 and 13 occur after the 7th trumpet (chapter 11). However, chapter 12 starts before Jesus' birth and continues all the way to the last part of the Tribulation. Chapter 13 is a parenthetical chapter giving background information about the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth, similar to the way Chapter 17 and 18 is about Babylon, and Chapter 14 about various things. Revelation isn't completely sequential.



As I told iamlamad, this is how I currently see Revelation:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Halfway through-3.5 years: the abomination of desolation, from which point Christians are delivered into the hands of the antichrist, and some Jewish believers are protected in the wilderness (probably the 144,000) for the duration of the Tribulation.)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (initial martyrs given their white robes)
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jewish believers sealed no later than the end of year 6, to protect them from the trumpet/bowl plagues
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7} (Like 7 times around Jericho on the 7th day)
The Return of Christ, First Resurrection/Rapture
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The 2nd Resurrection

This is just all wrong, the most unorthodox view on the chronology of Revelation I've ever seen from anyone. You must not know 7 is the number of divine completion God uses. He never overlapse events whenever it involves any type of 7.


Now this is interesting. You are telling me that "our gathering together to Him" is not the rapture? I believe it is, and many others besides me. Because the text clearly ties the two together as "that Day" you are unwilling to take it at face value.

The gathering is not even close being the rapture. The are two separate events mentioned in the bible. If you knew where to look, the bible reveals it and explains what it is.

I've tried to show you but you're just too opinionated, never giving me a chance, never willing to listen, but always throwing around your theories.

As I said, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, but you cannot see because your worldview will not allow you to.

That's because your mindset is already locked into this (FALSE) belief that gathering is the rapture. Matthew and mark revealed the angels gather from heaven.

How do you rapture people already in heaven? In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

How do you think they got there in the first place? It's revealed in the bible too.

There ARE clearly scriptures that reveal a pretrib rapture. Do you know where they are?

Paul writes two books to churches or people for various reasons, and he repeats or expands on things, too, especially if people haven't understood or if he knew the church was facing a particular threat (e.g., a false doctrine). Your logic isn't sound.

This theory you just made up is what isn't sound. Not just that, you have an obvious refusal to learn the truth.

How else can you explain why Paul wrote two of the shortest books in the bible consisting only one page each about the end times: 1st Thess & 2nd Thess, and not combine them?

1st Thess is about the rapture.
2nd Thess is about the second coming.

Two difference events separated into two books.

That's what you want to believe.


No, that's what the bible reveals in scriptures. Know where they is? Sorry but I don't think you do.

1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51–52 (NKJV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Neither 1 Thessalonians 4 nor 1 Corinthians 15 require or describe a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly says this will happen at the coming of the Lord with trumpet call and 1 Corinthians 15 adds it will be at the last trumpet. The last trumpet of Revelation is the seventh trumpet, when the Lord has begun to reign. It is also the time for judging the dead and rewarding his servants, and for destroying those who destroy the earth. If you see Pre-Tribulation, it's because you are reading something into the text that isn't there.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 has the trumpet of God.

1 Corinthians 15:52 has the last trumpet.

How many trumpet of God is there? Show me scriptures revealing more than one trumpet of God.

Yes, this is clearly at the second coming. But you haven't proven that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture happens earlier.

If you want me to prove something, how can I do so when you're always talking.......and changing the subject?

It's the only gathering (Resurrection/Rapture) of the Church. You haven't proven a Pre-Tribulation Rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4.

There's a rapture in the beginning of the tribulation and a gathering at the end of the tribulation. Seven years apart and shown in the bible.

If you want me to prove anything to you, you need to learn how to listen first.

I can't imagine what it must be like for the holy spirit whenever He tries to correct you. That seed inside your head is ingrained.


Yes, you do make theories. Or at least, you believe them. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a theory. There isn't a single passage that talks about the gathering which is clearly delineated from the gathering at the end of the Tribulation.

No, you're wrong. Terribly wrong!

There "are" passages that reveal a pretrib rapture but you just don't know where to look. Otherwise you won't claim the pretrib rapture is a theory.

What's theory is your thinking and anyone's idea that differs from your's is all theory to you. Do you actually think you're right about everything that you must always do the talking and shut out listening to other people's ideas?






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Psalm3704

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You're missing my point, that being,they were not raptured, they died.Those who died in Christ are those that come back with Him.

LOL, you're missing the WHOLE point of the bible!

They come back with Him from heaven! They're gathered from heaven! How did they get there? Did they die in heaven?

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Bottom line, people go to heaven. Mansions awaiting in heaven.

And only professing christians doesn't believe in the rapture.






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n2thelight

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LOL, you're missing the WHOLE point of the bible!

They come back with Him from heaven! They're gathered from heaven! How did they get there? Did they die in heaven?

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Bottom line, people go to heaven. Mansions awaiting in heaven.

And only professing christians doesn't believe in the rapture.






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You need to figure out what happens at death, therein lies your answer to how they got there!

Where is Moses right now?
 
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Psalm3704

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You need to figure out what happens at death, therein lies your answer to how they got there!

It tells you right here. How many times have you seen this already?

1 Thessalonians 4:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


Where is Moses right now?

Probably in Jerusalem with Elijah getting ready to testify the gospel.










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iamlamad

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The wrath that Paul is talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5 have nothing to do with the Great Tribulation but is about the Wrath which is opposed to Salvation.
Wow! Now you are copying and pasting from Bible2?

This is probably one of the silliest sentences you have ever written. It is words without meaning. You cannot find even one scripture pulled out of context to back this statement up. Are you trying to say this is Satan's wrath?

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Hebrews 3:11
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


This is the wrath that God will not set an appointment with. It is NOT FOR the church. God's wrath is laid up for the unrepentant sinner.

The most important thing that Paul mention is that we must keep Faith in Jesus .... to get Salvation.This is very basic Gospel preached by the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 5

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Note that JESUS Himself comes as a thief in the night, suddenly and without warning, and THE DAY comes the same way? Why is this? Because HIS COMING will be the trigger for the DAY. The very moment the dead in Christ rise up, this event causes a worldwide earthquake, as seen at the 6th seal. Paul tells us this earthquake is the beginning of HIS WRATH on earth and the start of the DAY of His wrath.

Understand, the moment after the dead in Christ rise, TWO different groups of people get TWO different results: those living in the light of the gospel get raptured and "get to live together with Him" ["so shall we ever be with the Lord"] and so escape the "sudden destruction." But those living in the darkness are left behind and cannot escape the worldwide earthquake.

Therefore HIS COMING and the rapture event will be the trigger for the DAY.
 
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iamlamad

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Well another day goes by and another topic we find you in error. The 1st resurrection DOES happen in several stages. And it does not start at the beginning of the tribulation. The first of the 1st resurrection happened 2000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. He raised the dead (OT saints) and took them with Him to heaven: Matthew 27:50-53.

Matthew 27:50-53 NKJV
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
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Good point! I frequently say that Jesus was the firstfruits of the "first" or most honorable resurrection, but I forget about these that were secondfruits, thirdfruits, etc. Thanks for the reminder!
 
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Luke17:37

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Well another day goes by and another topic we find you in error.
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Jesus alone will judge me--not you or anyone else on this board.

The 1st resurrection DOES happen in several stages. And it does not start at the beginning of the tribulation. The first of the 1st resurrection happened 2000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. He raised the dead (OT saints) and took them with Him to heaven: Matthew 27:50-53.

Matthew 27:50-53 NKJV
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

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These folks who appeared in Jerusalem--did they have their glorified bodies? You can't find the resurrection believers of Matthew 27:52-53 at the Ascension of Jesus in Acts 1. If they were there, the Holy Spirit chose not to mention them. Scripture doesn't say.
Or the other people who Jesus rose from death back to life--like the widow's son or Lazarus--did they have glorified immortal bodies, or did they die again a natural death? Scripture doesn't say. Or how about Dorcas, whom the Holy Spirit used Peter to raise, or the young man who fell out the three story window after he fell asleep but Paul's prayers were answered and he lived? What about them? Did they die physically die twice or did they have a glorified body and go to straight up to Heaven? Scripture doesn't say, therefore there's no basis to insist that the first resurrection comes in stages starting 2,000 years ago.

There's no reason I can see from Scripture that Jesus has to be part of the first resurrection--yes, He resurrected with a glorified body, and He enabled the first resurrection to exist by His personal defeat of the grave on behalf of sinners. Your view is not authoritative (espoused clearly in Scripture) therefore I will maintain my belief in what is the clearest reading of Scripture to me--the resurrection to immortality (of those in Christ) is at the Post-Tribulation Return of Christ, and Jesus's resurrection to a glorified body in a category of His own.

You don't need to bother replying to this post; I will not answer you.
 
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iamlamad

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Luke 17 includes this same parable, except for Jesus says, "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:37-41) The taken are clearly the point, not whether there is peace on the earth. The taken of the flood are those who were killed when the flood came. So the taken at the return of Christ are those who are killed when Christ comes again. Their carcasses will be eaten by vultures (Luke 17:37). This is consistent with Revelation 19:17-18, 21, which records birds eating the flesh of the slain armies, and is also consistent with a post-tribulation rapture.
What was Jesus' real point in bringing up Noah and Lot? Was it who was "taken" and who was "left?" I say NOT! That was not his point.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


What is His point? It is the suddenness of the destruction: it comes without warning - exactly as HE COMES.
However, whether or not you believe it, He will come TWICE more, and both times will be the same: SUDDENLY. The next coming will be FOR His saints, and then His coming WITH His saints as seen in Rev. 19. NO ONE will know when exactly He will come in His Rev. 19 coming either. It will be suddenly and without warning. The difference will be the "peace and safety." NO ONE will feel at peace or feel safe after the 70th week has finished. All will be scared nearly to death.

In 1 thes. 4, SUDDENLY and without any kind of warning, the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves into the air. This event of rising the dead from around the world will cause a worldwide earthquake, just as rising those elders of the Old Covenant caused an earthquake in Matthew 27. So just as the rising of those dead in Christ comes SUDDENLY, so does the SUDDEN DESTRUCTION Paul wrote of which will be the worldwide earthquake. Where do we find a coresponding place in Revelation? ONLY one place, at the 6th seal. For Paul tells us this sudden destruction will be the start of the DAY of the Lord and of His wrath - EXACTLY what John tells us at the 6th seal.

Paul goes on to say this SUDDEN event will come at a time of peace and safety. Where on earth or when on earth will there be any "peace and safety" and people just living a normal life of eating, drinking, marrying, buying, selling, etc after the trumpets and vials have finished? The FEW people left on earth will be literally shaking in their boots with fear. The only possible time could be when the two witnesses die. But I doubt if anyone is eating and drinking as in normal life.

So FORGET about who was "taken" in the flood. That was not His point at all.

Luk 17
31 In that day,
he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Where else does Jesus talk about being on the housetop? Where else about running for your life?

Mat. 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

So can we find this in Revelation?

Rev. 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


This verse will be a second or two after the abomination Jesus warned about.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman


This is the point in time Jesus was speaking about. The moment of the abomination, Satan is cast down and the man of sin becomes possessed and goes HARD after the woman fleeing.

Luk 17
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.


WHAT night? Of course the night of fleeing. That would be the context. What will happen to those in Judea that choose NOT to flee? Luke tells us: that night the armies of the man of sin go after the woman, that is the Jews living in Judea and the surrounding areas. The man of sin turned BEAST is very angry with the woman, and here is when the murdering begins. There is no mark yet, and no image yet, and no false prophet yet, just the BEAST intent on murdering every Jew and Hebrew. So on THIS night, as foretold by Luke, the Beast starts on his rampage.

What about "seeking to save his life shall lose it?" Someone might think, "I must get my coat from inside my house, and get some food" and because they hesitated (as Lot's wife did) they lost their life.
We MUST study these verses IN CONTEXT.
 
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iamlamad

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Jesus alone will judge me--not you or anyone else on this board.


These folks who appeared in Jerusalem--did they have their glorified bodies? You can't find the resurrection believers of Matthew 27:52-53 at the Ascension of Jesus in Acts 1. If they were there, the Holy Spirit chose not to mention them. Scripture doesn't say.
Or the other people who Jesus rose from death back to life--like the widow's son or Lazarus--did they have glorified immortal bodies, or did they die again a natural death? Scripture doesn't say. Or how about Dorcas, whom the Holy Spirit used Peter to raise, or the young man who fell out the three story window after he fell asleep but Paul's prayers were answered and he lived? What about them? Did they die physically die twice or did they have a glorified body and go to straight up to Heaven? Scripture doesn't say, therefore there's no basis to insist that the first resurrection comes in stages starting 2,000 years ago.

There's no reason I can see from Scripture that Jesus has to be part of the first resurrection--yes, He resurrected with a glorified body, and He enabled the first resurrection to exist by His personal defeat of the grave on behalf of sinners. Your view is not authoritative (espoused clearly in Scripture) therefore I will maintain my belief in what is the clearest reading of Scripture to me--the resurrection to immortality (of those in Christ) is at the Post-Tribulation Return of Christ, and Jesus's resurrection to a glorified body in a category of His own.

You don't need to bother replying to this post; I will not answer you.

OF COURSE you have the freedom to believe what you choose to believe. God gave every human the right of choice. Since you have chosen to believe in a post trib rapture, I must tell you the cost of that belief:

God is pretrib and will certainly come pretrib to get His Bride and take her out of the earth before His wrath falls. That is scripture and will happen as surely as day follows night and night follows day. BUT: you will be left behind because you have ZERO faith in watching for Jesus TODAY. How can you, since you don't believe He could come for His Bride today or tomorrow? So you will be watching for something else, and not watching for HIM.

Therefore you will be SETTING YOUR OWN APPOINTMENT with His wrath. He has promised not to set one, but you will set it yourself. Just be prepared to be overcome and lose your head.

The moment after the rapture, IF you survive the sudden destruction earthquake, and FEAR takes over, you will then know you have been left behind and WHY you were left behind. It will be your own doing. God has created a way of escape (Luke 21:36) but you chose to refuse it. At this point in time, you cannot even imagine how terrible it will be then.

I can only offer you a suggestion: just turn yourself in and tell them you are a Christian.
 
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iamlamad

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See, this is interesting! Since none of the other Scriptures testify to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you base your entire faith in Pre-Tribulation on one passage: 1 Thessalonians 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 (NKJV)
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

True Christians obtain salvation, not wrath (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire).

Paul refers to the day of the Lord as a thief in the night. How would they "know" this about the "pre-tribulation rapture" if this was the first revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture? They couldn't. Paul was talking about the resurrection/rapture at the return of Christ, of which Christ warned that it is like a thief in the night. Those who are not prepared--all the wicked, the apostate (most likely), the hypocrites, the people who claim to know Christ but refuse to obey Him--will go "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Please understand, iamlamad, I am not trying to make you feel bad. I am sharing because I don't want you to be deceived.


There's nothing else to say here; we disagree.



You define it in a strange way in order to try to fit your obtuse view into Scripture. This is not unlike people who claim that the days of Genesis 1 are millions or billions of years. Yet Scripture says, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them" (Exodus 20:11). And the foundation of the gospel rests on Genesis 1-3, especially, that there was no death before sin, we need a blood sacrifice, and we have the promise of the Savior (Genesis 3:15). Yes, it's possible to believe the gospel and take a compromised position on Genesis 1-3, but in such a position there is no logical foundation for a belief in the gospel (What is sin? Why is death the penalty for sin? Why do we need a blood sacrifice? Why do we need a Savior...). The compromise of Genesis is also a slippery slope to believing that there is no such thing as a literal, bodily return of Christ (see 2 Peter 3:3-9).

We have been told to correctly divide the scriptures. I don't think you have done that. Paul alone got the revelation of the rapture of today's church. (The first church, made up of Jews, did not get raptured, but rather disappeared.) In fact, all the other disciples went to the Jews, and God sent Paul to the Gentiles. He was the apostle to the Gentiles. The truth is, God got fed up with Israel because they refused to accept Him as their Messiah after SO MANY proofs. So God turned to the Gentiles as the parable tells us. The entire Gentile church age is as a parentheses inserted into the HEBREW timeline. They know the day is coming when their Messiah will come and save them. That was known LONG before Jesus was born. The disciples even asked Him after the resurrection if He would at that time become the KING of the earth and set up His Kingdom.

Since God is now dealing primarily with the Gentile church of today, and Paul's epistles are about the Gentile church of today, why would you try to find any information on the rapture of todays Gentile church in the Gospels? It simply is NOT THERE. Of course I would look in Paul's writing because HE GOT THE REVELATION.

I asked you once before if you bypassed Acts 1 and 2 in your Christian walk. You did not answer. My method of study is different than yours. I meditate on a difficult passage and pray in the spirit UNTIL God answers. I don't try to use human reasoning. HE is the teacher. But FEW know how to get Him to teach. Trying to use human reasoning on end times scriptures leaves us right where we are on this thread: many different people, all with different theories and all thinking they are right. But it is all human reasoning.

I said it before. I will say it again. 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and Revelation are just about the only place we can find the truth on the timing of the Rapture. You think you found it in Matthew 24. You are mistaken. It is not there.

You have missed the intent of the Author in 1 Thes. 5.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Notice the last phrase: we should live together with Him. Compare:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These two verses are saying EXACTLY the same thing with different words. HOW will we get to live together with Him and forever be with Him? HOW, Paul? Well, He tells us how: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"

Therefore, when Paul wrote "to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ... we should live together with Him" he is talking about the RAPTURE. It is IN this word "salvation." AGain you should look up the Greek behind that English word. What Paul is saying is:

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, [meaning get left behind to suffer through God's wrath poured out on the sinners] but to obtain salvation [get saved from living through His wrath by getting raptured or caught up] through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him [because we got caught up with the dead in Christ to meet Him in the air]."

So WHEN will this take place? It will be ONE MOMENT before God's wrath begins. It will be ONE MOMENT before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. WHERE do we find that in Revelation? ONLY at the 6th seal. THAT is the beginning of His wrath poured out.

Then in the VERY NEXT CHAPTER John SAW with his own two eyes, the raptured church IN HEAVEN. HOW did they get there? By way of Paul's "catching up" or rapture event.

Do you have any questions? What part of this do you have trouble believing?

True Christians obtain salvation, not wrath (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire).

No - not the intent of the Author

True Christians obtain salvation, not wrath (the wrath of God poured out in a world that will not repent. This wrath begins at the 6th seal earthquake and continues through the entire 70th week).

THIS is the wrath Paul was speaking of. It is the wrath God will set NO appointments for us.

NO ONE knew about the rapture or catching up before Paul wrote it; that is why He called it a mystery.
 
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Postvieww

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Why would they not overlap? Oh that's right, you misread what I wrote.....again!




My commentary is based on the following chronology " 1st seal,2nd seal, 3rd seal, 4th seal, 5th seal, 6th seal, 7th seal, 1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet, 3rd trumpet, 4th trumpet, 5th trumpet, 6th trumpet, 7th trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd vial, 3rd vial, 4th vial, 5th vial, 6th vial, 7th vial.

If your view is different from mines, I can guarantee you're in error!





The gathering is not the rapture. If you have any idea what it is you would be able to refute the fact that in Matthew 24:29-31, the angels gather from heaven.

You can't rapture people already in heaven. In a rapture people go up, they don't come down.....you silly clown!



An empathic NO! Not even close.

Wanna see the scriptures in the bible that proves it?








.

Psalm 3704 from post #5404


Postvieww said: ↑

Rev 12:14 and Rev 13:5 must overlap each other,


Why would they not overlap? Oh that's right, you misread what I wrote.....again!


Again, you miss the point. If the 42 months of the 2 witnesses begins and ends in Chapter 11 and events from Chapter 12 and 13 overlap Chapter 11 and each other. It is very reasonable to believe seals , trumpets and vial can over lap in the same way.

Postvieww said: ↑

Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.


My commentary is based on the following chronology " 1st seal,2nd seal, 3rd seal, 4th seal, 5th seal, 6th seal, 7th seal, 1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet, 3rd trumpet, 4th trumpet, 5th trumpet, 6th trumpet, 7th trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd vial, 3rd vial, 4th vial, 5th vial, 6th vial, 7th vial.


If your view is different from mines, I can guarantee you're in error!


My view is definitely different from yours and I have repeatedly given examples comparing scripture to scripture why I believe a non chronological reading of Revelation is correct. Simply declaring you are right and I am wrong proves nothing but the fact you are convinced you are right. What do you back that guarantee with?


Postvieww said: ↑

Paul refers to our gathering in 2 Thes 2:1.


The gathering is not the rapture. If you have any idea what it is you would be able to refute the fact that in Matthew 24:29-31, the angels gather from heaven.


I have no idea what you are thinking. From what you wrote it appears you are saying 1 Thess 2:1 is the same as Matt 24:31.


You can't rapture people already in heaven. In a rapture people go up, they don't come down.....you silly clown!


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him


You said 1 Thess was the rapture. In the above verse we have Jesus bringing people DOWN with Him.


I have already refuted this once in detail, I’ll repost it below.


Postvieww said: ↑

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,. Is our gathering not at the rapture?


An empathic NO! Not even close.


Really, I would tend to believe most pretibbers would disagree with you on that point.


Wanna see the scriptures in the bible that proves it?


You should have provided them in this post.



Repost by Postview and updated:

Psalm 3704
“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”


This not an argument based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52


Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.


Mark 13:27 adds “from the uttermost part of the earth”


Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.


The events of this passage are on this earth. Elam is current day Iran. Elam is not in heaven where God dwells, yet the passage says Elam will be brought from ” the four winds from the four quarters of heaven” the language is obviously figurative. I submit it is the same figurative language in Matt 24:31


Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth. More figurative language transpiring on this earth.


Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


The events of this passage are on the earth. More figurative language.


Zech 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.


The events of this passage are on the earth. More figurative language.


In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells. There is no scriptural reason to believe Matt 24:31 is any different!


I believe I have refuted your statement: “How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”

I have used scripture here to back my point, if you choose to respond, I would appreciate a response in kind. I already know you think I am wrong and you are right.

I’m really not a “silly clown”. :wave:
 
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Luke17:37

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No I haven't.

Isaiah 65:17-20 is about life in the next millennium under Christ's reign. Isaiah revealed that people can still die: Isaiah 65:20, while Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:54 that we all become immortal. Rapture happens, Christ returns to earth and ushers in the new millennium.

If 1 Corinthians 15 is the rapture and we all become immortal, explain why Isaiah tells us we can still die. Explain with scriptures.
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All Christians at 1 Corinthians 15 become immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

People who are not Christians prior to His return are not immortal (e.g., any other humans who happen to survive) and neither are those people born in the Millennium--both can still die.

This is just all wrong, the most unorthodox view on the chronology of Revelation I've ever seen from anyone. You must not know 7 is the number of divine completion God uses. He never overlapse events whenever it involves any type of 7.
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Opinions. I told you it was my opinion, not my faith. The passage of time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

The army circled Jericho seven times on the seventh day. There's no reason why seven trumpets/bowls can't happen on the seventh year. I don't know if it will, but this is my guess unless I can see that I am wrong.

The gathering is not even close being the rapture. The are two separate events mentioned in the bible. If you knew where to look, the bible reveals it and explains what it is.

I've tried to show you but you're just too opinionated, never giving me a chance, never willing to listen, but always throwing around your theories.
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You are just as opinionated, just as likely to give me your theories, and also you are not listening to me. But you claim your theory of Pre-Tribulation Rapture as authoritative.

That's because your mindset is already locked into this (FALSE) belief that gathering is the rapture. Matthew and mark revealed the angels gather from heaven.

How do you rapture people already in heaven? In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

How do you think they got there in the first place? It's revealed in the bible too.
.

The heavens are the sky God created.

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There's nothing to suggest the rapture happens in heaven (as in, where God dwells), but the event is a resurrection/rapture in the heavens (as in, the sky, where the clouds reside). The resurrection applies to the dead in Christ. The rapture applies to the people in Christ who haven't died.

There ARE clearly scriptures that reveal a pretrib rapture. Do you know where they are?
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There's no point, Psalm3704. Everything you or others have claimed to be a clear revealing of a pretrib rapture does not say that.

This theory you just made up is what isn't sound. Not just that, you have an obvious refusal to learn the truth.

How else can you explain why Paul wrote two of the shortest books in the bible consisting only one page each about the end times: 1st Thess & 2nd Thess, and not combine them?

1st Thess is about the rapture.
2nd Thess is about the second coming.

Two difference events separated into two books.
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As I said, there's nothing that necessitates a pre-tribulation rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4. Most argue that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians because false teachers were coming to them and telling them the gathering (rapture) already happened (and that they had missed it). This was worrying them, apparently. It is this false teaching (that Christians could miss the rapture) that Paul corrects in 2 Thessalonians 2.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 refers to a Second Coming/Post Tribulation Rapture--the return of Christ and "the gathering" on "that Day" which is, by context, after the Tribulation has started (because of the revealing of the antichrist and great apostasy).

No, that's what the bible reveals in scriptures. Know where they is? Sorry but I don't think you do.
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There's no point in continuing to beat the dead horse.
"I don't think you know" is such a disrespectful way of addressing someone.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 has the trumpet of God.

1 Corinthians 15:52 has the last trumpet.

How many trumpet of God is there? Show me scriptures revealing more than one trumpet of God.
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There are seven trumpets in Revelation. You know where to look.

If you want me to prove something, how can I do so when you're always talking.......and changing the subject?
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I haven't been ignoring your questions, and I haven't been changing the subject. You are doing plenty of talking.

There's a rapture in the beginning of the tribulation and a gathering at the end of the tribulation. Seven years apart and shown in the bible.

If you want me to prove anything to you, you need to learn how to listen first.
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Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not conclusively shown in the Bible. You would never even get the idea unless you made it up or heard it from someone outside of the Bible. For example, evolutionists decided there must be an Oort Cloud since they needed some explanation for comets existing billions of years into the universe. They must hold to billions of years for the universe. They are unwilling to consider thousands of years because that would force them to believe in a Creator. The same thing also applies to the millions or billions of years people try to accommodate in Genesis 1 - it is taking man's ideas as authoritative rather than subjecting man's ideas to the authority of the Word of God.

Look, Psalm3704, you aren't my Father. You should be able to have a discussion without being condescending.

I can't imagine what it must be like for the holy spirit whenever He tries to correct you. That seed inside your head is ingrained.
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You are rude.

No, you're wrong. Terribly wrong!

There "are" passages that reveal a pretrib rapture but you just don't know where to look. Otherwise you won't claim the pretrib rapture is a theory.
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Let God be the judge.

What's theory is your thinking and anyone's idea that differs from your's is all theory to you. Do you actually think you're right about everything that you must always do the talking and shut out listening to other people's ideas?
..
No; I hear lots of theories that I think, "Oh, that's interesting. That could be." For example, my friend thinks that the Islamic eschatology lined up with Biblical eschatology so perhaps the Mahdi is the beast from the sea (Antichrist, Seal 1) and the Islamic Jesus is the beast from the earth, or the false prophet. We don't know for sure, but I accept that the theory doesn't violate clear Scripture.

If you haven't noticed, I'm responding to your questions. That's all I'm doing.

I know I am not right about everything but there's a difference when I think Scripture is authoritative about something or not. I could be wrong about my Tribulation timeline guess.

I don't think there's any point in you and I talking anymore, Psalm3704.
 
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Job8

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I don't see a biblical basis for dividing the first resurrection into stages.
That's only because you are not reading what the Bible says (or ignoring its clear implications) in 1 Cor 15:23-25 KJV:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (3) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 
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iamlamad

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Why would they not overlap? Oh that's right, you misread what I wrote.....again!

My commentary is based on the following chronology " 1st seal,2nd seal, 3rd seal, 4th seal, 5th seal, 6th seal, 7th seal, 1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet, 3rd trumpet, 4th trumpet, 5th trumpet, 6th trumpet, 7th trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd vial, 3rd vial, 4th vial, 5th vial, 6th vial, 7th vial.

If your view is different from mines, I can guarantee you're in error!
On this I agree 100% plus. It is simply the way John write it based on the Holy Spirit behind Him.


The gathering is not the rapture.
Here I have to disagree 100% if you are speaking of the gathering in 2 Thes. 2. Of course it is the rapture from 1 Thes. Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit working through the church is what is restraining the man of sin from being revealed: but when the church is "taken out of the way" (apostasia = departure or departing) THEN the man of sin will be revealed. Therefore this "gathering" IS speaking of the rapture.

If you have any idea what it is you would be able to refute the fact that in Matthew 24:29-31, the angels gather from heaven.
Postview has some good points on this. It COULD be a strange was of saying a gathering from all around the earth. But if this is so, why would the author even mention "heaven," especially the "uttermost parts of heaven." Anyway the Matthew 24 gathering cannot be Paul's gathering because the timing is 7 plus years off.

You can't rapture people already in heaven. In a rapture people go up, they don't come down.....you silly clown!
They frequently argue that part of the gathering of the rapture events is God gathering up all the souls in heaven. I don't include that in Paul's rapture. It is not a part of it, but rather comes before.


[2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,. Is our gathering not at the rapture?]
An empathic NO! Not even close.

Wanna see the scriptures in the bible that proves it?
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Yes, indeed I REALLY want you to prove this by scripture, for I don't believe it. This gathering is most certainly Paul's rapture.
 
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iamlamad

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That's only because you are not reading what the Bible says (or ignoring its clear implications) in 1 Cor 15:23-25 KJV:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (3) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Please, Luke17:37, read this carefully! Notice that Paul INCLUDES in the very same resurrection Christ as the firstfruits, then Christ's at His coming.

We have been trying to show you by scripture that "first" as in "first resurrection" is not a SEQUENCE in time but rather in HONOR. ALL the righteous, from Adam to the last beheaded person will be raised under this FIRST IN HONOR resurrection.

Good Job, Job8!
 
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iamlamad

Lamad
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All Christians at 1 Corinthians 15 become immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

People who are not Christians prior to His return are not immortal (e.g., any other humans who happen to survive) and neither are those people born in the Millennium--both can still die.


Opinions. I told you it was my opinion, not my faith. The passage of time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

The army circled Jericho seven times on the seventh day. There's no reason why seven trumpets/bowls can't happen on the seventh year. I don't know if it will, but this is my guess unless I can see that I am wrong.



You are just as opinionated, just as likely to give me your theories, and also you are not listening to me. But you claim your theory of Pre-Tribulation Rapture as authoritative.



The heavens are the sky God created.

Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There's nothing to suggest the rapture happens in heaven (as in, where God dwells), but the event is a resurrection/rapture in the heavens (as in, the sky, where the clouds reside). The resurrection applies to the dead in Christ. The rapture applies to the people in Christ who haven't died.


There's no point, Psalm3704. Everything you or others have claimed to be a clear revealing of a pretrib rapture does not say that.


As I said, there's nothing that necessitates a pre-tribulation rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4. Most argue that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians because false teachers were coming to them and telling them the gathering (rapture) already happened (and that they had missed it). This was worrying them, apparently. It is this false teaching (that Christians could miss the rapture) that Paul corrects in 2 Thessalonians 2.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 refers to a Second Coming/Post Tribulation Rapture--the return of Christ and "the gathering" on "that Day" which is, by context, after the Tribulation has started (because of the revealing of the antichrist and great apostasy).


There's no point in continuing to beat the dead horse.
"I don't think you know" is such a disrespectful way of addressing someone.


There are seven trumpets in Revelation. You know where to look.


I haven't been ignoring your questions, and I haven't been changing the subject. You are doing plenty of talking.


Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not conclusively shown in the Bible. You would never even get the idea unless you made it up or heard it from someone outside of the Bible. For example, evolutionists decided there must be an Oort Cloud since they needed some explanation for comets existing billions of years into the universe. They must hold to billions of years for the universe. They are unwilling to consider thousands of years because that would force them to believe in a Creator. The same thing also applies to the millions or billions of years people try to accommodate in Genesis 1 - it is taking man's ideas as authoritative rather than subjecting man's ideas to the authority of the Word of God.

Look, Psalm3704, you aren't my Father. You should be able to have a discussion without being condescending.


You are rude.


Let God be the judge.


No; I hear lots of theories that I think, "Oh, that's interesting. That could be." For example, my friend thinks that the Islamic eschatology lined up with Biblical eschatology so perhaps the Mahdi is the beast from the sea (Antichrist, Seal 1) and the Islamic Jesus is the beast from the earth, or the false prophet. We don't know for sure, but I accept that the theory doesn't violate clear Scripture.

If you haven't noticed, I'm responding to your questions. That's all I'm doing.

I know I am not right about everything but there's a difference when I think Scripture is authoritative about something or not. I could be wrong about my Tribulation timeline guess.

I don't think there's any point in you and I talking anymore, Psalm3704.

I hope you will allow me to come into this conversation. I have asked you questions you have ignored. I guessed at the answer because you did not tell me otherwise. I am referring to Acts 1 & 2. I do hope you will answer. But back to this conversation. You say the ONLY way one come come up with pretrib is with preconceptions. I beg to differ.

A few years ago God pushed me, heels dragging, into studying Revelation. I KNEW it was His will, but I was reluctant. Before that my older brother tried his best to get me interested and now I can see it was the Holy Spirit through him also.

Finally I gave up resisting and began to read. For three or four years I read NOTHING in the bible but Revelation and Ends times scriptures in the Old Testament. I already KNEW How to get the Holy Spirit to teach me, for I learned that before. So I just read and read and purposely did NOT try to understand or reason anything. I TOLD God I would know nothing unless He taught me. I would come with a clean slate. So I PURPOSELY did not try to understand. I wanted for Him. So I read and praying in the Holy Spirit - a LOT. In case you are not familiar with that, Paul taught that praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues. Paul prayed in tongues more than all of them, and Paul had more revelation knowledge than any other apostle. These two go together: tongues and revelation.

One day while reading Daniel 9:27 when My eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke. I heard His voice and His words. They sounded audible, as if any in the room would have heard. He said, "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I asked Him how and He said:

"every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time: when you find the mentions of this 3 1/2 year period of time, you will be VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint."

This was the first of many times God spoke to teach me Revelation. He taught me much on Rev. 4 & 5 and 12 and some things in other chapters. He also gave me revelation knowledge on 1 thes. 5. I was not smart enough to know much of ANYTHING on my own. But on the things He has taught me, I can be very dogmatic" I know it is truth. Also note that He ALWAYS taught by using scripture.

You say the ONLY way one come come up with pretrib is with preconceptions. I laid aside EVERYTHING about end times and waited to see what He would teach me. I had no idea if pre, mid, or post was truth.

If you did not have Matthew 24, John 6 and 2 thes. 2 for your posttrib theory, what is left? I have said over and over that Paul and Paul alone received Revelation knowledge of the rapture. We have to find the timing in his writings, and perhaps confirm it elsewhere. That is why I back my belief on 1 & 2 thes. and Revelation to confirm.

You have never commented on 1 Thes. 5. Perhaps you just don't believe what I have written about that. Here is the first key God showed me:
"so shall we ever be with the Lord" and
"get to live together with Him"
are really saying the very same thing with different words. I realized then that Paul was STILL on the subject of the rapture, but giving us TIMING information.

Next, God showed me that the "sudden destruction" would come at the same moment as the rapture.

In other words, the dead in Christ rise, creating a worldwide earthquake: which is the "sudden destruction." At this same moment in time, two groups of people get two different results.

1. Those living in the light of the gospel get raptured and so escape the sudden destruction.
2. Those living in darkness GET the sudden destruction and cannot escape it, for it will be worldwide.

Next, I saw that this sudden destruction was the start of God's wrath, which is why Paul wrote that God would not set any appointments with His wrath for us - we will NOT BE here for His wrath. His wrath comes in His DAY: "Day of the Lord" and "day of His wrath" are synonyms.

Previous to learning all this, God spent months teaching me chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation, the context of the seals. If you wish, later I can go over how and what He taught there. For now, just notice 5:6. Notice that this "lamb having been slain" was not in the throne room before. He JUST arrived, having just be found worthy to break the seals. Why and how? This also tells us He has JUST risen from the dead to be found worthy. John and the Holy Spirit are showing us TIMING. The TIME? The very moment Jesus ascended into heaven, having just told Mary not to hold onto Him. Remember, this is the CONTEXT for the seals.

Notice what happened: the very moment Jesus ascended, the first thing on His mind is to get the scroll and begin breaking the seals. To keep this short, seals 1-5 were broken then, around 32 AD.
Seal 1 is to represent the CHURCH sent out to spread the gospel, and the gospel going out to all the world.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure, that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Stephen and the other disciples are in that group at that time. I puzzeled for some time on the meaning of why they had to wait. Martyrs are killed in different ways: some beheaded, some fed to lions, some killed with the sword, etc. This is not what John meant. They had to wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. You see, the very next martyr after the rapture will be a "Day of the Lord" martyr, not a church age martyr. So in effect, they were told they must wait for the end of the church age.

The very next thing John covers is the 6th seal. So in effect they have to wait from the 5th seal to the 6th seal! How nice, John! In fact, the entire church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal now for almost 2000 years.

Paul's rapture fits right there: right between these two seals. When the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a great earthquake - the very same earthquake as seen at the 6th seal. John tells us that the DAY comes there as "the day of His wrath has come."

It was NO accident then that God showed John the raptured church in heaven RIGHT AFTER the 6th seal as the great crowd too large to number.

Next, God told me in words I heard and understood that the entire 70th week would be "clearly marked" so when I found the midpoint and what marked the midpoint, I would know the beginning and the end for it would be the same "marker." I discovered, with His help, that the 70th week is marked by the 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial. Therefore this great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven BEFORE John begins the 70th week or what people call "the trib."

You have never even commented on these proofs of a pretrib rapture.
You have never commented on HOW you will get to the marriage and supper that will be held in heaven before Jesus returns to earth as in Rev. 19.

You see, there really is MUCH proof of a pretrib rapture in scripture, and no proof of a posttrib.

if we put Mark's and/or Luke's with Matthews, the gathering will be from "the uttermost parts of heaven to the uttermost parts of the earth." Personally I find that a strange way to say a gathering from around the earth. Why mention heaven at all? But it is possible this could mean the atmosphere around the earth, the AIR.

Question: is God not allowed ANY OTHER gathering than Paul's without many jumping on it and claiming without proof that it is Paul's gathering? In my mind they CANNOT be the same, simply because Paul's timing does not agree.

Everything you or others have claimed to be a clear revealing of a pretrib rapture does not say that.

Please show me anything I have said that is clearly against any scripture.

there's nothing that necessitates a pre-tribulation rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4

True, but put chapters 4 & 5 together as Paul wrote it. Add to it what John wrote in John 14. No scripture stands alone. We have to put them all together.

2 thes. 2 agrees with Paul in 1 Thes. But a quick read seems to be just the opposite. It is a difficult scripture to get the intent of the Author. One key is to see that in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED....not going to be in Paul's argument - but Is at that moment in time.

A Second key is Paul wrote, "and now you know..." in verse 6.
If you have not done it, look this up in the greek Blueletter bible, and click on G646,
then on Root word feminine form G647
then on neuter form G868
then on G575....APO the first word in the compound word apostisia.
Then read what "apo" means in the Greek.

"of separation of a part from the whole - where of a whole some part is taken"

I'll eat my hat if this is not exactly what will happen at the rapture.

Paul is telling us "and now you know" WHO or what is doing the restraining and who will be "taken out of the way."

WE will be taken out of the way via the gathering.

You see, verses 6,7 & 8 tell us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way," yet in verse 3b he IS REVEALED, meaning He was revealed sometime before. Yet, HOW unless the one restraining has been taken out of the way?

So somewhere in verse 3a the one restraining has been "taken out of the way." So the THEME of this passage, the "gathering" has been satisfied right here in teh word "apostasia."
 
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keras

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If no one goes to heaven,how does Christ bring them from there at His return?
He doesn't; no living person is there.
Jesus Returns with His angelic armies, bringing with Him the souls of the martyrs. Matthew 16:27
 
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