All Christians at 1 Corinthians 15 become immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
People who are not Christians prior to His return are not immortal (e.g., any other humans who happen to survive) and neither are those people born in the Millennium--both can still die.
Opinions. I told you it was my opinion, not my faith. The passage of time will tell if I'm right or wrong.
The army circled Jericho seven times on the seventh day. There's no reason why seven trumpets/bowls can't happen on the seventh year. I don't know if it will, but this is my guess unless I can see that I am wrong.
You are just as opinionated, just as likely to give me your theories, and also you are not listening to me. But you claim your theory of Pre-Tribulation Rapture as authoritative.
The heavens are the sky God created.
Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
There's nothing to suggest the rapture happens in heaven (as in, where God dwells), but the event is a resurrection/rapture in the heavens (as in, the sky, where the clouds reside). The resurrection applies to the dead in Christ. The rapture applies to the people in Christ who haven't died.
There's no point, Psalm3704. Everything you or others have claimed to be a clear revealing of a pretrib rapture does not say that.
As I said, there's nothing that necessitates a pre-tribulation rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4. Most argue that Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians because false teachers were coming to them and telling them the gathering (rapture) already happened (and that they had missed it). This was worrying them, apparently. It is this false teaching (that Christians could miss the rapture) that Paul corrects in 2 Thessalonians 2.
And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 refers to a Second Coming/Post Tribulation Rapture--the return of Christ and "the gathering" on "that Day" which is, by context, after the Tribulation has started (because of the revealing of the antichrist and great apostasy).
There's no point in continuing to beat the dead horse.
"I don't think you know" is such a disrespectful way of addressing someone.
There are seven trumpets in Revelation. You know where to look.
I haven't been ignoring your questions, and I haven't been changing the subject. You are doing plenty of talking.
Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not conclusively shown in the Bible. You would never even get the idea unless you made it up or heard it from someone outside of the Bible. For example, evolutionists decided there must be an Oort Cloud since they needed some explanation for comets existing billions of years into the universe. They must hold to billions of years for the universe. They are unwilling to consider thousands of years because that would force them to believe in a Creator. The same thing also applies to the millions or billions of years people try to accommodate in Genesis 1 - it is taking man's ideas as authoritative rather than subjecting man's ideas to the authority of the Word of God.
Look, Psalm3704, you aren't my Father. You should be able to have a discussion without being condescending.
You are rude.
Let God be the judge.
No; I hear lots of theories that I think, "Oh, that's interesting. That could be." For example, my friend thinks that the Islamic eschatology lined up with Biblical eschatology so perhaps the Mahdi is the beast from the sea (Antichrist, Seal 1) and the Islamic Jesus is the beast from the earth, or the false prophet. We don't know for sure, but I accept that the theory doesn't violate clear Scripture.
If you haven't noticed, I'm responding to your questions. That's all I'm doing.
I know I am not right about everything but there's a difference when I think Scripture is authoritative about something or not. I could be wrong about my Tribulation timeline guess.
I don't think there's any point in you and I talking anymore, Psalm3704.
I hope you will allow me to come into this conversation. I have asked you questions you have ignored. I guessed at the answer because you did not tell me otherwise. I am referring to Acts 1 & 2. I do hope you will answer. But back to this conversation. You say the ONLY way one come come up with pretrib is with preconceptions. I beg to differ.
A few years ago God pushed me, heels dragging, into studying Revelation. I KNEW it was His will, but I was reluctant. Before that my older brother tried his best to get me interested and now I can see it was the Holy Spirit through him also.
Finally I gave up resisting and began to read. For three or four years I read NOTHING in the bible but Revelation and Ends times scriptures in the Old Testament. I already KNEW How to get the Holy Spirit to teach me, for I learned that before. So I just read and read and purposely did NOT try to understand or reason anything. I TOLD God I would know nothing unless He taught me. I would come with a clean slate. So I PURPOSELY did not try to understand. I wanted for Him. So I read and praying in the Holy Spirit - a LOT. In case you are not familiar with that, Paul taught that praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues. Paul prayed in tongues more than all of them, and Paul had more revelation knowledge than any other apostle. These two go together: tongues and revelation.
One day while reading Daniel 9:27 when My eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke. I heard His voice and His words. They sounded audible, as if any in the room would have heard. He said, "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I asked Him how and He said:
"every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time: when you find the mentions of this 3 1/2 year period of time, you will be VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint."
This was the first of many times God spoke to teach me Revelation. He taught me much on Rev. 4 & 5 and 12 and some things in other chapters. He also gave me revelation knowledge on 1 thes. 5. I was not smart enough to know much of ANYTHING on my own. But on the things He has taught me, I can be very dogmatic" I know it is truth. Also note that He ALWAYS taught by using scripture.
You say the ONLY way one come come up with pretrib is with preconceptions. I laid aside EVERYTHING about end times and waited to see what He would teach me. I had no idea if pre, mid, or post was truth.
If you did not have Matthew 24, John 6 and 2 thes. 2 for your posttrib theory, what is left? I have said over and over that Paul and Paul alone received Revelation knowledge of the rapture. We have to find the timing in his writings, and perhaps confirm it elsewhere. That is why I back my belief on 1 & 2 thes. and Revelation to confirm.
You have never commented on 1 Thes. 5. Perhaps you just don't believe what I have written about that. Here is the first key God showed me:
"so shall we ever be with the Lord" and
"get to live together with Him"
are really saying the very same thing with different words. I realized then that Paul was STILL on the subject of the rapture, but giving us TIMING information.
Next, God showed me that the "sudden destruction" would come at the same moment as the rapture.
In other words, the dead in Christ rise, creating a worldwide earthquake: which is the "sudden destruction." At this same moment in time, two groups of people get two different results.
1. Those living in the light of the gospel get raptured and so escape the sudden destruction.
2. Those living in darkness GET the sudden destruction and cannot escape it, for it will be worldwide.
Next, I saw that this sudden destruction was the start of God's wrath, which is why Paul wrote that God would not set any appointments with His wrath for us - we will NOT BE here for His wrath. His wrath comes in His DAY: "Day of the Lord" and "day of His wrath" are synonyms.
Previous to learning all this, God spent months teaching me chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation, the context of the seals. If you wish, later I can go over how and what He taught there. For now, just notice 5:6. Notice that this "lamb having been slain" was not in the throne room before. He JUST arrived, having just be found worthy to break the seals. Why and how? This also tells us He has JUST risen from the dead to be found worthy. John and the Holy Spirit are showing us TIMING. The TIME? The very moment Jesus ascended into heaven, having just told Mary not to hold onto Him. Remember, this is the CONTEXT for the seals.
Notice what happened: the very moment Jesus ascended, the first thing on His mind is to get the scroll and begin breaking the seals. To keep this short, seals 1-5 were broken then, around 32 AD.
Seal 1 is to represent the CHURCH sent out to spread the gospel, and the gospel going out to all the world.
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure, that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Stephen and the other disciples are in that group at that time. I puzzeled for some time on the meaning of why they had to wait. Martyrs are killed in different ways: some beheaded, some fed to lions, some killed with the sword, etc. This is not what John meant. They had to wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. You see, the very next martyr after the rapture will be a "Day of the Lord" martyr, not a church age martyr. So in effect, they were told they must wait for the end of the church age.
The very next thing John covers is the 6th seal. So in effect they have to wait from the 5th seal to the 6th seal! How nice, John! In fact, the entire church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal now for almost 2000 years.
Paul's rapture fits right there: right between these two seals. When the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a great earthquake - the very same earthquake as seen at the 6th seal. John tells us that the DAY comes there as "the day of His wrath has come."
It was NO accident then that God showed John the raptured church in heaven RIGHT AFTER the 6th seal as the great crowd too large to number.
Next, God told me in words I heard and understood that the entire 70th week would be "clearly marked" so when I found the midpoint and what marked the midpoint, I would know the beginning and the end for it would be the same "marker." I discovered, with His help, that the 70th week is marked by the 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial. Therefore this great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven BEFORE John begins the 70th week or what people call "the trib."
You have never even commented on these proofs of a pretrib rapture.
You have never commented on HOW you will get to the marriage and supper that will be held in heaven before Jesus returns to earth as in Rev. 19.
You see, there really is MUCH proof of a pretrib rapture in scripture, and no proof of a posttrib.
if we put Mark's and/or Luke's with Matthews, the gathering will be from "the uttermost parts of heaven to the uttermost parts of the earth." Personally I find that a strange way to say a gathering from around the earth. Why mention heaven at all? But it is possible this could mean the atmosphere around the earth, the AIR.
Question: is God not allowed ANY OTHER gathering than Paul's without many jumping on it and claiming without proof that it is Paul's gathering? In my mind they CANNOT be the same, simply because Paul's timing does not agree.
Everything you or others have claimed to be a clear revealing of a pretrib rapture does not say that.
Please show me anything I have said that is clearly against any scripture.
there's nothing that necessitates a pre-tribulation rapture from 1 Thessalonians 4
True, but put chapters 4 & 5 together as Paul wrote it. Add to it what John wrote in John 14. No scripture stands alone. We have to put them all together.
2 thes. 2 agrees with Paul in 1 Thes. But a quick read seems to be just the opposite. It is a difficult scripture to get the intent of the Author. One key is to see that in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED....not going to be in Paul's argument - but Is at that moment in time.
A Second key is Paul wrote, "and now you know..." in verse 6.
If you have not done it, look this up in the greek Blueletter bible, and click on G646,
then on Root word feminine form G647
then on neuter form G868
then on G575....APO the first word in the compound word apostisia.
Then read what "apo" means in the Greek.
"of separation of a part from the whole - where of a whole some part is taken"
I'll eat my hat if this is not exactly what will happen at the rapture.
Paul is telling us "and now you know" WHO or what is doing the restraining and who will be "taken out of the way."
WE will be taken out of the way via the gathering.
You see, verses 6,7 & 8 tell us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way," yet in verse 3b he IS REVEALED, meaning He was revealed sometime before. Yet, HOW unless the one restraining has been taken out of the way?
So somewhere in verse 3a the one restraining has been "taken out of the way." So the THEME of this passage, the "gathering" has been satisfied right here in teh word "apostasia."