Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[keras]

Jesus is already our High Priest forever (Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 8:1-2) and the prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5.)

Spiritually but not physically. For now: Satan is the Prince of this world. John 14:30

Isaiah 66:21 was speaking of Christians. We are priests in Christ (Revelation 1:6) and we are built up a priesthood for God (1 Peter 2:5-10.) Ezekiel received a prophetic vision of the building which we are, the New Jerusalem, a temple made not by the labor of hands, continuously offering sacrifices of praise to God. Jesus himself is the foundation.

The specific prophesies given in Ezekiel 40-44 undeniably refer to a physical Temple. In this Church era, the true ekklasia of righteous believers are His spiritual Temple, but there must come the reality; as is shown in Revelation 11:1-2

I don't understand how what Paul was saying applies to Christ reinstituting a physical temple on earth, when Paul most extensively wrote about how God has made a new, better covenant that does not need continual sacrifice of flesh, and how the old covenant has waxed and decayed.

You don't understand because that is all you have been taught and what the Apostles told us has applied for nearly 2000 years. There will never again be animal sacrifices for sins, but God required a Temple twice before and He will have another and its glory will exceed that of the former ones. Haggai 2:9

Now, you can say ivebeenshown!

 

[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 5262:

What about the trumpet being blown immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31? Is this not the last trumpet of the tribulation?

It will be the last trump referred to by 1 Corinthians 15:52, but it won't be the last trumpet of the tribulation, because it won't sound during the tribulation, but after the tribulation.

Also, regarding the last trumpet of the tribulation, which is the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it's not the same as the 2nd coming/last trump in Matthew 24:31, because the 7th trumpet doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

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Psalm3704 said in post 5268:

Why should the church, who's been an obedient follower of Christ over the last 2000 years have to endure the tribulation as the 144,000 of Israel and not be sealed and protected also?

Note that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww said in post 5263:

The best case I can find in Rev 11 against this is verse 10 the words “these two prophets” this is the closest scripture comes to calling them two men.

Note that the 2 witnesses can simply be 2 individual prophets who will prophesy in sackcloth for 1,260 literal days (Revelation 11:3), before they are martyred and their 2 dead bodies lie unburied in a street in Jerusalem for 3.5 literal days (Revelation 11:8-12).

These 2 prophets being the 2 "olive trees" and the 2 "candlesticks" (Revelation 11:4) simply means that each one of the 2 prophets is represented by both one olive tree and one candlestick (Zechariah 4:11-14, Matthew 5:15-16, Psalms 52:8).

Also, the future raising of the 2 witnesses' physical bodies from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's physical resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the physical bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future, physical ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's physical rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the physical bodies of Elijah and Enoch into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Hebrews 11:5).

For the 2 witnesses' physical resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's physical resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the 2 witnesses, like Elijah and Enoch did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetime: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend all the way into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 

[Bible2+]

Luke17:37 said in post 5274:

Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet.

That's right.

For Revelation 12:7-9 hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

Luke17:37 said in post 5274:

Revelation 12 started before the birth of Jesus and continues until the last days of the Tribulation . . .

Actually, in Revelation 12:5 the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

Luke17:37 said in post 5274:

{Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, ... Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}

Actually, the trumpets and bowls/vials aren't the same events. For the trumpets will occur before the vials and affect only 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7 to 9:18), whereas the vials will affect things in their entirety (Revelation 16). The 7 plagues of the 7 vials will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

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Luke17:37 said in post 5276:

It's not secret in the sense of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching where the Christians disappear and others don't see it.

That's right.

But the mistaken, pre-tribulation-rapture view sometimes still asserts that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But the truth is that not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5277:

Who Confirmed The Covenant?

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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BABerean2 said in post 5300:

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Note that the day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus' 2nd coming, obedient believers' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 don't require that every initially saved person will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption, for some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

BABerean2 said in post 5300:

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:13 can refer to Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16), which occurs sometime after coming into faith (Acts 19:2a,6), while some lesser measure of the Spirit must be received by anyone before he can believe (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Everyone, both believers and unbelievers, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they are able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Believers have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to understand and believe the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they are able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of the Holy Spirit which believers have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption isn't assured for every believer, just as a down payment on a house doesn't always assure the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit doesn't take away believers' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Bible2+]

ivebeenshown said in post 5282:

God said he will make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the earth (Zephaniah 1:18) . . .

Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

ivebeenshown said in post 5282:

. . . and that it will be like the days of Noah (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:37-39.)

Note that Matthew 24:37-39, like Luke 17:27,29, doesn't mean that all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

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ivebeenshown said in post 5283:

On the contrary, we see both the good and the bad receiving their everlasting consequences at Jesus' coming in Matthew 25:31-46.

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

ivebeenshown said in post 5283:

This statement assumes that the resurrection and reigning envisioned by the prophet represents the bodily resurrection of the Church rather than the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul (Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1) and where John says God has made us priests and kings (Revelation 1:5-6).

Note that while Christians are kings and priests now (Revelation 1:6; 1 Peter 2:9), and are in the kingdom's spiritual aspect now (Romans 14:17), they aren't yet in the kingdom's physical aspect (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) which will exist on the earth during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Also, while there is indeed the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

ivebeenshown said in post 5283:

Correct, at which point the tares are all cast into eternal fire.

Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

ivebeenshown said in post 5283:

This statement requires either the assumption that the binding in the pit is literal . . .

The binding of Satan by an angel in Revelation 20:1-3, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), will involve Satan being bound with a literal, spiritual chain, just as the bottomless pit, which at that time Satan will be cast down into and locked within, is a literal, spiritual place.

In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

*******

ivebeenshown said in post 5298:

Ezekiel received a prophetic vision of the building which we are, the New Jerusalem, a temple made not by the labor of hands, continuously offering sacrifices of praise to God. Jesus himself is the foundation.

Regarding the church being New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19, the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 5284:

He LOVES US and has planned to remove us before His wrath is poured out.

Are you thinking of the following verses?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If so, note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

For example, the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

*******

iamlamad said in post 5290:

Therefore, in which of these two resurrections was Jesus the "firstfruits" of?

Note that the 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Luke 24:39); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Romans 8:23-25), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[Bible2+]

bibletruth469 said in post 5293:

Obedience is not the issue, salvation is . . .

Note that these are not mutually exclusive, because Jesus is "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

That is, initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Psalm3704]

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

Mat 13:21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom_5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom_12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2Co_1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Co_7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th_3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) andI knowthe blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, bu tare the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Leviticus 4:27
‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty,

Genesis 44:15
And Joseph said to them, “What deed is this you have done? Did you not know that such a man as I can certainly practice divination?”

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Daniel 10:21
But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Genesis 2:10
Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads.

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

Hebrews 13:9
Don’t be misled by the many strange teachings out there. It’s a good thing for the heart to be strengthened by grace rather than by food. Food doesn’t help those who live in this context.










.

 

[Psalm3704]

After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1).

That's right. There's no post trib rapture, the rapture happens before the end.

But how do you know the number of the church being rapture will be 144,000?

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16);

Yes, those rapture will go to heaven: to the throne room of God. But how do you know the other part of the church left behind is 2 parts? The bible does not tell us how many christians will not make it.

Revelation 12:6,14-16 doesn't tell us that. It tells us the woman (who is figuratively Israel) will flee to the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Nice try, no cigar but you get to try again next time.







.






.

 

[Psalm3704]

Why DO people believe in a rapture removal to heaven? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is part of God's plan for his chosen peoples. Such a belief is contrary to what Jesus taught and is simply an escapist false doctrine.

Keras,

You might wants to talk to your partner in crime who believes the church will be taken into heaven: in the throne room of God. Read below.

Apparently he also believes in 2 other parts of the church being left behind to endure the antichrist's reign.

After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16);

.

 

[Psalm3704]

Have you considered that one way or another the Last Trumpet that Paul is talking about at the time of our gathering to meet Jesus in the air will not sound before the Tribulation.

That in itself put an end to the belief of a pre-tribulation rapture .

Riberra,

1) All I need to do is take the comment you wrote and change just two words to completely debunk everything you've said. Your opinion carry no weight when it has no support.

Have you considered that one way or another the Last Trumpet that Paul is talking about at the time of our gathering to meet Jesus in the air will not sound after the Tribulation.

That in itself put an end to the belief of a post-tribulation rapture .​

2) Here's another rebuttal. Where did Paul say at the last trump, we meet Jesus in the air in 1 Cor 15:50-55?

3) Here's another rebuttal. Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:50, and not die (immortality): 1 Corinthians 15:53-56.

Why would Paul say we will no longer be made of flesh and not die when Isaiah told us in the millennium, we will can still produce babies, and have children to be 100 years old and live longer lives but still die?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 NKJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


Isaiah 65:17-20 NKJV
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
​

Go ahead Riberra, explain!








.

 

[n2thelight]

Riberra,

1) All I need to do is take the comment you wrote and change just two words to completely debunk everything you've said. Your opinion carry no weight when it has no support.

Have you considered that one way or another the Last Trumpet that Paul is talking about at the time of our gathering to meet Jesus in the air will not sound after the Tribulation.

That in itself put an end to the belief of a post-tribulation rapture .​

2) Here's another rebuttal. Where did Paul say at the last trump, we meet Jesus in the air in 1 Cor 15:50-55?

3) Here's another rebuttal. Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:50, and not die (immortality): 1 Corinthians 15:53-56.

Why would Paul say we will no longer be made of flesh and not die when Isaiah told us in the millennium, we will can still produce babies, and have children to be 100 years old and live longer lives but still die?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 NKJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


Isaiah 65:17-20 NKJV
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
​

Go ahead Riberra, explain!








.

You don't have Isaiah right.....

 

[Psalm3704]

It is not the same thing as all the rest you mentioned,

You didn't bother to check, otherwise you would know what I was talking about. The only other possibility is you read it but it didn't sink in.

Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.

The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.

And there's no conflict between Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 20:4-6.

Again. Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20. See if you can figure out why it looks like conflicting scriptures.

The fact is, there is no conflict in the bible. Just people's interpretation of scriptures.

Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet. The judgments and the background information are not presented sequentially. For example, Revelation 12 started before the birth of Jesus and continues until the last days of the Tribulation, when the non- sealed Christians (as in, those who aren't among the 144,000 Jews) are martyred by the government of the beast/false prophet.

Check out how the seventh trumpet is described. He has reigned. He is rewarding His servants. There is the same basic description in the seventh bowl "It is finished" and the same plagues. There isn't 42 months after the seventh trumpet/bowl. They are the end.

You're not reading it correctly. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (figuratively Israel) is protected in the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:14 NKJV
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.​

In Revelation 13:5, the antichrist becomes the beast and reigns for 42 months (3.5 years).

Revelation 13:5 NKJV
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.​

If these events continue for another 3.5 years, it makes it impossible the 7th trumpet to happen near the end of the tribulation.

You don't want to read it. "That Day" doesn't have to be anyways here else. I showed you how it's in 2 Thessalonians 2, referring to the return of Christ and the gathering or rapture of the Church--after the revealing of the Antichrist and the great apostasy.

Here is "that Day" Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:3, it's located in 2 Thess 1:10.

2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is about the second coming when Christ comes in vengeance and judgement, not the rapture.

Paul was saying in 2 Thess 2:3 that that Day of the second coming (not the rapture) will not come until the a/c be revealed first.

Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians? No! You won't! The rapture is in the book of 1st Thessalonians.

Do you know why two of the shortest books in the entire bible are 1st and 2nd Thessalonians? Why would Paul write two books and not combine them both if the rapture and the second coming are the same thing? Because they're NOT, and Paul put the rapture in the first book.

Rapture happens first in the first book (1st Thess). Tribulation and second coming happens after as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. They are separate events!

It's a PreTrib rapture!

All translations below say that day in 2 Thess 1:10, some even used an upper case D for the day.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) Ondestruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (GNT) when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Kehillah in Thessalonika II 1:10 (OJB) When He comes to be glorified in His Kadoshim and to be marveled at in all the ma’aminim [in Moshiach] because our [martyr’s] eidus (T.N. The word can mean witness al kiddush ha-Shem) to you was believed in YOM HAHU ("that Day" YESHAYAH 2:11).

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html


Now, would you like to know what the gathering is at the end of the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

I can show you what that is in scriptures too, not mere theory. Actually I don't make theories. I always check numerous other scriptures for references to be sure. The bible said test the spirits. You never know when it's a deceptive spirit misleading you instead of the holy spirit guiding you.

If you want to insist in your own mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a secret pre-first resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation 20 includes the beheaded of the Tribulation), there's nothing I can say.

Where did I mention anything about a secret rapture? Can you show me please?









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[Douggg]

Where do you see the end of one millennium and the start of the next in Revelation?

The year 2000 was the end of two thousand years since Jesus's first coming.. We are into the next thousand years right now by 16 years. So the question you ask is somewhat flawed because the bible end times timeline does not not appear coincide with the end of millenniums, exactly. The millennial rule of Jesus is just a figure of speech to represent a thousand years.

Now if Jesus returned to this earth in the year 2033. 2000 years from his crucifixion - then wouldn't that be something pretty amazing. Which would put the begining of the 7 years 2026.

I personally don't know if our year 2016 AD means After Jesus's birth or after his crucifixion. Somebody, please chim in.

 

[Psalm3704]

You don't have Isaiah right.....

That's just your opinion.

When did you ever have anything concerning bible prophecy right?

 

[BABerean2]

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

You have found an antichrist not even mentioned in Daniel chapter 9 and have taken a covenant confirmed by Christ in His own words and turned it into a treaty broken by this invisible antichrist. You have accomplished this by adding a manmade "gap" of unknown length, to a specific time prophecy of 490 years.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV


Your interpretation also means that the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant foretold by Jeremiah.
Maybe Jeremiah forgot to tell Gabriel about it.


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

You also continue to insist that a temple made with hands will be the temple of God.


Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Joh 2:20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

The New Testament temple is Jesus Christ and those indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

However, those promoting John Darby's doctrine will like your version better.

The History of Dispensationalism in America by Ernest Reisinger
Founders- a periodical of historic Baptist principles

http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/


Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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[Psalm3704]

Unrelated topic "Watch Turkey"

So what about Turkey?









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[iamlamad]

As someone else stated (not exactly like this) in a previous post....the 5 foolish virgins expected to be raptured in Heaven for a 7 years marriage feast before the true and only coming of Jesus yet to come...so they falled short on oil.

Ha Ha Ha! Nice try! In fact, almost brilliant, since I am the one warning people that they will be left behind.
Sadly though, your answer is entirely unscriptural.

Here was my question:
What then or who then are the 5 foolish virgins who did have lamps lit, signifying they did have oil? WHY were they locked out? What is the Author trying to tell us here?

Please tell us, what would you say is your strongest posttrib scripture to back up your statement.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus is already our High Priest forever (Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 8:1-2) and the prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5.)

I really expected more from you than this: you know Jesus is not reigning as king in the same way He will be during the 1000 years. For example, WHERE IS HE? Why are people not going to where He is to worship Him and see His glory?
Isa. 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isaiah 66:21 was speaking of Christians. We are priests in Christ (Revelation 1:6) and we are built up a priesthood for God (1 Peter 2:5-10.)
Sorry, but this is not the intent of the Author in this passage:
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

This speaks loudly that these are JEWS and Hebrews he is talking about.

Ezekiel received a prophetic vision of the building which we are, the New Jerusalem, a temple made not by the labor of hands, continuously offering sacrifices of praise to God. Jesus himself is the foundation.

I don't understand how what Paul was saying applies to Christ reinstituting a physical temple on earth, when Paul most extensively wrote about how God has made a new, better covenant that does not need continual sacrifice of flesh, and how the old covenant has waxed and decayed.

Why do you miss the obvious? The moment the pretrib rapture takes place, the age of grace is over. This is signified by the closed door for the 5 foolish virgins. It will be Day of the Lord and DANIEL'S 70th week time. Go back and read what Daniel said: the 70th weeks concern HIS people, not Gentiles. Of course the Old Covenant will be Old. I think in all bibles it is called "the Old Testament." But it will not be finished until the 70th week is finished. After the nation of Israel REJECTED Jesus as their Messiah after many proofs, God created a parentheses for the Gentile church age. This parentheses is almost over. When Jesus answered their questions about the end of the age, it was about the end of THEIR age, not the end of OUR age, as in the closed door.

For centuries, God had the Jews performing sacrifices, to cover their sins for a year. We know now this was only a shadow until the REAL could come: a sacrifice in waiting for centuries. I think the sacrifices in the future will be the same kind of a thing: sacrifices looking BACK to the ultimate sacrifice. For sure there will be a millennial temple and sacrifices. Ezekiel tells us that much.