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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by tanzel, May 25, 2015.

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  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    NO! It does NOT follow! Jesus' resurrection has to be included in one or the other of the two resurrections John mentions here. There will only be two, and not three or four. One is for the righteous, and one is for the damned. If Jesus was not a part of the righteous, then you must include Him in the other.

    Did you really think this through? You are thinking in linear time here. John was thinking in VALUE or RESPECT or QUALITY.
    The truth is, Jesus was the firstfruits of the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection. Those beheaded will also be a part of this best or chiefest resurrection, for it is the resurrection of the righteous. Therefore TIME is not included in what John wrote. You are thinking time, John was thinking quality. If you have not, please look up the Greek word translated "first" and notice that it was also translated other ways.

    It was the Greek word prōtos

    he KJV translates Strongs G4413 in the following manner: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), misc (7x).

    Here is an example:
    Mar 10:44
    And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, G4413 shall be servant of all.

    In case you don't know, this is easily done in Blueletter bible online. Look up the verse and click on "tools." Scroll down and click on Strong's Greek number for that word.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    VERY good points!
     
  3. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 15:51-52 is the sister passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 they fit together as gloves in hands. Do you not see how both passages harmonize with each other ?You seem to believe that Paul was teaching about a different outcome in 1 Cor 15:51-52 not happening at the same time that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Unto the Coming of the Lord...

    1 Corinthians 15
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    *The WE in 1 Corinthians 15:51 refers to the believers in Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  4. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    I do know Him. Have you ever read Acts? Do you realize what Paul and the early Christians went through in order to advance the gospel of Jesus Christ--and even just to live without denying Him? If your view of God persists in being so narrow, you are at great risk for disowning Him.

    Please don't! Read the book of Acts. Do a word study on persecution in the New Testament. Read Revelation and see how most of the faithful are given into Satan's hand to be killed.

    You ask what is the purpose of the Church suffering intense persecution. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean there isn't a good reason. It builds character and identification with Christ. We suffer as Jesus did. The gospel spreads faster by the blood of the Church. Do you realize God used persecution to spread the gospel initially? Jesus commanded them to go into all the world and preach the gospel, in Jerusalem, and Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Persecution is in part what caused people to go from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the ends of the earth with the gospel. When confronted with death, the blood of Christians testify to the world that following Christ is more important to them than anything. They know they have an eternity with Christ on the other side of death. People take note of their joy and their willingness to follow Him wherever He leads. It transcends normal human behavior and testifies to the Spirit of God working in their lives.

    Persecution and wrath are not the same thing. Persecution is promised to all believers. Wrath is poured out on the wicked. In the trumpet/bowl judgments, the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers in Jesus are protected from the wrath. Initially, the trumpets/bowls affect only those with the mark of the beast. By the fifth trumpet, they afflict everyone who isn't sealed (that is, everyone except the 144,000). Personally I believe it is impossible for Christians to survive the Tribulation unless they are one of the 144,000, which is something no one should assume. I believe we all need to be ready to pay the price. Jesus died the most horrible death to give salvation to sinners who deserve everlasting death. Who are we to tell Him what He can't ask of us? Who are we to accuse Him of being unloving?

    Matthew 13:20-21
    20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Don't let your heart be stony ground, iamlamad. It's not worth it. Expand your view of God. He's loving, yes, but He also calls us to take up our cross and follow Him. Sometimes doing that means losing our lives. Sometimes it doesn't.

    Matthew 16:
    24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
     
  5. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    Well, what's the difference between them? If oil is the Holy Spirit, all ten start out Christians. (All ten are certainly professors of Christ since they are looking for the bridegroom.) The difference, then, is that the foolish assumed the bridegroom would come by a certain time while the wise virgins were prepared for a long wait. I am convinced that the foolish virgins could not endure for the long wait because they were caught off guard by the prevalent deceptions and wickedness of the Tribulation. If the oil is the Holy Spirit, they committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--perhaps without even realizing it. For example, they could take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation by reasoning that it either isn't the mark ("This must not be the Tribulation because I'm still here, therefore this isn't the mark") or perhaps, "God wouldn't expect me to starve," or "Chang took the mark of the beast in the Left Behind series and he was still saved" (diabolical teaching) or "my pastor told me once saved always saved, and I'm saved so I'll be fine."
     
  6. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Can you show where in the Scriptures is located that trumpet sounding PRETRIB ?
     
  7. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    rockytopva said:


    It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...


    Most people here believe in the “rapture” . When is the question. It is impossible to read scripture as written and not believe Jesus comes for his church after the tribulation, at the last day, after the falling away, and after the man of sin is revealed. Matt 24:29, John 6: 39, 40,44, & 54, 2 Thess 2:3


    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.- Revelation 13:5


    If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...


    1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot


    Why not?


    2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.


    Christ said He would return “Immediately after the tribulation” Matt 24:29-30

    Paul said He would return after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. 2 thess 2:3


    3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious


    Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


    If this is the verse to which you refer, it says no man knows the day and hour heaven and earth will pass away, no mention of a “rapture” . If you have another verse please post it.


    4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?


    What is the scripture reference that says we return to reign?
     
  8. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    You believe the rapture of the dead and alive is different from the first resurrection. Biblically, why do you believe this? Aren't the dead in Christ raised first and then we who are alive will meet them in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4). If you hold to your assumption, wouldn't that make the first resurrection of Chapter 20 the second resurrection? God's Word can't lie. You should take your assumptions (the teachings you have heard all your life) and examine them in light of God's Word. If they can't stand, take your stand on God's Word.

    Enoch (and Elijah) are special cases. There's no reason to believe they are examples for a pre-tribulation gathering.
     
  9. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting you chose this verse (Revelation 1:7) about every eye seeing Him and wailing because of Him.

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    This gathering of the elect is at the end of the Tribulation, not before. Everyone on earth will know when He appears in the clouds. It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation. The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation.
     
  10. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    Why do the Greek words for "first" "resurrection" matter to you? I can see them but I can't copy them. "He prote" - first - adjective, nominative, singular, feminine" "anastasis" - resurrection - noun, nominative, singular, feminine

    I realize there are only two resurrections and I said that so what's your point? The first resurrection is after the Tribulation and the second resurrection is after the Millennium. (It's possible for Christians to be in the second resurrection since it's possible for them to die during the millennium, but there are only two eternal destinies--Heaven or the Lake of Fire).

    Jesus is the first fruits of those who will be raised to eternal life. Definitely the first resurrection are raised to eternal life. But, there's a possibility some Christians will be in the second resurrection, too.
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    What Paul or ANYONE else went through back then has nothing to do with us at the end of this age. There was not "rapture" for any age but our age. We know there WILL BE a catching up because it is written. The choice seems to be on this thread that this catching up will be at the end of the 70th week or at the beginning. So our differences are only 7 plus years. You have to ask yourself, if only 7 years, WHY NOT BEFORE when the other choice is to beat up and Kill the bride? Do you really imagine that is His will?

    When we put all the end time scriptures together, we know this catching up will be so that we escape God's wrath poured out. Neither can one hope to live through this time of the 70th week and escape His wrath while being left behind at the pretrib rapture. NO ONE ON EARTH will escape His wrath. I could say "no one under the sun..." When God cranks up the heat of the sun it will affect ALL on the earth. Neither can one say they will escape God's wrath but not Satan's wrath, for they are CONCURRENT.

    God's will and word for the DAY will be "the saints will be OVERCOME."

    If your view of God persists in being so narrow, you are at great risk for disowning Him.

    Not at all. I just know the truth in this matter.

    Please don't! Read the book of Acts.

    Did you miss the fact that the book of Acts was the first century church? What does that have to do with the rapture which is still future? I will answer for you: NOTHING. Perhaps you don't understand that all that happened to Christian people in the past was NOT God being angry with them. It was Satan's hatred for them. The future rapture will be so the church can escape God's wrath poured out. Perhaps you need to study 1 Thes. 5 again.

    Do a word study on persecution in the New Testament.

    This would be a non-sequitur. We are at the very end of this age and what happened before in the chuch age has nothing to do with the rapture.

    Read Revelation and see how most of the faithful are given into Satan's hand to be killed.

    Again a non-sequitur. They are given into Satan's hands because they were left behind when God pulled those that believe in Him out from His wrath. In other words, they set their OWN appointment with wrath.

    All your other reasons (in the next paragraph) are only human reasoning that does not fit this discussion. The rapture comes a moment before the judgment where God will judge the entire world. The church - the body of Christ on earth will have no business being judged for we have judged ourselves. This judgment will be God's wrath poured out. If you wish to set your OWN appointment for His wrath, you can, and He will allow it. but don't try to set an appointment for others!

    Persecution and wrath are not the same thing. Persecution is promised to all believers.

    And the church has lived through persecution for much of the church age. So what? It has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. We are at the END of the church age, and judgment is coming. God's plan will be to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

    Wrath is poured out on the wicked.

    EXACTLY! Good point! The Body of Christ is NOT the wicked. That is why God has planned an escape for us. Did you not read Luke 21:36?

    In the trumpet/bowl judgments, the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers in Jesus are protected from the wrath

    Another good point. So please explain, if the Body of Christ is still on the earth, WHY would the Jews be sealed for their protection and NOT THE CHURCH? Another good observation that many here don't believe: that God's wrath is in the trumpet judgments.

    Personally I believe it is impossible for Christians to survive the Tribulation unless they are one of the 144,000, which is something no one should assume.

    Wow! I am beginning to be amazed at your theories! You just said the 144,000 are JEWS. Are you of the "Jehovah's Witness" group that believes ONLY 144,000 will be saved? I surely hope not! Well, they ARE Jews: every one a descendant of Jacob. Meanwhile, most of the Gentile church of today are NOT descendants of Jacob. I guess perhaps you really DO believe that God meant what He said: that the saints would be OVERCOME. Most here simply refuse to believe this.

    Who are we to accuse Him of being unloving?

    This goes back to the very question I asked of you. God IS love. I can assure you, His love for us would prevent Him EVER submitting His beloved to His own wrath! He is not mad at US! His wrath is for the sinners! God has no reason to punish His beloved. Neither will He. That is simply false doctrine. YOU can escape His wrath if you could only believe. If I were you, I would camp out on Luke 21:36.

    The secret of the seed sown in stony ground is "yet he has no root in himself." If someone is born again and immediately begins studying God's word, praying, attending church at every opportunity, they WILL grow deep roots.

    You think I am stony ground because I don't believe your posttrib theories? I can assure you, NEITHER DOES JESUS believe your theories.

    I guess you just don't know yet that what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 about the TIMING of the rapture points to only ONE place in Revelation and that is just before the 6th seal. The rapture will come a moment before the earthquake. In fact, the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising around the world. It will be the first worldwide earthquake. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul told us that this sudden destruction will be the start of the DAY and the start of His WRATH. Then, John SAW with his own eyes the raptured church IN HEAVEN right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need? But God gave us still more. We have no appointment with His wrath.


    Romans 5:9
    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Rev 3:10
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Luke 21
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    Every one of these verses is proof of a pretrib rapture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  12. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    While the term "the first resurrection" occurs in Rev 20:5, that is only because it must be contrasted with the second resurrection (of the unjust or the unrighteous) in Rev 20:12.

    As a matter of fact, the first resurrection (of the just) has three phases similar to a Hebrew harvest (1 Cor 15:23,24): (1) Christ the first fruits, (2) then they that are Christ's at His coming (the Rapture) which is the main harvest, and (3) then cometh the end (the Tribulation saints which are the gleanings).

    So once again, the Church does has nothing to do with the universal weeping, wailing, and mourning connected with the Second Coming of Christ. That would be ludicrous.
     
  13. iamlamad

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    I don't think being short on oil has anything to do with time or timing. The rest of your post is simply human reasoning without scripture to back it up. I think the extra oil the wise had was being filled and being continually refilled with the Holy Spirit. Question: HOW did they at Cornelius' house know that the Holy Spirit and filled them? What was their proof?

    Perhaps they just went to church or just called themselves believers but never got Born again? After all, Jesus did say, "i never knew you." Could Jesus said that to someone born again? I have wondered this. Perhaps the real intent of the author here was to know in a personal way, through continual prayer and communication between Jesus and people. Perhaps they did get born again, but then made NO EFFORT to live for God, never prayed and never studied His Word. So they once had oil, but certainly never got filled with the Spirit so had no extra oil.

    Please allow me to ask you a question: did you bypass Acts 1 and 2 as so much of the USA churches have done?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The answer is clear. There is only one Gospel, just as Paul said in Galatians chapter 1.

    The Gospel preached by Paul is the same Gospel preached by Peter and the other Apostles, otherwise Paul would have been cursing Peter and the others.
    It was Peter who preached the Gospel to the Gentiles, first. He could not have been preaching a different Gospel.

    The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation from this point until the end of time.
    It is the same Gospel.

    There is no Plan B.

    Same covenant, same Gospel, which is the Good News of the New Blood Covenant.
    You cannot separate the two.



    Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV



    Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


    Rev_12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    (How can anyone say it has nothing to do with the blood of Jesus?)


    Rev_14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  15. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Did you ever study 1 Thes. 5 where Paul gives is the timing of his rapture?
    Did you never notice that John SAW the raptured church in heaven before he ever started talking of the 70th week?

    If I could guess, you probably could not delineate the 70th week in Revelation: start, midpoint and finish. I do hope you can prove me wrong.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Most pretribbers believe the rapture of the church is PART of the first resurrection. How many times must I remind you that the word "first" there is a translation of a Greek word? Have you ever looked up the Greek word? John was not speaking of sequence or timing! ALL believers will take part in the "first" or primary resurrection, INCLUDING JESUS as the very first one.
     
  17. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Lamad black

    Postvieww blue &red


    Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.


    It IS as much as possible: no one can write of 5 different events going at the same time in a single narrative. But one could write them one at a time.


    I have repeatedly tried to make this point! The seals, trumpets and vials all overlap to some degree and they all end in the same time frame with the return of Christ and Armageddon. I just disagree that you get to decide where all of the “ parentheses” are and define them to meet your doctrinal needs.


    The 42 months of Rev 11:3 ends in Rev 11:7-12. Revelation cannot be in complete chronological order!


    It is a SIDE journey written as a parenthesis. In fact, the end of this side journey in actuality will end in chapter 16.


    We agree it all ends in chapter 16. Jesus comes verse 15 Armageddon begins verse 16 and the 7th vial is poured out. That all aligns with the 7th trumpet when Christ takes the kingdoms of this world, the dead are judged, rewards are given, and Christ destroys them that destroy the earth. Same lightnings voices, thunderings and earthquake and great hail in Rev 11:19 as in Rev 16:18-21. All of this aligns with the 6th seal. Wrath mentioned in 6th seal and 7th trumpet and all the vials are the wrath. You accuse me of rearranging but you do it with your “parentheses” designed to make your theory work.


    As pre tribbers divide it up how does coming to be glorified in His saints and be admired in all them that believe line up with the pre-trib view of the second coming?


    I think this coming is a parallel to His Rev. 19 coming, not his pretrib coming.


    You didn’t answer the point I raised! I know what you believe.
     
  18. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    Very good explanation.
     
  19. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    You misunderstood me. The rapture is part of the first resurrection and this first resurrection happens in stages. The first resurrection is for the righteous only. The second resurrection is entirely different and is for the unbelievers.
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Lamad's answers in dark red. What was your point?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
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