Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Douggg

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The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.
The rapture is the redemption of our bodies from corruptible to incoruptible. There is no reason that the ressurection/rapture can't happen tommorrow. It doesn't have to. But it might. Anytime rapture is the only rapture view that is guaranteed to be correct no matter what. Our reasoning doesn't control the rapture. You may reason post trib. Another pre-trib. Another mid-trib. But each of those could be wrong.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Good observation.

Actually John has 6 different parallel paths going at the same time. But what can a writer do if several things are happening at once? He cannot wrote all 6 at the same time!

Here are the parallels:
1. 42 months of trampling
2. 1260 days of testifying
3. 1260 days of fleeing / protection
4. 3.5 years of feeding and protection
5. 42 months of authority
6. John's main narrative timeline.

I believe John (and God showing the vision) showed us these 5 parallels of the last half of the week in the exact order the countdown will begin. In other words, the countdown for the trampling will begin before the countdown for the authority. I understand that all these are parallel paths to the end of the week. However, John only gives us in depth information on two of the first five parallel paths and that is for the Two witnesses, and the 42 months for the Beast. I consider much of chapter 13 as a parenthesis. Why? Because the start of chapter 14 is still close to the midpoint, not the end of the week. If we ignore these parentheses John's chronology is just straight through the week. However, most readers miss all of the parentheses so have very wild theories on John's chronology.
Alright then, so we do agree that Revelation is not a straight-through chronology, and that certain passages may be parallel events. From what you had been saying about "rearranging Revelation", I was thinking that you believed it was a straight-through literal chronology.

I am convinced that Jesus will come twice more.
Do you mean once before the tribulation, invisibly, and once again at his coming in power and glory?

Why would you think that? God's wrath begins at the beginning of the week and continues on through the week. And Jesus is angry when He comes. So I see just ONE but continued. It takes a while to subdue anger when the cause for the anger continues: people refuse to repent.
I have yet to be convinced that God's wrath occurs parallel to the tribulation rather than after it, especially because God said he will make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the earth (Zephaniah 1:18) and that it will be like the days of Noah (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:37-39.) If it is like the days of Noah and all that dwell in the earth are destroyed quickly, there will be no time for a drawn-out tribulation and nobody who has not 'made it into the Ark' so to speak will have a chance for further salvation.

I recall having seen you call the seven trumpets 'judgments'; where are they called this in Revelation? And what do you make of Joel 1:15-18, considering the day of the Lord is only 'near' or 'at hand' when the person is saying these things which sound very similar to some of the first effects of the trumpets?

You are missing something! The sheep and goat judgment are for those ALIVE.
The parable of the tares will be for those ALIVE.
How do you know this? Jesus did not say 'dead' or 'alive' in regards to either one.

If these are cast straight into the lake of fire, they will be judged only once. if they are cast into hell, they will be judged twice. Is there a verse saying people can only be judged once? Do you believe what John wrote of the white throne judgment for all who are in hell today?
I suppose it is true that the dead would face individual judgment prior to the final judgment at the end of times. Thank you for pointing that out.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
On the contrary, we see both the good and the bad receiving their everlasting consequences at Jesus' coming in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus says this coming is immediately after the days of tribulation in Matthew 24:29-30.

And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).
I have read Zechariah and I did not come away with the same interpretation as you. Same for Ezekiel. I do not understand, especially with the statement about an additional aftermath after the millennium. How is that you are placing a seven year period after the millennium?

Note that premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John the apostle's writing-down of the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur after Jesus' 2nd coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times when a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could search the scriptures for themselves and see that premillennialism is true, as opposed to during the centuries when the amillennial RCC hierarchy kept the scriptures from believers and simply told them what to believe.
Papias' writings were well after Revelation was written. The early Church did not rely solely on the writings of individuals to fortify the truth; there are many things which early commentators established in unity which the Church teaches to this day while there are other things that differed from writer to writer and were later settled by councils.

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened.
This statement assumes that the resurrection and reigning envisioned by the prophet represents the bodily resurrection of the Church rather than the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul (Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1) and where John says God has made us priests and kings (Revelation 1:5-6).

For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).
Correct, at which point the tares are all cast into eternal fire.

Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened.
It requires no such thing. An atemporal heaven would mean that one who died today in Christ would reign with him for eternity, similar to how Christ was slain and we were chosen in Him and the blood of the prophets was spilled from the foundation of the world. See Matthew 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Revelation 13:8.

Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
This statement requires either the assumption that the binding in the pit is literal, or that the binding in the pit necessarily prevents the devil from having any influence at all.

Note that it is also not stated whether the release of Satan from the pit immediately culminates in the battle against the city of God or whether the culmination takes place over a longer period of time.
 
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iamlamad

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A good thing?
Well, God and I don't always agree on what's good. I equate good with comfortable--in my flesh--but He equates it with the saving of souls. So, while I'd love to die in my sleep or be ushered to the clouds, He might send someone to remove my head and maximize the spread of the gospel with my last words (of the Holy Spirit) and my blood. Ultimately, God's my king. I'll follow Him no matter where He leads.

Paul doesn't rapture anyone, and nowhere does he describe a secret rapture of the church. The resurrection/rapture is consistently presented as after the Tribulation, in one way or another, but I'm probably wasting my breath, because it doesn't seem like you are open.
I have never said that Paul's rapture (Paul's because He is the only one that wrote of it) would be "secret." Paul does not say it will be secret. In fact, it may well be visible. But make no mistake, visible or invisible it WILL happen. How can it be "consistantly presented" when Paul was the ONLY presenter?" You are mistaking other verses for the rapture so are getting your timing messed up. Paul gives us the timing, and no one else. John only confirms it. I am certainly not open to false doctrine! You can bet on that. I know what Paul wrote. His rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day and the start of God's wrath. Find the start of God's wrath in Revelation and you find the approximate time of the rapture. You will find it no where else. Just to save you time, God's wrath begins right where John tells us: at the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7.

By the way, in John's narrative, the 70th week or "trib" does not begin until the 7th seal, so the rapture will certainly be PRETRIB. Since God is PRETRIB, of course His rapture will be pretrib.


Are you afraid of losing your head? I don't like to think about it either. That's why I won't watch the ISIS beheading videos.
If it happens, it happens. But I am certainly not going to make my own appointment with God's wrath and certainly plan on escaping these things that are coming. From the 7th seal onward in Revelation I don't plan on being here.

We don't get to choose God's plan. He wrote it before the world was made. I'm seeing all the mental gymnastics you have been going through in your posts to try to convince others (and yourself?) that there is a solid biblical basis for pre-tribulation rapture.
How can just believing what is written be "mental gymnastics?" All the gymnastics are done by posttribbers trying to make the bible say what it doesn't say. Where would posttrib be without Matthew 24 as their cornerstone scripture? I know what Paul wrote. I know that God has another gathering planned that is NOT the rapture of the church. Many people get the "gatherings" mixed up. One comes before the trib, where the saints escape what is coming, while the other comes after the trib and is probably God gathering all for the sheep and goat judgment. OF COURSE there is a solid basis for pretrib: John SAW the raptured church in heaven - in chapter 7 - not in chapter 19 where you think it will be.

By the way, more mental gymnastics are required for posttribbers to get to the marriage. It will take place in heaven before Jesus descends. Just HOW are you going to get there? Without your head?

I'm only on here because I am 100% convinced that the Church needs to be ready to overcome in the Tribulation. I would hate the Church if I was too busy or afraid to share.
You have the "overcome" on the wrong side of this fight: Both John and Daniel said the saints WOULD BE Overcome. How did you get this switched? I have no doubt you are here to help, but with false doctrine, who are you helping? Think about it.

One more thing. There are three back-to-back parables in Matthew 24-25, and they all highlight the perceived lateness (in the eyes of man) of Jesus' return. The only difference between the wise and foolish virgins is that the foolish assumed the bridegroom would come by a certain "early" time relative to his actual schedule. They didn't have enough oil (Holy Spirit) to endure the wait. They are unprepared and their lamps go out. Please, don't be one of them. Don't assume. There are no second chances. When the door is shut, it's shut for good (like Noah's Ark).
After people are left behind (the door closed) they can STILL get to heaven the hard way: REFUSE the mark, endure the torture and lose their head. That way they can still make it to heaven. But WHY go the hard way when Luke tells us we can escape?

If you want to wrestle with God about why you were born in this generation or ask Him why He might allow His Church to go through such pain, wrestle "all night" if you have to. Pray. But, follow Him! He is worthy.

No question He is worthy of all praise. I wonder if you really know His character? Would YOU beat up your wife before you married her? Would you send her into a battle where she is sure to go through proverbial hell and probably lose her head ----for what purpose? For her to prove her love for you? The truth is, that is NOT the character of God! He LOVES US and has planned to remove us before His wrath is poured out.
 
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keras

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This statement assumes that the resurrection and reigning envisioned by the prophet represents the bodily resurrection of the Church rather than the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul (Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1) and where John says God has made us priests and kings (Revelation 1:5-6).
Thanks for pointing out Revelation 1:5-6. But thinking that office for His people is in heaven and in their transformed bodies, is a wrong assumption, totally refuted by Revelation 5:10 And by Isaiah 66:21
I have read Zechariah and I did not come away with the same interpretation as you. Same for Ezekiel. I do not understand, especially with the statement about an additional aftermath after the millennium. How is that you are placing a seven year period after the millennium?
Bible2 is a good, if a little longwinded, expositor of prophecy. But he surely doesn't always get it right!
Placing the G/M war of Ezekiel 38/39 at the end of the Millennium, when another, similar attack will happen, is an error and it is impossible for the 7 year clean up as described, to occur into eternity.
 
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iamlamad

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Alright then, so we do agree that Revelation is not a straight-through chronology, and that certain passages may be parallel events. From what you had been saying about "rearranging Revelation", I was thinking that you believed it was a straight-through literal chronology.

Do you mean once before the tribulation, invisibly, and once again at his coming in power and glory?

I have yet to be convinced that God's wrath occurs parallel to the tribulation rather than after it, especially because God said he will make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the earth (Zephaniah 1:18) and that it will be like the days of Noah (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:37-39.) If it is like the days of Noah and all that dwell in the earth are destroyed quickly, there will be no time for a drawn-out tribulation and nobody who has not 'made it into the Ark' so to speak will have a chance for further salvation.

I recall having seen you call the seven trumpets 'judgments'; where are they called this in Revelation? And what do you make of Joel 1:15-18, considering the day of the Lord is only 'near' or 'at hand' when the person is saying these things which sound very similar to some of the first effects of the trumpets?

How do you know this? Jesus did not say 'dead' or 'alive' in regards to either one.

I suppose it is true that the dead would face individual judgment prior to the final judgment at the end of times. Thank you for pointing that out.

It is as straight through as possible when you have five events to detail or at least mention that all will be happening at the same time. How else could John have written it? However, it is not as bad as it might seem, for he details only two of the 5 periods of time, and does that in the chapter of mention. The rest is his real-time time-line. It is his realtime timeline that is very chronological. Seals first, numbered for sequence, then trumpets numbered for sequence, and finally vials numbered for sequence - not to mention the woes also numbered. I mentioned "rearranging because some here think the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial will be concurrent events. That is about as far fetched as one can get from truth. NO trumpet can or will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, and no vial will be poured out until all seven trumpets have sounded.

I have never said His next coming will be invisible. I rather then perhaps God will allow the world to see us leave. That may be what causes 144,000 Hebrews to believe. It seems the do believe quickly after the rapture. If they believed before they would be PART of the rapture. The truth is, ONLY Paul gives us the timing for the rapture. The rapture cannot be found in the Gospels except perhaps for John 14.

We just have to believe what is written, with no preconceptions. When I read all the Old Tesatment verses on the Day of the Lord, I find the trumpets and vials must be included in the DAY. And that is exactly what I find when I study Paul's timing. And that is exactly what John wrote, that the day of His wrath had come. Furthermore I see His pretrib coming as the TRIGGER for the day. After all it is written that BOTH He and the DAY come as a thief.

I see that you see the comment about Noah much as I do. I see His comments being about the SUDDENNESS of the destruction, not about who was taken and who was left, or what life was like there or anything else about Noah or Lot. The KJV says "FOR" showing us the reason Jesus had in mind to include Noah. Those people had NO IDEA that morning when they would up that it would be their last day on earth. Same with those in Lot's city. Jesus' coming will be the same, NO WARNING. SUDDENLY. That was Jesus' only point about Noah and Lot: people living life just as it was lived around the world TODAY. Nevertheless, John and Daniel show is 7 years of tribulation. It was God's plan. It starts with 1/3 destruction - as if God is telling people HE IS IN CONTROL of all, the sun, the moon, the earth, the seas, the rivers, etc. It see it as God's great mercy to spare any who will repent and believe.

When God begins to destroy the earth, I believe very strongly that it is judgment! One third killed in one trumpet. How could that NOT be judgment?

Revelation 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


In Joel 3 I wonder if "near" means distance, not time. In Old Testament prophesies, I don't think they wrote in a chronological manner the way John did. One verse may mean "now" and the next verse before "now." "Near" or "at hand" in chapter 1 may well be leading up to the start of the Day. In Joel 3 they are close to the time of the battle of Armageddon. In my mind, "the DAY" has been ongoing then for about 7 years.

I don't think 100% of the time, as in 24/7 there will be disaster. There will be times when is seems nothing is about to happen. Like just before Armageddon when the world is gathering their armies. God will call His guests to the great feast, but THEY will be the feast. When destruction comes, it will certainly be in THE DAY...just not the beginning of the day. I guess I don't have a good answer here.

Tares" did Jesus not say to let them (wheat and tares) grow together until the harvest, then gather the tares? They were thrown in the fire to kill them - as one would with a noxious weed. I see the judgment of the Nations as the final test for who will enter the millennial reign of Christ. That would not work if they were dead.
 
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bibletruth469

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In Matthew 13, you find the parable of the tares and the parable of the dragnet. Both repeat these sentiments:
1) The righteous and wicked are growing in the same place
2) Let them grow together until the harvest
3) First, gather the wicked to be burned
4) Then, gather the righteous.

So, we who the Lord has mercifully saved will mingle with the wicked until their destruction. They aren't destroyed before the Tribulation.

There's no biblical reason for you to differentiate 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24. Jesus is going to do the commanding of his angels, therefore He gathers His elect, whether or not angels are involved.

Jesus' return is covered in Revelation 19 and in Revelation 20 it talks about the millennium where Jesus reigns while Satan is chained. Specifically in Revelation 20:4-6 it talks about the beheaded being raised to life and ruling with Christ during the 1,000 years. This is called the First Resurrection, and they are blessed for being part of it. It's at the end of the Tribulation, so there's no way 1 Thessalonians 4 could occur before the Tribulation... otherwise, it would be the second resurrection, since these beheaded are killed during the Tribulation because of the Word of God and because they don't take the mark of the beast. Since elsewhere (1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15) the resurrection of the righteous is described as the entire Church, I'm convinced it is--it's just that God probably has special jobs in His millennial kingdom for those who are beheaded during the Tribulation and that's why they are highlighted. It also places a marker on the timing of the first resurrection/rapture, as I explained. The resurrection of the wicked, and any righteous that die in the millennium, will not occur until after the millennium, Revelation 20:11-15. The sheep and goats separation is at the second resurrection, the final judgment after the millennial reign of Christ.
(Christians and non-Christians are obviously treated differently at the return of the Christ, too.)

You care about truth right? That's why you follow Jesus.
His Word is truth. The words of Scripture matter. God is not a God of confusion, but He wrote the parables because He wanted to teach the elect and keep the truth-haters in the dark (see 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). I think end times teaching is like that. It's not super complicated, but there are lots of differing voices--how do you learn the truth? 1) You seek God honestly and wholeheartedly and ask Him for understanding. 2) You believe His Word (all of it, in its clearest context). 3) You read His Word.

I'm praying you are a lover of truth... even if it means the possibility of facing hard realities in your relationship with Christ. If so, please read on.

Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

So, concerning that day (the day of Jesus return), look at what Jesus said in Luke 17:

Luke 17:31-37
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

I was preconditioned to believe that Jesus was talking about a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church when I would get to verses 34-36. One day when I was reading it, I stopped at verse 37. I could not understand what Jesus was talking about. It seemed like He changed the subject or went into some mysterious allegory. I thought, "Eagles (or vultures) eating the bodies of Christians sounds dishonorable" (it is, by the way... see 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20). "Also, doesn't it say that we will not all die, but we will all be changed (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)? Why would bodies of Christians be left anyway?"
These things bothered me, and so I sought the Lord with all my heart, begging for understanding of what Jesus meant by "where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather." The Lord answered my prayer!

Within a week, I realized this phrase was also found in Matthew 24, so I examined them together, hoping for some insight.

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Jesus is comparing the false returns of Christ with the genuine marks of Christ's return. As everyone sees lightning that flashes from east to west, so everyone will see His return, so it would not be missed or limited to people who exist in a certain geographical or spatial location (e.g., desert, inner room). Jesus repeats this in Luke also, in the passage below.

Jesus warns people not to believe proclamations that He has returned. (Matthew 24:23, 26). These profuse warnings are also given in Luke (17:23):

Luke 17:20-24
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

That's pretty straightforward, right? So, next we'll look at a biblical example Jesus tells us is like the return of Christ--the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Matthew 28:36-44
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

In these passages are the key to understanding the identity of the carcasses, who are taken. Did you see it? Here it is again.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came.

So, reading Luke 17 again:

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

When one person is taken and the other is left, you know where the person who's left is. The disciples question, "Where, Lord?" was not about the left, but the taken. Now we understand that Jesus was saying that they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages are not about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--it's about the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone; and,
2) People will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.

This is also exactly how it is described in Revelation at Jesus' return:

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Revelation 19:21
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

May God bless you.


You mentioned the 1 St resurrection. This is also known as the resurrection of the righteous. The dead in christ will be given a glorifed body and so will the living who will not experience death. Also, the tribulation martyrs are part of this group of the 1 st resurrection.A perfect example and picture of this is in the life of Enoch. He was raptured and never experienced death.I believe that the rapture of dead and alive' in Christ is a separate event.

The great white throne judgement is the second death and is a judgement of unbelievers after the millennium. This is the second resurrection in rev 20. This is a different event from the sheep and goat judgement that will occur after the tribulation. The believers who are represented as sheep who survived the tribulation will be welcome into the 1000 year kingdom while the goats will be cast out.
 
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iamlamad

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1thessalonians4 is not a secret resurrection, it has been discussed extensively in Christian circles, and 250 pages in this thread alone. And it is not just a resurrection, but the changing of the living.

On what exact day of the 2520 day 7 years, is the first resurrection of the millenium? If you don't know, nor can't prove it by text (which you can't), then it too could be called a secret, if a person wants to play around with words.
Where do you see the end of one millennium and the start of the next in Revelation?
 
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Job8

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It's not secret in the sense of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching where the Christians disappear and others don't see it.
Since the rest of the world is not invited to the Resurrection/Rapture, why would anyone other that Christians be present? Only believers are invited, so in that sense it is "secret" from the unbelieving and the ungodly.

The rest of the world will see Christ while weeping, wailing, and mourning, long after the Rapture (Rev 1:7): Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 
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iamlamad

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The great white throne judgment comes after the millennium and the second resurrection and is found in Revelation 20:11-15. It is not the same thing as all the rest you mentioned, which correspond to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 (for all the Church through the return of Christ).



Matthew isn't the author of Scripture. Jesus is. And these are His words. And there's no conflict between Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 20:4-6.


Satan gets kicked out of heaven perhaps at mid-point, not the seventh trumpet. The judgments and the background information are not presented sequentially. For example, Revelation 12 started before the birth of Jesus and continues until the last days of the Tribulation, when the non- sealed Christians (as in, those who aren't among the 144,000 Jews) are martyred by the government of the beast/false prophet.

This is how I see it:
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4
Year 5 - Seal 5
Year 6 - Seal 6
144,000 Jews sealed then:
Year 7 - Seal 7 {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, ... Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}
Return of Christ and (first) Resurrection-Rapture
Millennial Reign
Second Resurrection
White Throne Judgment for the wicked of all time and the righteous (Christians) of the millennium.


Check out how the seventh trumpet is described. He has reigned. He is rewarding His servants. There is the same basic description in the seventh bowl "It is finished" and the same plagues. There isn't 42 months after the seventh trumpet/bowl. They are the end.



You don't want to read it. "That Day" doesn't have to be anyways here else. I showed you how it's in 2 Thessalonians 2, referring to the return of Christ and the gathering or rapture of the Church--after the revealing of the Antichrist and the great apostasy.

If you want to insist in your own mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a secret pre-first resurrection (the first resurrection of Revelation 20 includes the beheaded of the Tribulation), there's nothing I can say.

Did you ever look up the Greek word translated as "first" resurrection?

I hope you understand, there will be forever and ever only TWO resurrections; one for the just, and one for the unjust; or a PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection for the just and a "second death" resurrection for all the rest.

Therefore, in which of these two resurrections was Jesus the "firstfruits" of?
 
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iamlamad

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We completely agree, Bible2+. It breaks my heart thinking about most of America facing the Tribulation with a pre-tribulation rapture mindset. I sincerly believe this foundation (and the other non-biblical views of Revelation) will lead many to be among the foolish virgins of Jesus' parable, unable to endure in their faith until He comes "late".

The pre-tribulation rapture conviction presented unquestioned in many homes and churches in America has trickled down from the modern theologians. Several of the otherwise best seminaries in the United States have pre-tribulation rapture in their doctrinal statements. Some I'm aware of require their professors to agree (internally) to the full doctrinal statement every six months or year in order to continue teaching there. (How many professors are going to seek the truth if in doing so they might lose their jobs?) Some seminaries prohibit students from voicing anything at the school about their other-than-pre-tribulation-rapture views (I know this from experience).

I want to warn everyone I can--my pastor, my friends, and people I don't know. I spent about four years researching and writing a "paper" on why I believe in the post-tribulation resurrection rapture and why I think it's dangerous for Christians to assume a pre-tribulation rapture (especially). Now my pastor and up to two of his friends have copies to read. He was amazed I wrote so much, but I wanted to be thorough and the Bible has a lot to say. Now that I've written it, I want to publish it sometime. Traditional publishers expect a platform (certain number of individuals following you who are projected to buy your book) most people achieve through social media. I don't think the open social media is the right place to discuss prophecy for the Church. I'm praying and open to what God has in mind, even if that means speaking in churches (would have terrified my younger self... still does, a little, but I've also seen God speak well through me when I wanted to share the gospel--I was so passionate they hear, I created the speaking opportunity for myself and I was too focused to be nervous). He'll show me in time. :)

Actually, the problem with the foolish virgins was a shortage of oil. I believe the oil there represents the Holy Spirit. I am convinced all ten were born again, as they had lamps lit, and our born again spirit "is the candle of the Lord." So why were 5 left behind? They were SHORT on the oil of the Holy Spirit.

We know that the born again experience gives us the Holy Spirit within, but MOST OF THE CHURCH here in the USA don't understand that the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit gives us the Holy Spirit UPON as the anointing. Why is it much of the church has disobeyed God and ignored His command to receive this mighty baptism?

With the Holy Spirit within as in being born again, and the Holy Spirit upon as filled with the Spirit, these people will have NO shortage of oil.
 
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iamlamad

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Revelation 11:18 (GNT) The heathen were filled with rage, because the time for your anger has come, the time for the dead to be judged. The time has come to reward your servants, the prophets, and all your people, all who have reverence for you, great and small alike. The time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth!"

Here's Revelation 11:18. God is about to reward the church.

How is this possible for the church to receive it's reward if the church is on earth dying in the tribulation especially when the time of His wrath has come?

There's only one place the church can be in order to receive this reward.

Matthew 6:20 English Standard Version
but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

.
I see Post Trib STILL don't understand John's chronology.

Good example. Our rewards will be passed out in heaven. And posttribbers will miss the marriage and supper.
 
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bibletruth469

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is obedience a "works" issue?

There are none righteous not even one, except for those who have salvation in Christ and they are declared righteous through Christ. Obedience is not the issue, salvation is and I believe that all the truly saved people will be caught up at the rapture. Only God knows each individual heart. We are not to judge, however the Holy Spirit can draw a person to be saved. Each person has to make that decision . in the end, everyone will have to make an account and bow down and declare that Jesus Christ is Lord.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Thanks for pointing out Revelation 1:5-6. But thinking that office for His people is in heaven and in their transformed bodies, is a wrong assumption, totally refuted by Revelation 5:10 And by Isaiah 66:21
The beginning of Revelation 20 does not state that those saints receive their incorruptible bodies in the "first resurrection", nor does it state that those of the "first resurrection" are the same persons which are physically encamped about by the nations gathered to battle.

Bible2 is a good, if a little longwinded, expositor of prophecy. But he surely doesn't always get it right!
Placing the G/M war of Ezekiel 38/39 at the end of the Millennium, when another, similar attack will happen, is an error and it is impossible for the 7 year clean up as described, to occur into eternity.
I really appreciate the way he cites verses in parentheses. It flows very naturally and I am finding myself adopting that style in a hurry.
 
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keras

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The beginning of Revelation 20 does not state that those saints receive their incorruptible bodies in the "first resurrection", nor does it state that those of the "first resurrection" are the same persons which are physically encamped about by the nations gathered to battle.
You are jumping to the beginning of the 1000 years reign of Jesus, when He will be the High priest and King over the world.
What the prophesies of Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:21 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 are saying is, there will be a Temple once again in Jerusalem and the Lord's righteous people will be in the Holy Land, before the Return. All similar to what was originally established in Solomon's day.
This is confirmed by many prophesies and by what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11...what happened to the ancient Israelites was symbolic and was an example for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
 
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iamlamad

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There are none righteous not even one, except for those who have salvation in Christ and they are declared righteous through Christ. Obedience is not the issue, salvation is and I believe that all the truly saved people will be caught up at the rapture. Only God knows each individual heart. We are not to judge, however the Holy Spirit can draw a person to be saved. Each person has to make that decision . in the end, everyone will have to make an account and bow down and declare that Jesus Christ is Lord.
What then or who then are the 5 foolish virgins who did have lamps lit, signifying they did have oil?
 
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Riberra

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What then or who then are the 5 foolish virgins who did have lamps lit, signifying they did have oil?
As someone else stated (not exactly like this) in a previous post....the 5 foolish virgins expected to be raptured in Heaven for a 7 years marriage feast before the true and only coming of Jesus yet to come...so they falled short on oil.
 
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ivebeenshown

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You are jumping to the beginning of the 1000 years reign of Jesus, when He will be the High priest and King over the world.
Jesus is already our High Priest forever (Hebrews 5:6-10, Hebrews 8:1-2) and the prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5.)

What the prophesies of Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:21 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 are saying is, there will be a Temple once again in Jerusalem and the Lord's righteous people will be in the Holy Land, before the Return. All similar to what was originally established in Solomon's day.
Isaiah 66:21 was speaking of Christians. We are priests in Christ (Revelation 1:6) and we are built up a priesthood for God (1 Peter 2:5-10.) Ezekiel received a prophetic vision of the building which we are, the New Jerusalem, a temple made not by the labor of hands, continuously offering sacrifices of praise to God. Jesus himself is the foundation.

This is confirmed by many prophesies and by what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11...what happened to the ancient Israelites was symbolic and was an example for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
I don't understand how what Paul was saying applies to Christ reinstituting a physical temple on earth, when Paul most extensively wrote about how God has made a new, better covenant that does not need continual sacrifice of flesh, and how the old covenant has waxed and decayed.
 
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BABerean2

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I am convinced all ten were born again

In all of the parables from Matthew chapter 25 there are two groups.

Those saved and those lost.



2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him,Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.)



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


There will be no Second Chances. You are either sealed or you are not.

However, you are attempting to force the text to fit John Darby's doctrine.

The Bridegroom only returns one time at His "parousia" or Second Coming.
.
 
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